Why would it be? Decriminalizing drugs doesn't mean we want them sold at every corner store. And I doubt that a young person in NZ would end up in prison over tobacco once it's banned.
I also don't think being supportive of a ban like this is at odds with otherwise supporting the decriminalization of other substances or harm reduction.
Why would it be? Decriminalizing drugs doesn't mean we want them sold at every corner store. And I doubt that a young person in NZ would end up in prison over tobacco once it's banned.
Might do. Might not. Worth finding out, don't you think? It seems like a slightly weird market to exist. I mean sure, for weed. But weed is fun. It's worth taking a risk and paying over the odds...
Might do. Might not. Worth finding out, don't you think?
It seems like a slightly weird market to exist. I mean sure, for weed. But weed is fun. It's worth taking a risk and paying over the odds for. But tobacco is just... nasty. Even when I smoked that was abundantly clear. Nobody who smokes any amount can be under any illusion that it's not bad for them. Almost everything about smoking is unpleasant, and the one half-decent bit - nicotine - can be easily had from a vape which is easily available.
Anecdotally I feel like the Kids These Days are much better about knowing how bad smoking is and not being all that interested in it. I live near a high school and the number of kids I see walking home and smoking is so small compared to how it was when I was their age. Obviously people still smoke. But maybe fewer of them now.
Yup, they even mention it in the article: I'm all for harm reduction, but people will do what people want to do. Lots of smokers start young, before they can buy cigarettes. So that first and even...
Yup, they even mention it in the article:
However, others have warned that the move may create a black market for tobacco - something the health ministry's official impact statement does acknowledge, noting "customs will need more resource to enforce border control".
I'm all for harm reduction, but people will do what people want to do. Lots of smokers start young, before they can buy cigarettes. So that first and even second generations of can't-smokers will still have access to cigarettes. And even once sales stop because all the can-smokers are dead, it's not like tobacco doesn't exist outside. Being an island nation certainly helps with keeping it off the islands, but smuggling isn't ever impossible.
That said, I did find this refreshing:
But in 2017 the country adopted vaping as a pathway to help smokers quit tobacco.
Though they admit that vaping isn't 100% safe either.
Hi suspended, I genuinely struggle to understand this concern. Is there a black market to sell alcohol to those legally underage? Because for the next 40-80 years, the sale of nicotine will still...
Hi suspended, I genuinely struggle to understand this concern.
Is there a black market to sell alcohol to those legally underage?
Because for the next 40-80 years, the sale of nicotine will still be legal in New Zealand, it's just the definition of underage that changes.
There absolutely was at my college. It wasn't a huge deal because alcohol was easy to obtain, but the people with 21+ IDs (real or fake) and cars could absolutely put some pressure on others,...
Is there a black market to sell alcohol to those legally underage?
There absolutely was at my college. It wasn't a huge deal because alcohol was easy to obtain, but the people with 21+ IDs (real or fake) and cars could absolutely put some pressure on others, because they controlled the supply of alcohol for house parties and that, in turn, affected club recruitment and funding.
I grew up in New Zealand. The same problem existed, but in high school. It's not a reason against having age limits. Also, the black market for underage alcohol is different from the black market...
I grew up in New Zealand. The same problem existed, but in high school. It's not a reason against having age limits.
Also, the black market for underage alcohol is different from the black market for other drugs, in terms of funding gangs.
Exactly. They should learn from the failed prohibition of alcohol in the US some 100 years ago. I even saw opinions stating that nothing helped organised crime in the US more than that ill-fated...
Exactly. They should learn from the failed prohibition of alcohol in the US some 100 years ago.
I even saw opinions stating that nothing helped organised crime in the US more than that ill-fated prohibition.
But that is the point, isn't it? Maori health is impacted by smoking more heavily already. Doing nothing is already bad. Increasing tobacco taxes just ended up punishing the Maori...
But that is the point, isn't it?
Maori health is impacted by smoking more heavily already. Doing nothing is already bad.
Increasing tobacco taxes just ended up punishing the Maori disproportionately. They just spent more money on smokes.
The new law attempts to discourage anyone born after 2008 getting addicted to nicotine.
It will likely adversely impact Maori disproportionately, in that they are more likely to be able to get cigarettes from their mums purse. But all other choices also impact Maori disproportionately, including doing nothing.
From an equality perspective, wont this law also impact those better off, such as those who head overseas for a few years?
As this article mentions, vaping is much more of a problem than cigarettes with younger generations. This article doesn't seem to mention one or another if vaping products are included in the...
As this article mentions, vaping is much more of a problem than cigarettes with younger generations. This article doesn't seem to mention one or another if vaping products are included in the tobacco ban or not.
Yikes. That's even worse than I thought. They should go after those products just as aggressively.
