4 votes

The U.S. Senate coronavirus legislation is a sentence of unprecedented economic inequality and corporate control over our politics that will resonate for a generation

29 comments

  1. [9]
    envy
    Link
    The democrats are dropping the ball on a number of key fronts. PPE & Ventilators for hospitals- the lack of action here is unconscionable. Country wide lockdown is needed. No mail in voting...

    The democrats are dropping the ball on a number of key fronts.

    1. PPE & Ventilators for hospitals- the lack of action here is unconscionable.

    2. Country wide lockdown is needed.

    3. No mail in voting country wide? Really?

    4. No clear voice from Democrats. Trump is lying. To the American people. People are dying as a result.

    6 votes
    1. [7]
      dubteedub
      Link Parent
      The stimulus bill includes $100 billion for hospitals and healthcare systems, including money for more personal and protective equipment, testing supplies, and new construction to house patients....

      PPE & Ventilators for hospitals- the lack of action here is unconscionable.

      The stimulus bill includes $100 billion for hospitals and healthcare systems, including money for more personal and protective equipment, testing supplies, and new construction to house patients.


      Country wide lockdown is needed.

      That would need to be conducted by the President from what I understand. Not sure how this is the Democrats fault when the two largest D states, California and New York, have been under lock down for some time already.


      No mail in voting country wide? Really?

      The stimulus includes $400 million for elections. It is not enough and the Democrats fought for more, but with a GOP-controlled Senate and Presidency, their options are limited. This is why elections matter.

      The Senate language, which faces a vote in the House as early as Thursday, does not include any of the mandates that Democrats had hoped to impose on states as a condition of receiving the money. Those include requiring them to make mail-in voting available to everyone and, if an election is held during a national emergency, sending a mail-in ballot to every registered voter.

      Democrats had argued that the mandates were necessary to ensure equal access to the polls during the pandemic. Several lawmakers said Wednesday that $400 million was a good start — but also said they would not stop pushing for additional funding.

      It looks like this is a fight the Democrats will be continuing.


      No clear voice from Democrats. Trump is lying. To the American people. People are dying as a result.

      Seems to me like it would certainly be easier if Bernie would drop out and let Biden take the lead of the party. Instead Bernie is dragging out a primary election he has already lost, wasting money and resources on both sides, and leaving the Biden campaign in limbo as the want to transition to the general election.

      7 votes
      1. envy
        Link Parent
        There is a supply constraint. I see this as largely being inflationary. Do you not think direct government action centrally directing who should divert manufacturing capacity to PPE, ventilators...

        The stimulus bill includes $100 billion for hospitals and healthcare systems, including money for more personal and protective equipment, testing supplies, and new construction to house patients.

        There is a supply constraint. I see this as largely being inflationary. Do you not think direct government action centrally directing who should divert manufacturing capacity to PPE, ventilators and testing supplies would be beneficial?

        For your other points, I don't see a clear voice on how democrats would be more proactive and transparent. It is the oppositions job to forcefully advocate for a better way of doing things.

      2. [5]
        Kuromantis
        Link Parent
        I personally agree, but he has said something.

        Seems to me like it would certainly be easier if Bernie would drop out and let Biden take the lead of the party. Instead Bernie is dragging out a primary election he has already lost, wasting money and resources on both sides, and leaving the Biden campaign in limbo as the want to transition to the general election.

        I personally agree, but he has said something.

        1. [4]
          dubteedub
          Link Parent
          Yes, I understand Bernie is dead-set on dragging out this primary as long as possible. The Bernie campaign was banking on a blow-out performance in the last debate with Biden, with many online...

          Yes, I understand Bernie is dead-set on dragging out this primary as long as possible. The Bernie campaign was banking on a blow-out performance in the last debate with Biden, with many online saying he was going to show that he has dementia or is incapable of handling a debate. Instead, Biden held his own and even won the debate according to many polls. Then Bernie got blown out of the water in Florida, Illinois, and Arizona.

          It is clear at this point that there is no path to victory for Bernie. He would have to win more than 60% of all remaining delegates and win every remaining state by huge margins. It just is not happening.

          To me, this feels like a repeat of 2016. The Bernie campaign and his supporters are double and tripling down on conspiracy theories about health or rigged elections.

