46 votes

People are lying to you and will continue to lie about the merits of the Donald Trump US indictment - be aware

10 comments

  1. spit-evil-olive-tips
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    I think it's really important to notice the goalpost-shifting that occurs here when Trump was being impeached for his actions on January 6th, his defenders claimed that he shouldn't be impeached,...

    The editors of the National Review have published an editorial arguing that impeachment was the proper vehicle to address Trump’s attempt to steal the election and that it’s improper and an abuse of the Department of Justice to use the criminal justice system to try to redress it.

    I think it's really important to notice the goalpost-shifting that occurs here

    when Trump was being impeached for his actions on January 6th, his defenders claimed that he shouldn't be impeached, that the proper venue was criminal prosecution.

    from the National Review, in 2021:

    If Trump’s actions leading up to and on January 6 were not merely unpresidential or reckless but criminal — and if more than 33 Republicans believe that impeachment and conviction is an inappropriate consequence because he’s no longer in office — then perhaps the better option for accountability is for the feds or the District of Columbia to pursue criminal charges against him for inciting a riot.

    from an op-ed in the San Diego Union-Tribune, also 2021:

    Many of them recognize that an impeachment trial in the Senate is disruptive and divisive. They say it must be done, however, because the crime was so obvious and serious. And, they argue, Trump is so dangerous he must be prevented from ever holding federal office.

    Really? Is that what this is about?

    If that is all this is about, the solution is simple. Under federal law, inciting an insurrection is a serious crime. Conviction carries penalties of up to 10 years in prison and a bar from holding any federal office. 18 U.S. Code section 2383 states: “Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.”

    but now that he's facing criminal prosecution, the argument shifts to "this should have been handled by impeachment". these are not serious people, arguing in good faith.

    they are also either outright saying bullshit, or incredibly naive, with stuff like this:

    A criminal prosecution treats Trump like any other American. As such, most people would view a criminal proceeding as less political and vindictive. The focus would be on evidence, not votes or political careers.

    48 votes
  2. [5]
    Earthboom
    Link
    Well, really, this is like yelling in a storm. The average reader doesn't have a clue and we're in this mess because the reader can't discern fact from fiction due to a lack of education and time...

    Well, really, this is like yelling in a storm. The average reader doesn't have a clue and we're in this mess because the reader can't discern fact from fiction due to a lack of education and time and interest, all things that favor one party in particular.

    This article points out what he's actually being charged with versus what has been said he's been charged with. The courts will do what they'll do and the verdict and trial will be understood based on the charges filed. But to the average person the end result will be the same. If he walks free, the justice system will be seen as broken, class warfare will ramp up, government will be seen as corrupt. If he goes to jail, great.

    Knowing the finer details of the law doesn't really add or detract from how the readers mind has polarized the thing anyway. All the media has done is tell the reader over and over he's being charged with things and indited with things. What those things are is where most of the population would get a D- at best as they try and guess.

    I guess it matters in showing what has had to be done to charge this slippery guy, how politicians evade charges, how the justice department lacks teeth and so forth but maybe someone else can weigh in here.

    Does this article sound like it's splitting hairs?

    19 votes
    1. boxer_dogs_dance
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      I'm a lawyer and I enjoyed it. Because of my background I can't speak to how interesting it is to others without my background, but there are nerds like me who like to read into specialties that...

      I'm a lawyer and I enjoyed it. Because of my background I can't speak to how interesting it is to others without my background, but there are nerds like me who like to read into specialties that aren't their own.

      Edit, also telling a lawyer that they are splitting hairs is a little bit like telling an electrician they risk getting shocked. Hair splitting done correctly or incorrectly has significant legal consequences with real world implications.

      I'm busy today and I am going to be offline until Tuesday but if you want to discuss further, we could do that later.

      21 votes
    2. skybrian
      Link Parent
      It sounds like Ken White is known to the National Review and what he writes may have some effect on them, so that’s enough reason for him to write it. For us, I think you’re basically right about...

      It sounds like Ken White is known to the National Review and what he writes may have some effect on them, so that’s enough reason for him to write it.

      For us, I think you’re basically right about the bigger picture. There’s no reason we need to pay attention to this case at all, since we’re unlikely to have any effect on it or on public opinion.

      But we can read about things just because we find them interesting. Being curious about how the law works is enough motivation to want to know how it works in this case, since it’s a pretty interesting case. It can also be a jumping-off point for learning more about law in general.

      7 votes
    3. [2]
      deeplyembedded
      Link Parent
      You write really well, and I think most people are glossing past this comment due to that. It seems like you are arguing that no one understands the US legal system, the charges don't really...

      You write really well, and I think most people are glossing past this comment due to that. It seems like you are arguing that no one understands the US legal system, the charges don't really matter, and it's all about the news and how it portrays things.

      I don't agree with any of these things.

      4 votes
      1. Earthboom
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        Thanks for the feedback. I'm saying outside of scholastic interest, and a pensive "hm...", what would the average reader get from knowing the subtle difference of what Trump is being charged with?...

        Thanks for the feedback.

        I'm saying outside of scholastic interest, and a pensive "hm...", what would the average reader get from knowing the subtle difference of what Trump is being charged with? Another user made a valid comment and expanded on the author of the article in that we need to point out flaws such as this as part of our defense against weaponized lies and propaganda.

        That is a good purpose to the article.

        I'm critiquing the article's strong verbature and call to action. Being told we're all being lied to usually leads to some kind of effect. The effect here is almost a philosophical one. The call to action is to understand propaganda happens accidentally, willingly, and subconsciously and it's all dangerous. The anti-virus is us calling out lies 24/7.

        The average reader picking this article up wouldn't necessarily get that. I, for example, expected actionable information on what to do upon discovering the lies and got clarification here on the importance of it.

        But yes, the average man does not understand how to interpret or navigate the justice system. Or the tax system. Or how voting works. That's all a problem. We're raised by television, now cellphones. We open ourselves up to exploitation and don't even know it because information is still power and we don't have it anymore.

        3 votes
  3. [4]
    NaraVara
    Link
    I rather like Mr. White's opening line here: That really sums up where we're at doesn't it? It cuts right through the hand-wringing about when and under what conditions we can reasonably assume...

    I rather like Mr. White's opening line here:

    In peace there's nothing so becomes an opinion writer as charity and humility. But this isn’t peacetime. It’s a time of political, cultural, and legal war. Candor is all.

    That really sums up where we're at doesn't it? It cuts right through the hand-wringing about when and under what conditions we can reasonably assume good faith.

    14 votes
    1. [2]
      AevumDecessus
      Link Parent
      Thinking of it like wartime brings to mind how much propaganda is used in a wartime footing (more so than not), and how much that propaganda is designed to evoke a response, not to be actually...

      Thinking of it like wartime brings to mind how much propaganda is used in a wartime footing (more so than not), and how much that propaganda is designed to evoke a response, not to be actually accurate.

      Looking at this whole situation in that light definitely makes me rethink how I read things, especially after reading through this article

      6 votes
      1. Earthboom
        Link Parent
        This is a very good point. In times like these it's absolutely necessary to call out all fouls because the time to stand up and against is now. The gloves have to come off. In this light, the...

        This is a very good point. In times like these it's absolutely necessary to call out all fouls because the time to stand up and against is now. The gloves have to come off. In this light, the author illuminates even subtle propaganda, accidental propaganda. It is interesting to see how lies and incorrect information is weaponized so easily.

        1 vote
    2. NoobFace
      Link Parent
      Shakespeare is kinda like that.

      Shakespeare is kinda like that.

      3 votes
  4. Removed by admin: 7 comments by 4 users
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