Strides, and back slides: A discussion on where women are, where we'd like to be, what we've lost
I am interested in hearing people's thoughts about where women have made great strides in progress of women rights/equality/equity vs where we've been stuck on progress.
I've been torn on how I've felt about when RBG said the Supreme Court would be equal once it had 9 women on it. Source because I do kind of understand the perspective of in history we've been "fine" with it being all male, so why cant the opposite be fine?
However at the same rate isn't that why we've been working hard on getting a seat at the table because we werent truly fine with it.
In some ways I've seen so much progress in my personal life and then I'll look at the statistics and see that only 10% of CEOs are women and 28% congress is women source
Yet we're about half if not slightly more than half the population. I feel like some progress has been rolled back as well, over the past couple years with the rise of extreme right wing ideology, and I feel like roe vs wade was a roll back in progress and we've stalled on increasing power. Then again nearly 50% women supported rolling it back, and I don't want to dimiss that perspective even though I adamantly disagree with it because for them it was progress.
I personally have been excited to see some local progress as the Wisconsin Bucks got their first female assistant coach. As well as glad to be part of one of the companies with a female CEO.
I'd really like to see a women president in the USA in my lifetime. That's I think the next big ceiling.
So what's some progress you've been glad to see?Anything local? and where do you worry we've stalled? What do you want to see as the next "glass ceiling broken"?
I would argue that the recent backslides we've seen are a sign of how far we've come. With every action there is a reaction, and the rise of incels, the alt-right manosphere, and anti-abortion legislation are reactions to feminine independence, achievement, and the Me Too movement.
Women excel in academics, though now headlines are beginning to stop praising young girls for their hard work and conscientiousness and choosing instead to claim teacher bias/rewarding of "feminine" behavior. We work hard in the workplace (one of the reasons I take issue with the study alleging bias in schooling). Women no longer depend on men for survival and are becoming more selective about their relationships for the first time, finally able to self-actualize and pursue non-romantic goals while viewing romance as a bonus rather than a priority. We can have our own bank accounts, own our own homes, live our own lives. We have achieved this through great effort, creating spaces to support one another and tackle the obstacles we've identified in our path. We've gotten better at speaking up about abuse or mistreatment, most notably with the Me Too movement. Women have grabbed hold of who we are and what we want out of life.
As a consequence, we've upset the balance of the world and left some young men adrift. As seen in discussions on life.men, there's an uneasiness around the idea of masculinity and uncertainty about how to be "manly" in a non-toxic way. Men haven't traditionally needed to work as hard as they do now to attract and retain a mate, women used to settle for substandard men as a necessity for their survival. Frustratingly, there doesn't seem to be as much of a push from men to organize and teach these young men how to be well-balanced people, perhaps because none of them are comfortable being the one to redefine masculinity in a modern context. Instead, extremist views are filling the vacuum and encouraging men to lean back into old school misogyny, mixing it in with genuine self-help advice to gently introduce the concepts to a new audience.
I agree that having a woman as President of the United States would be huge for shattering the glass ceiling, though unfortunately I fear that we may be further from that goal than we were in 2016. The progress we've made has startled the old patriarchial elements of society into action, bringing about the rise in misogyny online and elsewhere. I truly hope these are the death throes of anti-feminist sentiment and that they will disappear in time, but that remains to be seen.
I agree that it's difficult and frustrating to do so, and a lot of this stems from the fact that masculinity as we understand it is archaic. We already have great masculine role models, they're just espousing ideas that aren't traditionally associated with masculinity, so we just consider them role models. I think if someone is pursuing a certain physicality or way they present themselves, there are a lot of masculine role models. If a young man is trying to figure out how to conduct himself, he needs guidance from a good role model, not a male stereotype, new or old. Conflating a need to be like a certain male ideal with self-actualization is what's driving these kids to far-right misogynists, and misidentifying the source of unfulfillment. The right is offering a solution to an invented problem, and I don't think it's worth playing this game with them.
In summary, I think we have redefined masculinity in a modern context, it's just ignored because people are expecting an archetype of physicality that matches personality. The flexibility of modern masculinity doesn't appeal to boys who are still figuring themselves out and I agree that's a branding issue, not with coming up with our "positive stereotype" but teaching kids how shitty stereotypes are in general.