          1 vote
          1. [3]
            Gaywallet
            Link Parent
            What? How is staying in the race equivalent to conspiracy theories and rigged elections?

            To me, this feels like a repeat of 2016. The Bernie campaign and his supporters are double and tripling down on conspiracy theories about health or rigged elections.

            What? How is staying in the race equivalent to conspiracy theories and rigged elections?

            2 votes
            1. [2]
              dubteedub
              Link Parent
              In 2016, many Bernie supporters pushed conspiracy theories about Hillary's health and that Bernie had to stay in the race in case she died. The same messages are being pushed now about Biden, that...

              In 2016, many Bernie supporters pushed conspiracy theories about Hillary's health and that Bernie had to stay in the race in case she died. The same messages are being pushed now about Biden, that he has dementia, that he has coronavirus, that he is actually dead and his video messages are just pre-recorded. The conspiracies are endless and are used as reasoning why Bernie should stay in this.

              The belief that the DNC somehow rigged the millions of more votes against Bernie is also just as strong now as it was in 2016 and is fueling many supporters hate for the Democratic Party and a belief that Biden is just the same as Trump.

              In the wake of Joe Biden's sweeping victories on Super Tuesday, a very odd pushback began among online forces supportive of Bernie Sanders (and fomented by President Donald Trump and his loyal allies) that the whole process has somehow been "rigged" against him.

              Hashtags like "#RiggedDNC" and "#RiggedPrimary" were trending on Twitter throughout the early morning hours of Wednesday as it became more and more clear that the former vice president had won in places like Massachusetts, Minnesota and Texas that were presumed to be Sanders strongholds.

              2 votes
              1. Gaywallet
                Link Parent
                Okay but how is that related to him staying in the race? This seems like a nonsequitir to me.

                Okay but how is that related to him staying in the race? This seems like a nonsequitir to me.

                5 votes
    2. Kuromantis
      Link Parent
      TIL the Democrats are accelerationists. Unfortunately it's not gonna work like in 2008.

      TIL the Democrats are accelerationists. Unfortunately it's not gonna work like in 2008.

  2. [20]
    skybrian
    Link
    This is a bit out of date, since the Democrats did make sure there's more oversight of the corporate bailout funds. It's also making a victory look like a defeat, unnecessarily. These were...

    This is a bit out of date, since the Democrats did make sure there's more oversight of the corporate bailout funds.

    It's also making a victory look like a defeat, unnecessarily. These were hard-fought negotations.

    4 votes
    1. [19]
      NaraVara
      Link Parent
      There is a wonderful tradition in American political journalism in which only the Democratic party has any agency at all. Even if the Democrats control no branches of the government, everything is...

      There is a wonderful tradition in American political journalism in which only the Democratic party has any agency at all.

      Even if the Democrats control no branches of the government, everything is all their fault. Even if 98% of the Democrats go one way and, like, 2 guys flake off it's a sign that "The Democrats" are just the same as the Republicans.

      7 votes
      1. [18]
        JamesTeaKirk
        Link Parent
        They aren't the same about everything, but they also refuse to leverage their positions in the way Republicans do, which makes them seem like they agree with Republicans. Why are Democrats...

        They aren't the same about everything, but they also refuse to leverage their positions in the way Republicans do, which makes them seem like they agree with Republicans. Why are Democrats continuing to vote for the budgets that are funding the Iraq war? If the Republicans had a serious moral problem with the budget, they would shut the government down for months.

        1 vote
        1. [13]
          NaraVara
          Link Parent
          Republicans like shutting the government down for months because their explicit aim is to hamstring the effectiveness and utility of the government, which protracted and frequent shut-downs end up...

          If the Republicans had a serious moral problem with the budget, they would shut the government down for months.

          Republicans like shutting the government down for months because their explicit aim is to hamstring the effectiveness and utility of the government, which protracted and frequent shut-downs end up doing. If you actually care about the welfare of the people in line at the bank, it wouldn't make much sense for you to take them hostage and start making demands that you know won't be met.

          And what's more, whenever Republicans DO shut the government down, they end up losing that fight anyway. So it's not even an effective strategy globally, just locally for the handful of fringe nutcase districts that do it. Shutdowns have seriously damaged the Republican brand overall, they've just empowered the nutcases in the party at everyone else's expense.

