6 votes

A documentary on the Men's Rights movement

The recent post on why men are ignoring help and falling behind made me think of this documentary. Don't know who here might be interested, but it's certainly a lot to think about.

There's a documentary exploring the Mens Rights movement. It's far from perfect, but I think it definitely has some good points. Firstly, I'd recommend watching Cassie Jaye's (the creator of the doc) TEDx Talk about open-mindedness and listening (~15 Mins): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WMuzhQXJoY

Then there's the documentary itself (~2 hours): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7MkSpJk5tM

Cassie Jaye has posted a lot of the unedited and full interviews to her channel: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7HeX2SUI9v84DMIawkSBzLRANIc9RQ7t

7 comments

  1. [6]
    cfabbro
    (edited )
    Link
    Counterpoint and warning from The Village Voice: Warning: You Can’t Unsee ‘The Red Pill,’ the Documentary About a Filmmaker Who Learns to Love MRAs Also worth reading is the We Hunted the Mammoth...

    Counterpoint and warning from The Village Voice:
    Warning: You Can’t Unsee ‘The Red Pill,’ the Documentary About a Filmmaker Who Learns to Love MRAs

    Here’s a great example of how not to open your documentary. “After releasing my film in 2012 about marriage equality, I was at a loss of what topic to explore next,” says Cassie Jaye in the halting tones of a hostage reading her captors’ statement to the world. That comes at the start of her film The Red Pill, and the high drama of her search for a subject gets illustrated with the results of a web search. “I started to research this ‘rape culture,’ ” she tells us, each syllable so far from the next one that a tumbleweed could breeze through the gap.

    We literally see the words rape culture get typed into Google. “A website called A Voice for Men popped up,” she tells us. And then, for two agonizing hours, Jaye tumbles slowly down America’s stupidest rabbit hole, discovering that Men’s Rights Activists are actually just dudes who have been dicked over by a culture that punishes masculinity.

    Use Google yourself and you might come to different conclusions. Jaye’s star witness, A Voice for Men’s Paul Elam, plays the part in her interviews of a decent chap alarmed at the evidence of a crisis facing American men: Yes, men commit suicide more than women do, are more likely to drop out of college, and, when men are the victims of violence in a relationship, they do not have access to the same (threadbare, strained) network of shelters that women do. “We have video-game addiction, we have pornography addiction,” Elam points out, and a propagandist more adept than Jaye might not have included so much comic out-of-gas sputtering.

    I feel comfortable calling her “propagandist” because of my own “research” (ie. “reading the top search results”). Here’s something Elam wrote on A Voice for Men in 2010: “Should I be called to sit on a jury for a rape trial, I vow publicly to vote not guilty, even in the face of overwhelming evidence that the charges are true.” What excuse would any serious documentarian have for not asking Elam to explain that?

    You don’t even have to put in that tiny bit of online legwork to suspect that something’s hinky with Jaye’s film. (It’s a Kickstarter job, and A Voice for Men and Reddit’s most misogynistic MRA subs were active in the campaigns.) Jaye acknowledges in the opening and closing minutes that MRAs sometimes spew nasty garbage online, but she never presses them on this in her many interviews. Instead, she lets them moan about how hard it is to be a dude in 2016, endorsing their anecdotal complaints about unfair family courts, incidents of men being tricked into being fathers, and — I didn’t quite follow this one — one father’s conviction that the women who had custody of his son were systematically trying to make the boy fat. That story drags on forever, and Jaye cuts from it to footage of herself tooling around in her car, driving past a Supercuts.

    Like many amateurish Kickstarter docs, The Red Pill doesn’t always have visuals worth regarding on a screen, but I do cherish one flourish: an animated sequence of falling snowflakes, each with a different MRA complaint printed on it, meant to illustrate the movement’s diversity of grievances. There’s “Misandry”! There’s “Restraining Orders”! Even the metaphor is hilariously white.

    Some of the men’s complaints are upsetting for the reasons that the men think they’re upsetting. There’s no doubt that men do sometimes suffer mistreatment from the courts or from the women in their lives. What the film and the movement fail to demonstrate is any kind of systemic cause. Instead, the author of men’s troubles here is always that vague bugaboo feminism, which we’re told is designed to silence its opponents. (Is it even worth pointing out that being criticized for what you say is not the same as being denied your right to say it?) Jaye renounces her own feminist past toward the end of the film, the announcement delivered over video of her typing, then looking at a computer, then driving around some more.

    Jaye does film some feminist protesters at MRA events, letting them swear on camera a lot, trying to paint them as unreasonable — even as she elides the deep, disgusting, public unreasonableness of MRAs like Elam, who once claimed online that young women walk through life “with the equivalent of a I’M A STUPID, CONNIVING BITCH — PLEASE RAPE ME neon sign glowing above their empty little narcissistic heads.”

    “Why can’t men talk about their problems?” Elam asks Jaye’s camera in earnest, apparently unaware that he gets shouted at and pilloried not for identifying “problems” but for being a dick. Hey, Elam — men can talk about our problems. You’re one of them.