I think there are a lot of elements of traditional masculinity that are positive, empowering, and non-problematic, but for whatever reason they are being overlooked. I love using Aragorn (and honestly many of the characters in LOTR) as examples of positive masculinity: he is strong, protects those he cares about, he expresses his feelings, he respects those who are physically weaker or politically less powerful than himself, and he uses his position of power to become a protector rather than a tyrant. I've seen some mentions of a "lack of good male role models" in some men's discussions, and I'm honestly not sure how that's possible. There are plenty of good role models in general in media, literature, and real life and a good number of them are men. It's possible they're referencing role models in their personal lives, but it seems to be mentioned in broader contexts than that.
Oo Aragorn is a good example of positive masculinity. Like every male LOTR character actually. I suppose I just have trouble seeing how their positive traits somehow don't apply to women as well? If there was a woman as a mentor in your life that shared the positive aspects of Aragorn's character, would that be impossible for a young man to absorb and adopt? It might be more difficult to relate maybe? I have trouble seeing the desire for delineation into gender groups.
I think this is where some men are getting confused. They see positive traits embodied by traditional male role models being de-gendered and applied to women as well. Because of course there aren't specific "male" and "female" personality traits that only one gender has: men are just as capable of being nurturing as women are of being assertive, for example. Instead of continuing to embrace those traits as "manly", they seem to feel robbed of them, as if they have been lost to or "claimed" by gender neutrality in some way. I have always looked to both male and female role models to learn how to be a good person, but it does seem to resonate more when the person you're emulating more closely resembles yourself, whether that be due to gender, orientation, race, or other factors.
While we are talking about LOTR and role models, Eowyn's arc is so empowering, and so ahead of it's time. Tolkein was conservative in many ways but he liked and valued people of all genders and it shines through his writing.
I want to add that I think this has actually made romance more important than it ever has been in history. We can choose our partners based solely on how much we love them and enjoy their company.
My sister is a particularly clear case of this. She went into software development and makes a breadwinner income. This allowed her to marry her husband (who, she has told me, is literally the only person in her life she has ever felt attracted to), who for many years could not legally work due to his DACA status. If she'd been forced to marry for financial stability, there is no way they could have married each other. They are such a great match and totally crazy for each other, and it's depressing to imagine all the people throughout history who could never indulge in real love because marriage was a financial transaction.
I do like this perspective, and I get similar feelings you do about how all of this is reactionary. It's scary though because although we have met these challenges in the past, will we be able to moving forward?
I am reading Abraham's biography and the issues he was dealing at the time around slavery and how he didn't want to take a hardline because he thought it hurt the abolitionist movement more than helped it, that spoke to me in someways. However at the same rate look how Germany handled Nazi's vs how we've handled confederacy and I do wonder if tolerating intolerance is part of the sickness we are suffering from as a country.
It's hard for me to know if we did things differently as a society, more firmly if we'd be in a better position or if this is just the Zitgeist that would boil due to how history turns. Ya know?
"Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhout
The US lacks an Equal Rights Amendment to the Constitution. https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-joint-resolution/25#:~:text=Introduced%20in%20House%20(01%2F31,was%20in%20the%20original%20proposal.
The US has rescinded its reproductive health care guarantee for women only. https://www.kff.org/womens-health-policy/issue-brief/abortion-at-scotus-dobbs-v-jackson-womens-health/
Women are paid less than men in all job categories. http://blog.dol.gov/2023/03/14/5-fast-facts-the-gender-wage-gap#:~:text=Overall%2C%20women%20are%20not%20paid,for%20Black%20and%20Hispanic%20women.
By Wilhout's definition, women in the US remain the out-group. As more and more right-leaning politicians take power, women will lose more and more of whatever ground they now have. Without legislative, codified, encoded rights, all women are at risk of actions just like the Taliban took in Iran.
I remember seeing the images of Iran in the 70s looking so progressive and worry about that as a future here.
I think the question is what's the red line where we fight or flee? Especially when I am still seeing some positives, Roe vs Wade seemed to have awoken some people. The question is will it last, I worry it'll fade until we lose a sister to sepsis and then we'll protest like Poland.
I am glad the violence against women act wasn't held hostage as much as it had been in the past, which is also somewhat a sad state of affairs.
