31 votes

An Idaho woman and her son have been charged with kidnapping after prosecutors say they took the son’s minor girlfriend to Oregon to get an abortion

11 comments

  1. [9]
    GenuinelyCrooked
    Link
    Assuming the court documents are correct and the quote about her being happy to be pregnant is not cherry-picked, it seems like in this situation it's actually pretty reasonable for these two to...

    Assuming the court documents are correct and the quote about her being happy to be pregnant is not cherry-picked, it seems like in this situation it's actually pretty reasonable for these two to face charges. Idaho shouldn't deny anyone the right to an abortion, but neither should individuals be able to coerce someone into having one.

    17 votes
    1. [4]
      pallas
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      This is, unfortunately, a situation where, if the charges were brought in a jurisdiction where abortion was legal, the legitimacy, or more perhaps fundamentally, honesty of the charges would not...
      • Exemplary

      This is, unfortunately, a situation where, if the charges were brought in a jurisdiction where abortion was legal, the legitimacy, or more perhaps fundamentally, honesty of the charges would not be questionable: we could trust that the accused might be guilty or innocent, but that when the prosecutors claim rape, they mean rape, when they claim CSAM, they mean CSAM, and when they claim a forced abortion, they mean a forced abortion, within the understandings of a reasonable person. Yet because the jurisdiction bans abortion as a particularly intense political issue, and is likely quite sexually repressive, everything ends up needing to be read much more skeptically, and even if the charges are legitimate, people end up trusting them less.

      Here, on the one hand, it might be a case of a teenager who was exploited, raped, had sexually explicit images made without consent, and was forced to have an abortion. Were this another jurisdiction, we could at least know that is what the accusation was. But here, it is also possible, on the other extreme, that the accusation is actually that two teenagers, with two years age difference, were in a sexual relationship (the rape), had been sending images to each other consensually (the CSAM), and had a discussion where the girl decided to have an abortion without her parents' consent (the kidnapping). In a particularly extreme case, it's even potentially possible that, if the state is sufficiently regressive, the girl could be speaking under the threat of being charged with producing CSAM herself. If these are what the prosecutors actually mean, given the information in the article, it appears that the mother and son may have already essentially confessed to being guilty of them.

      And elements of the story here make the prosecutors' suggestions seem a bit suspect. Notably, the choice of second-degree kidnapping in Idaho appears to include the case where the girl involved consented, but her parents did not (or did not know), while, had rape been involved, it appears they would have been able make a charge of first-degree kidnapping. The rape and CSAM charges seem to be added to the article almost as afterthoughts, in a single sentence, almost as if the prosecutors would prefer that attention not be drawn to them, when it would seem like those would make the situation far more severe and easy to explain. The article appears to skirt around whether the girl claimed that the abortion was not consensual, or that there was sexual abuse involved, only directly stating that her mother claimed these.

      I'm reminded of the abortion charges where Facebook drew criticism for releasing information to the state, and Facebook responded with the claim that they had been tricked, with the authorities involved telling them that it was a matter of urgent child endangerment (with the authorities not mentioning that they meant an "unborn child"). In that case, if I recall, the actual accusation was for something that would be illegal in even jurisdictions with liberal laws around abortion, yet the politics involved, and the approach the authorities took, made the public trust the accusation less, and brought political outrage where there could have been agreement.

      The sad thing is that this case could well be, may even likely be, a clear case of severe abuse and exploitation of a teenager. But because of the jurisdiction and the politics involved, people will read this article and legitimately be skeptical.

      32 votes
      1. [3]
        sparksbet
        Link Parent
        This is consistent with Idaho state law's legal definition of kidnapping -- it includes: (I omitted the other 3 ways one can be guilty of kidnapping for space, but you can check the website to see...

        Notably, the choice of second-degree kidnapping in Idaho appears to include the case where the girl involved consented, but her parents did not (or did not know)

        This is consistent with Idaho state law's legal definition of kidnapping -- it includes:

        18-4501. Kidnaping defined. Every person who wilfully: (...)
        2. Leads, takes, entices away or detains a child under the age of sixteen (16) years, with intent to keep or conceal it from its custodial parent, guardian or other person having lawful care or control thereof, or with intent to steal any article upon the person of the child; or,
        (...) is guilty of kidnaping.

        (I omitted the other 3 ways one can be guilty of kidnapping for space, but you can check the website to see I didn't omit anything to change the meaning)

        while, had rape been involved, it appears they would have been able make a charge of first-degree kidnapping

        The requirements for first-degree kidnapping in Idaho are as follows:

        18-4502. First degree kidnapping — Ransom. Any kidnapping committed for the purpose of obtaining money, property or any other thing of value for the return or disposition of such person kidnapped, or committed for the purpose of raping, or committing serious bodily injury upon the person kidnapped, or committing any lewd and lascivious act upon any child under the age of sixteen (16) years with the intent of arousing, appealing to, or gratifying the lust or passions or sexual desires of any person, shall be kidnapping in the first degree.