          Why are Democrats continuing to vote for the budgets that are funding the Iraq war?

          These budgets go through omnibus spending bills. It's called an omnibus bill because it's a spending bill that covers all the things. They vote for the budget because it's still the policy of the United States government to continue prosecuting that war and the budget is just the funding to execute on that policy. They could go for broke on it and end up defunding things like the Defense Health Agency and basically every heavy manufacturing and semiconductor producer in the country, but that's not exactly a winning gambit. Ending a war usually means a drawdown of forces and an organized process of pulling people out and cleaning up after ourselves. You can't just decide "No money, figure it out" and expect the war to just end. If the President is still committed to seeing it through, they'll just move the money in from somewhere else.

          4 votes
          1. [12]
            JamesTeaKirk
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            I would like to see the data that supports this. Where is that policy explicitly defined? How would that policy be changed?

            And what's more, whenever Republicans DO shut the government down, they end up losing that fight anyway. So it's not even an effective strategy globally, just locally for the handful of fringe nutcase districts that do it.

            I would like to see the data that supports this.

            They vote for the budget because it's still the policy of the United States government to continue prosecuting that war and the budget is just the funding to execute on that policy.

            Where is that policy explicitly defined? How would that policy be changed?

            1. [9]
              NaraVara
              Link Parent
              This is well known enough to be conventional wisdom: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-government-shutdown-effect-big-in-the-short-term-small-after-that/ Out in the real world, there are...

              I would like to see the data that supports this.

              This is well known enough to be conventional wisdom: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-government-shutdown-effect-big-in-the-short-term-small-after-that/

              Where is that policy explicitly defined? How would that policy be changed?

              Out in the real world, there are troops stationed in Iraq. Regardless of what changes you make on paper, it still has to be executed by a whole chain of command in reality. This isn't an "explicitly defined policy" so much as a brute fact about how governments work. When you have an executive and a 535 person legislature who have to form a consensus about changing course, it ends up being kind of hard to make everyone agree on what to change or how to change things.

              2 votes
              1. [8]
                JamesTeaKirk
                Link Parent
                I think we disagree about what "conventional wisdom" means. It seems like you're trying to suggest that I'm ignoring something obvious but the article you linked explicitly says that there is not...

                This is well known enough to be conventional wisdom

                I think we disagree about what "conventional wisdom" means. It seems like you're trying to suggest that I'm ignoring something obvious but the article you linked explicitly says that there is not a lot of data to go on. Regardless it seems to be generally true so I concede the point about outright shutting the government down.

                3 votes
                1. [7]
                  NaraVara
                  Link Parent
                  Because it's only happened a handful of times in history, so it's not really a phenomenon that's subject to being studied with "data."

                  but the article you linked explicitly says that there is not a lot of data to go on.

                  Because it's only happened a handful of times in history, so it's not really a phenomenon that's subject to being studied with "data."

                  1. [6]
                    JamesTeaKirk
                    Link Parent
                    I was referring to the polling data being examined in the article you linked. The article mentions that part of the challenge in examining the efficacy shutdowns is the lack of "polling with which...

                    I was referring to the polling data being examined in the article you linked. The article mentions that part of the challenge in examining the efficacy shutdowns is the lack of "polling with which to examine the political effects of prior shutdowns."

                    1. [5]
                      NaraVara
                      Link Parent
                      If you want to make a general statement about shutdowns, you'd need a bigger N than 4 previous shutdowns with tons of confounding variables for each.

                      If you want to make a general statement about shutdowns, you'd need a bigger N than 4 previous shutdowns with tons of confounding variables for each.

                      1. [4]
                        JamesTeaKirk
                        Link Parent
                        I don't think I made a general statement about shutdowns. I asked why the Democrats don't employ shutdowns and you said that it is conventional wisdom that shutdowns are ineffective.

                        I don't think I made a general statement about shutdowns. I asked why the Democrats don't employ shutdowns and you said that it is conventional wisdom that shutdowns are ineffective.

                        1. [3]
                          NaraVara
                          Link Parent
                          Not just ineffective. Likely to backfire.

                          Not just ineffective. Likely to backfire.