I do want to acknowledge for men reading who get caught up in the pay gap as I usually see that become a highly contested issue. Yes men tend to work more dangerous jobs like oil riggers and such. However some of that is related to the gatekeeping that goes on in these professions as someone who did a bit of time in emergency medical services the field quickly became unfriendly if I wasn't interested in flirting. The amount of complaints about small women who could clearly do the role was frustrating, and the fact they'd turn to her immediately in a small space situation such as an MVA showed her value.
The reality is traditional women careers such as teaching are undervalued by society, and women in untraditional female roles are undervalued for what they can contribute or are boxed out unless they show up and play nice every time.
The reason i'll stay is because this is happening everywhere, some places might have universal healthcare, which would be great, but canada and finland, norway and others are facing right wing polices that are at best sliding towards fascism. Where would go?
I consistently see fellow women having sexist views and are not being called out on. Or inserting their own opinions on what other women or doing.
Example 1: I was in one of those, "Are we dating the same Guy?" Groups and I had to leave. Women constantly saying that we should always let men pay, let's not get into our masculine energy, and that it is their job.
Example 2: An edit of a show online and a woman commented on how poorly the woman was aging. Is this nice? Is this appropriate? Why does it matter? What do you get out of making that opinion known?
Example 3: I've had two women in my life make the following comments about other women:
-They shamed a friend for calling their fiance their partner. Said they would be offended if they got promoted to fiance and were being called partner. Why the fuck does it matter? It's not your relationship.
-They expressed a friend was not practicing self-preservation by having a one night stand. Again, who the fuck cares? Let them do what they want.
It is just really frustrating as a woman hear so many women in my life and online preach feminism and see them not practice it themselves. Let's leave judgement of others behind us.
Hard agree. I chalk this up to internalized misogyny and have even experienced shades of it myself. I think many of us have been introduced to another woman and consciously or unconsciously compared ourselves to her, judged her on appearance/perceived intelligence/other factors, and "sized up the competition" to some degree. It seems like a holdover from when we needed to compete with each other for male attention for survival, a sense of "I need to be the smartest, funniest, prettiest woman in this room to get attention and attract the best partner possible to live a good life." Instead of being helpful, it's crab pot mentality and we're all pulling each other down into the boiling water instead of boosting each other up.
We've been conditioned to follow so many rules for "safety" and "etiquette": don't be promiscuous, don't wear revealing clothes, don't be loud, don't nag, etc. We judge each other based on how well we perceive the others are following these rules and more conservative (not even necessarily politically conservative, but attuned to traditional values) women are apt to judge more harshly and more often. There also seems to be a rise in "pick me" type girls alongside the rise of alt-right misogyny, seeking to secure some sort of preferential status in the rigid hierarchy of right-wing society by pointing out flaws and distancing themselves from progressive women.
This is where I think art work does amazing job of breaking down these ideas pushed on us. I can't tell you how I still get a bit teary thinking about What Were We Wearing exhibit showing little girls clothes...we need to push everyone on fundamental attribution error/just world thinking which is heavily pushed.
I've been toying with the idea of a play but just don't know music well enough to get the whole thing thought out but I feel like it's something we need to shift the narrative.
When i saw that, it's just hard to think, needed some fresh air.
I think there has been great effort in the areas that address girls and young women in the academic/clubs/groups, but once out of those spaces the concepts faulter.
~15 years ago I had a high school math teacher attempt to discourage me from taking pre-calc due to "girls having difficulty" with that type of math despite leading our school's rocketry team to nationals. There were no clubs devoted to girls and for the first year I was the ONLY girl on the team. The next year there was a ballooning of girls joining because of that glass ceiling being broken.
Fast forward to about 6 years ago as an unconventional student entering Engineering as a woman, I was flooded by women's groups for support and several woman in my technical classes. While the support was there from a face value, it shriveled in more male dominated groups or when interviewing for internships. I had interests in engineering clubs and wanted to be part of the more hands on stuff delegated for the guys. Rocketry spoiled me with the hands on ability to assemble my own fins and launch engine; I wanted to turn the wrench or help design the CAD models for the club's big project! Getting locked in a room after doing hours of CAD work and mocked by the guys on the team killed that desire. They won and that glass ceiling was not broken.
Again during internship interviews for Engineering roles, I got asked questions about "What will I do about my significant other?" because they discovered I was engaged. Bonus points for the question regarding how "I will convince these men" to listen to me as a woman. Every other person who interviewed with that company got an offer except myself; it's hard not to think those questions impacted that decision. Between the clubs and interviews, I left engineering because it was not worth the effort or work for what I was facing. The men won again, I changed degrees, but still had associations with STEM. Another ceiling still unbroken.