        IANAL but it appears here that the kidnapping needs to have been for the purpose of raping or performing lewd/lascivious acts on the girl. No one contends that here. The kidnapping was for the purpose of bringing her out of state for an abortion. It seems clear to me that it thus doesn't meet the requirements for 1st degree kidnapping.

        The rape and CSAM charges seem to be added to the article almost as afterthoughts, in a single sentence, almost as if the prosecutors would prefer that attention not be drawn to them, when it would seem like those would make the situation far more severe and easy to explain.

        It's very unclear to me how you conclude that the prosecutors would rather not draw your attention to these charges based on how much attention is paid to them in this news article that was not wrriten by the prosecutors.

        The rape and CSAM charges seem to be for acts that occured more or less independently of the kidnapping, aside from the fact that she got pregnant being the impetus for the kidnapping. Since she was 15 and he was 18, any sexual intercourse is rape according to Idaho law unless they were married, even if she consented. So the statutory rape isn't particularly newsworthy by comparison and doesn't really make the kidnapping charges any more severe imo.

        7 votes
        1. [2]
          ComicSans72
          Link Parent
          Lol. Under that definition of 2nd degree I would guess every kid in the world has been kidnapped multiple times. It's basically any time you go somewhere and don't tell your parents.

          Lol. Under that definition of 2nd degree I would guess every kid in the world has been kidnapped multiple times. It's basically any time you go somewhere and don't tell your parents.

          4 votes
          1. sparksbet
            Link Parent
            yeah I think it's probably intended to target kidnapping a kid by someone they know so they may go willingly but obvs still have been kidnapped... the words as written seem too vague on my...

            yeah I think it's probably intended to target kidnapping a kid by someone they know so they may go willingly but obvs still have been kidnapped... the words as written seem too vague on my layman's reading but perhaps there's caselaw that makes the definition more specific than it seems. IANAL but that sort of thing is what often happens w law wording.

            6 votes
    2. [4]
      Promonk
      Link Parent
      I don't believe it's within Idaho's jurisdiction to prosecute this though. Transporting a minor across state lines without parental consent is a federal crime, and should be prosecuted federally....

      I don't believe it's within Idaho's jurisdiction to prosecute this though. Transporting a minor across state lines without parental consent is a federal crime, and should be prosecuted federally. The alleged sexual assault and CSAM is well within the state's purview, though.

      5 votes
      1. [3]
        sparksbet
        Link Parent
        ...This seems off to me. I'm no expert here so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but just because kidnapping is illegal on a federal level doesn't invalidate state laws against kidnapping. I'm...

        Transporting a minor across state lines without parental consent is a federal crime, and should be prosecuted federally.

        ...This seems off to me. I'm no expert here so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but just because kidnapping is illegal on a federal level doesn't invalidate state laws against kidnapping. I'm under the impression that federal laws only preempt state laws under certain circumstances (such as when there's a conflict between them, when Congress has explicitly said so, or when the federal laws are so pervasive that they occupy the entire field of law). I don't see any reason Idaho can't charge the accused with kidnapping under these circumstances.

        1 vote
        1. [2]
          Promonk
          Link Parent
          Perhaps for kidnapping, but transport across state lines is explicitly a federal matter precisely because it involves multiple states' jurisdictions.

          Perhaps for kidnapping, but transport across state lines is explicitly a federal matter precisely because it involves multiple states' jurisdictions.

          2 votes
          1. sparksbet
            Link Parent
            The state crime there is kidnapping though. It also being a federal crime bc of crossing state lines just means it could also be prosecuted federally, right? not that they can't prosecute it...

            The state crime there is kidnapping though. It also being a federal crime bc of crossing state lines just means it could also be prosecuted federally, right? not that they can't prosecute it within the state.

            1 vote
  2. [2]
    Gekko
    Link
    Those are some serious charges to just tack on the end, oregonlive Also, it's weird that the girl's mother just assumed her daughter was at her father's place for months without bothering to check?

    Prosecutors have since charged the mother with second-degree kidnapping and the son with the same charge, along with rape and three counts of producing child sexually exploitative material after authorities said that the boyfriend captured sexually explicit video and photos of the girl.

    Those are some serious charges to just tack on the end, oregonlive

    Also, it's weird that the girl's mother just assumed her daughter was at her father's place for months without bothering to check?

    14 votes
    1. boxer_dogs_dance
      Link Parent
      I would love to know the backstory of the videos. Frequently but not always, those are consensual but still illegal because of age.

      I would love to know the backstory of the videos. Frequently but not always, those are consensual but still illegal because of age.

      7 votes