Smoking has already been widely replaced by vaping among teenage New Zealanders, and is also attracting many young people who would never have taken up smoking – according to surveying of 19,000 high school students this year, nearly 20% were vaping daily or several times a day, the majority with high nicotine doses. That’s compared to 3% of those aged 15-17 who smoked daily in 2018, or 13% who smoked a decade earlier.
Yikes. That's even worse than I thought. They should go after those products just as aggressively.
I'm unsure how to feel about this. If all the harmful byproducts of Vaping are removed, would we as a society be happy to have an addictive substance which is physically harmless available for...
I'm unsure how to feel about this. If all the harmful byproducts of Vaping are removed, would we as a society be happy to have an addictive substance which is physically harmless available for consumption? Could it become as accepted as caffeine? What if it were only available in slow release form or some way to minimise withdrawal?
On the face of it, I don't like the idea of having a highly addictive (and therefore dependence inducing) substance available for sale - even if there are no health side effects other than the addiction itself. But what if the addictive properties were able to be moderated while keeping the stimulant and anxiolytic effects?
Why would it be? Decriminalizing drugs doesn't mean we want them sold at every corner store. And I doubt that a young person in NZ would end up in prison over tobacco once it's banned.
Might do. Might not. Worth finding out, don't you think?
It seems like a slightly weird market to exist. I mean sure, for weed. But weed is fun. It's worth taking a risk and paying over the odds for. But tobacco is just... nasty. Even when I smoked that was abundantly clear. Nobody who smokes any amount can be under any illusion that it's not bad for them. Almost everything about smoking is unpleasant, and the one half-decent bit - nicotine - can be easily had from a vape which is easily available.
Anecdotally I feel like the Kids These Days are much better about knowing how bad smoking is and not being all that interested in it. I live near a high school and the number of kids I see walking home and smoking is so small compared to how it was when I was their age. Obviously people still smoke. But maybe fewer of them now.
Yup, they even mention it in the article:
I'm all for harm reduction, but people will do what people want to do. Lots of smokers start young, before they can buy cigarettes. So that first and even second generations of can't-smokers will still have access to cigarettes. And even once sales stop because all the can-smokers are dead, it's not like tobacco doesn't exist outside. Being an island nation certainly helps with keeping it off the islands, but smuggling isn't ever impossible.
That said, I did find this refreshing:
Though they admit that vaping isn't 100% safe either.
Hi suspended, I genuinely struggle to understand this concern.
Is there a black market to sell alcohol to those legally underage?
Because for the next 40-80 years, the sale of nicotine will still be legal in New Zealand, it's just the definition of underage that changes.
There absolutely was at my college. It wasn't a huge deal because alcohol was easy to obtain, but the people with 21+ IDs (real or fake) and cars could absolutely put some pressure on others, because they controlled the supply of alcohol for house parties and that, in turn, affected club recruitment and funding.
I grew up in New Zealand. The same problem existed, but in high school. It's not a reason against having age limits.
Also, the black market for underage alcohol is different from the black market for other drugs, in terms of funding gangs.
Yep, agreed. You asked:
and that's what I was responding to. The answer is, "yes."
Exactly. They should learn from the failed prohibition of alcohol in the US some 100 years ago.
I even saw opinions stating that nothing helped organised crime in the US more than that ill-fated prohibition.
Probably. Probation is never a good idea.
The restrictions have nothing to do with anything but your age.
Equality of consideration isn't sufficient to ensure equality of outcomes.
But that is the point, isn't it?
Maori health is impacted by smoking more heavily already. Doing nothing is already bad.
Increasing tobacco taxes just ended up punishing the Maori disproportionately. They just spent more money on smokes.
The new law attempts to discourage anyone born after 2008 getting addicted to nicotine.
It will likely adversely impact Maori disproportionately, in that they are more likely to be able to get cigarettes from their mums purse. But all other choices also impact Maori disproportionately, including doing nothing.
From an equality perspective, wont this law also impact those better off, such as those who head overseas for a few years?
As this article mentions, vaping is much more of a problem than cigarettes with younger generations. This article doesn't seem to mention one or another if vaping products are included in the tobacco ban or not.
Yikes. That's even worse than I thought. They should go after those products just as aggressively.
I'm unsure how to feel about this. If all the harmful byproducts of Vaping are removed, would we as a society be happy to have an addictive substance which is physically harmless available for consumption? Could it become as accepted as caffeine? What if it were only available in slow release form or some way to minimise withdrawal?
On the face of it, I don't like the idea of having a highly addictive (and therefore dependence inducing) substance available for sale - even if there are no health side effects other than the addiction itself. But what if the addictive properties were able to be moderated while keeping the stimulant and anxiolytic effects?