I now work in IT and have been working actively in developmental type roles for the past couple of years. Despite intentionally changing my degree to get away from more male dominated fields, I've sorta work my way into another one just by chance and due to my own merits. I've had to explain technically complicated topics to male devs, only to have them ask for a male dev to explain it to them instead. I've been talked over, ignored, and mansplained more than I can count.
It is corporate America and the professional world that needs the attention to change instead of sending droves of inspired women to be trampled by dated mindsets of upper leadership. I've become jaded to diversity efforts because 9 times out of 10 it just exists to make a good social media post; there's no actual teeth to them. It's not that women aren't interested in male dominated fields, but instead they feel pushed out due to their inability for them to adapt to the times in the professional realm. HR isn't your friend and calling out frustrations lands you in positions on powerless committees that are just there to save face.
Edit: changed wording for clarity.
Being talked over is such a huge trigger for me.
I agree the workplace talks the talk but when you look at actions it's been frustrating. I work in Healthcare which is a relatively women dominant field. Yet when I look at leadership it's male oriented and it's a crazy discrepancy to me at times. Although after feeling like a loss of promotion opportunity due to timing of jobs being posted and my pregnancy I get it and get frustrated by it. Fortunately I was lucky to find a strong female mentor who stole me for a different opportunity.
I'm so happy you've been able to find refuge in a female mentor! Women supporting women is the only way we'll overcome these issues.
As I've progressed in my career, I've been increasingly bothered that it's men in leadership that are the worst culprits of interrupting or talking over women. I've noticed a trend of snappy, get-to-the-point rhetoric that is antagonistic and fails to acknowledge the nuances of a situation. It's the equivalent of a steak dinner word platter served up to them, with the steak already being cut and their baked potato buttered. They can't be bothered to put in the effort and expect those below them to put in that expense. It's just another symptom of an outdated mindset that persists in C-Level board rooms. This behavior got marked as leadership material decades ago and those individuals got promoted up. When reality it is lazy faux bravado to make up for failures of actual knowledge and understanding.
This is something I can never seem to explain properly. I'm a huge fan of women's groups (formal or informal) when we're organizing it ourselves, but I won't attend anything employee-sponsored. I've been used for PR purposes and managerial back-patting too many times.
My experience is mostly in industry and construction, but it's disappointingly similar to yours. I will say that things have gotten better, and on average, younger guys are more accepting. But damn do we still have a long way to go.
I'm so sorry to hear that was your experience. I started noticing something similar occurring with the group I was in and immediately backed out once I realized I was being used. It was a company backed initiative, but we were expected to put in our normal 40+ hours of work and consider this non-charagable "volunteer" hours. I started evaluating if it was considered volunteering, why not do that for my own local community versus putting in free work to make my company look better.
One thing that got me about the toothlessness of the initiative was the persistent phrasing of "evangelicalizing" our goals. So I guess spreading the word of our committee's ideas, but never actually acting on anything. Just meaningless word salad to put on an act.
In terms of interpersonal relationships, on the plus side, many more men cook and contribute to household chores in relationships than ever before. We have popular relationship advice books like Fair Play by Rodsky which would have been unthinkable fifty years ago. On the negative side, we have the appeal of the online mysogynists like Tate to young men via social media. Max Fisher's book the Chaos Machine was a book I found informative about the particular details of how social media companies have implemented policies that favored spreading hate and division online over the last ten or so years.
I do think that the Trump presidency (its aftermath including Trump's post November 2020 crimes) and the Dobbs decision resulting in conservative states quickly enacting broad abortion bans, have caused some people to rethink their former positions. It's easy to be casually favorably inclined toward a candidate or policy until you live with their worst aspects. The Trump cultists and the hard core evangelicals are not a majority. I hope to see pushback and for GenZ to be motivated to vote against conservatives.
I am encouraged by the women's subreddits consistently suggesting Why Does He Do That (the book) when asked for advice by women in abusive relationships. I worked for a short time at a battered women's organization and these organizations were not at all mainstream. Now the characteristics of abusive relationships are much more widely known. We stand on the shoulders of pioneers.
Don't give up hope. History is messy but some things are better than they were and more can be better if we keep working.