                          1. [2]
                            JamesTeaKirk
                            Link Parent
                            Still don't understand where you're getting that from. From the article you posted:

                            Still don't understand where you're getting that from. From the article you posted:

                            Indeed, prior shutdowns haven’t had long-term electoral implications. Republicans recovered on the generic ballot by February 1996, just a month after the final shutdown of that period ended. And in the elections later that year, they held onto their majorities in both the House and Senate. Clinton, meanwhile, recovered his lost support by March 1996. He would go on to easily win reelection later in 1996.

                            Basically, America put the same people who shut the government down back in office.

                            The 2013 shutdown tells the same story. Despite losing the blame game, Republicans jumped to a lead on the generic ballot by late November 2013 — their first of the year. In the 2014 midterms, they expanded their majority in the House and won back the Senate. Meanwhile, Obama continued a long-term decline in his approval ratings in the months following the 2013 shutdown, but recovered to his pre-shutdown approval level by April 2014.

                            1 vote
                            1. NaraVara
                              Link Parent

                              Republicans like shutting the government down for months because their explicit aim is to hamstring the effectiveness and utility of the government, which protracted and frequent shut-downs end up doing. If you actually care about the welfare of the people in line at the bank, it wouldn't make much sense for you to take them hostage and start making demands that you know won't be met.

                              1 vote
            2. [2]
              dubteedub
              Link Parent
              Googling Republicans lose shutdown fight literally brings up hundreds of articles from throughout the Trump presidency. It was a huge news story for months during the last shutdown pushed by Trump...

              I would like to see the data that supports this.

              Googling Republicans lose shutdown fight literally brings up hundreds of articles from throughout the Trump presidency. It was a huge news story for months during the last shutdown pushed by Trump over the border wall.

              Yes, it is very much conventional wisdom that government shutdowns is a losing strategy, and would be even moreso for the party that actually believes in the government and wants to see it continue functioning.

              1 vote
              1. JamesTeaKirk
                Link Parent
                Okay. It just seems like you're using the term "conventional wisdom" to suggest that I'm an idiot (which is fine, I'd just prefer directness over passive aggressiveness). I asked a question, it...

                Okay. It just seems like you're using the term "conventional wisdom" to suggest that I'm an idiot (which is fine, I'd just prefer directness over passive aggressiveness). I asked a question, it was answered, and I conceded the point. It was not "conventional wisdom" to me.

                2 votes
        2. [4]
          skybrian
          Link Parent
          You're claiming there is some better strategy that they refuse to use. Why are you so confident that you understand U.S. legislative negotiations better than the people who were actually there? We...

          You're claiming there is some better strategy that they refuse to use. Why are you so confident that you understand U.S. legislative negotiations better than the people who were actually there? We are only getting sketchy media reports, and even the people who are deep into it don't know everything that's going on.

          I think even historians with the benefit of hindsight will have trouble figuring out whether there was a missed opportunity to negotiate a better deal. Alternate history is kind of hard to prove either way.

          1 vote
          1. [3]
            JamesTeaKirk
            Link Parent
            I never said that I understand the process better than them. I don't think they want to end the war. That's the problem, they aren't acting as representatives for us. I'm not sure what the...

            I never said that I understand the process better than them. I don't think they want to end the war. That's the problem, they aren't acting as representatives for us. I'm not sure what the solution is in your book, but I'm not going to praise everything my party does just because it's convenient for them politically.

            1. [2]
              skybrian
              Link Parent
              Okay, yes, I think I am misunderstanding you. I thought we were talking about the coronavirus legislation but it seems you're talking about something else?

              Okay, yes, I think I am misunderstanding you. I thought we were talking about the coronavirus legislation but it seems you're talking about something else?

              2 votes
              1. JamesTeaKirk
                Link Parent
                Yeah I suppose I'm on a bit of a tangent and I lost track of the OP. I was responding to NaraVara talking about the pattern of Democrats being blamed for things and I brought up the Iraq war. I...

                Yeah I suppose I'm on a bit of a tangent and I lost track of the OP. I was responding to NaraVara talking about the pattern of Democrats being blamed for things and I brought up the Iraq war.

                I think the stimulus bill is terrible but I agree with your point; It appears that the Democrats did what they could here.

                1 vote