    Also: Thanks to David Futrelle’s invaluable site We Hunted the Mammoth for collecting Elam’s most horrible bleatings. And it’s worth pointing out that this movie is playing in two American theaters mostly so that outlets like this one get tricked into running reviews that, even if negative, confer some kind of legitimacy. I apologize for taking the bait.

    Also worth reading is the We Hunted the Mammoth article exposing just how absolutely disgusting Paul Elam is, the A Voice for Men founder who was featured in the documentary, and how horrible his Register-Her site was (which thankfully shut down in 2014, but much of the damage was likely already done to the women it targeted).

    Register-Her was a Fake “Offenders Registry” Run By Misogynists, Designed to Vilify and Intimidate Women

    Which featured some more choice quotes from Elam:

    In one post, Elam warned one critic of Register-Her that:

    I find you, as a feminist, to be a loathsome, vile piece of human garbage. I find you so pernicious and repugnant that the idea of fucking your shit up gives me an erection. …

    [Y]ou fucking moron. Your only real hope is to keep your mouth shut and pretend AVfM and register-her.com does not exist for as long as you can. Because, as you can see right now, anything you say or do will be thrown back in your face like holy water on a vampire.

    We are coming for you, and we are coming for all the liars out there that have been ruining people’s lives with impunity. …

    You are SO fucked.

    In a post announcing the site’s campaign against the University of Toronto protestors, Elam wrote this about one of his targets:

    We have her image and know her general location. We will identify her and profile her activity and name for public view.

    We will not stop there, or just with her. And while we will not publish our complete intent, we are dogged in our efforts. …

    We have no more sympathy for your agenda of hatred and exclusion than for a plantation owner’s rationale in the Antebellum South for justified ownership of another human being.


    TL;DR - Be wary of falling down this particular rabbit hole. The grievances of many MRAs, MGTOW and Manosphere members may seem totally reasonable on the surface, especially when they're in front of a camera or trying to recruit others to their cause... but there is often a very deep well of misogyny and violent hatred towards feminists that lies beneath their motivations/actions, which they may eventually try to drag you into. See also: GamerGate

    15 votes
    1. [3]
      rosco
      Link Parent
      Damn, thank you for posting this.

      Damn, thank you for posting this.

      6 votes
      1. [2]
        cfabbro
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        My pleasure. I have a particular passion for keeping track of the various alt-right movements after GamerGate partially suckered me into it. Thankfully, I didn't fall too far down that rabbit...

        My pleasure. I have a particular passion for keeping track of the various alt-right movements after GamerGate partially suckered me into it. Thankfully, I didn't fall too far down that rabbit hole, and never did anything I regret before I finally managed to see how misogynistic the movement and its proponents truly were... but it's something I still feel deeply ashamed of for ever having taken at face value, and so I want to help prevent others from falling for similarly hateful shit, if I can.

        6 votes
        1. rosco
          Link Parent
          I hear that. I think the earlier online specific alt-right content was new and a little easier to fall prey too. I remember being suggested Prager U stuff and taking quite a few videos before...

          I hear that. I think the earlier online specific alt-right content was new and a little easier to fall prey too. I remember being suggested Prager U stuff and taking quite a few videos before realizing there was a common, disturbing thread. Genuinely thought it was a University's online portal before doing research. Like you, I prod a little deeper now.

          3 votes
    2. elcuello
      Link Parent
      This seems like a good disclaimer when it comes to touchy subjects generally. I've seen the same signs in Qanon. Thank you for posting this.

      TL;DR - Be wary of falling down this particular rabbit hole. The grievances of many MRAs, MGTOW and Manosphere members may seem totally reasonable on the surface, especially when they're in front of a camera or trying to recruit others to their cause... but there is often a very deep well of misogyny and violent hatred towards feminists that lies beneath their motivations/actions, which they may eventually try to drag you into. See also: GamerGate

      This seems like a good disclaimer when it comes to touchy subjects generally. I've seen the same signs in Qanon. Thank you for posting this.

      4 votes
    3. NoblePath
      Link Parent
      It’s a shame she chose such toxic examples for her protagonists, because some of her other points are striking: men, especially men who ate not wildly successful,really do suffer a bias in family...

      It’s a shame she chose such toxic examples for her protagonists, because some of her other points are striking: men, especially men who ate not wildly successful,really do suffer a bias in family courts. Men are more often victims of non-sexual domestic violence, but have zero resources, a lot of cultural stigma, and a bias in courts. The woman in london in the documentary is real, and the issues she raises are real.

      See also established feminist personalities and institutions rejection of non-binary issues.

      2 votes
  2. herson
    Link
    It's funny how they almost get the point that we men are also affected by the patriarchy but then discharge all their rage and discomfort over women.

    It's funny how they almost get the point that we men are also affected by the patriarchy but then discharge all their rage and discomfort over women.

    7 votes