The growing toxicity of fanbases
So, it might just be that I'm older and notice these things more, but it really seems to me that fan groups are becoming more and more toxic overall. It feels like over the past 5-8 years specifically fanbases are reaching toxic levels faster and faster.
I remember when bronies became a thing, it took them like 3-4 years before the dangerous, threatening, and assholeish behavior really began to become common. Then Steven Universe came out and it only took them like 2 years to start sending death threats to people who didn't support their head-cannons. Rick and Morty went toxic in under a year and a half.
Then there's the shit in long-running franchises. Star Wars has had multiple of the actors shutting off social media from the toxic bile being shot at them. Chris Pratt is getting hate for what Star Lord did in Infinity War.
There's memes too, weirdly enough. Calarts is the biggest example I can think of. People made a dumb joke about how all the cartoons look a like today and someone pointed out how a few of the artists went to this one school in California and it became a catch all term for the shitty artstyle, and then within like 4 weeks the school has to go into lockdown because someone made a tongue-in-cheek threat of shooting the school up. A few years ago trolling attempts would be things like ordering a bunch of pizzas to the school or something annoying and dickish but overall harmless like that.
I know toxicity amongst fanbases has always been a thing, but it really seems to me that they're reaching unseen levels and doing so faster and faster. I mean Rick and Morty fans rioted over fucking dipping sauce, there are the aforementioned Steven Universe death threats, the directed attacks of actors on social media, fucking joking about shooting schools up because you don't like the art-style a few of their graduates used in a time where we've seen like 6 school shootings in half a year, there was that whole Voltron incident where a fan stole storyboards or something and threatened to release them to the public unless the creators of the show made their favorite gay ship a thing.
I guess what I'm getting at is what the fuck is happening that's poisoning every single community online? It's like everything has suddenly devolved into Youtube comments. How did we get to this level of toxicity? Or am I just more aware of this shit now and it's not really all that different from how it used to be?
It's easier than ever to get attention online, and what better way to get attention than making jokes about a shared interest? These people who take it too far aren't new, they're just more able than ever to use shared interests and internet platforms to seek validation. I'm no psychiatrist, but when you get the most attention from being a funny fan of Rick and Morty I can see how you can fold that into your identity until it's unhealthy.
Then you get a bunch of obsessive attention seekers who try to one-up each other in order to maintain that identity and validation until you get these horrible extremes. Honestly, a lot of them may not even see how far beyond normal it becomes. Boiling frogs, etc.
I couldn't agree more. The big question is: can we mitigate this problem?
I honestly think that in some ways, the anonymous appearance on the internet helps exacerbate these problems. People stop thinking about the people behind the usernames they're communicating with over the internet. They aren't talking to a human being, they're talking to some faceless identity over the internet. An obvious solution would be to remove anonymity, but I worry that will have a negative impact on the internet, and what it stands for.
Growing? The scale is larger, but the nastiness is the same as always. Except now, its easier to bring it into the real world, and there are more people who allow themselves to jump on the band wagon, but I remember bullying and nastiness as far back as the early days of my time on IRC. The real change now is that there are more people on the internet, and they don't care about rules or etiquette. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September
yeah, i definitely both scale and ease of access are playing a big part in all this. I wonder is there's a way to really counter act this.
This website seems to be making a good effort, and its goals of design leading to good participation are laudable.
I'd love to see this approach used more broadly, but I feel a lot of people would get up in arms about the perceived exclusivity etc so I highly doubt bigger sites will ever go for it.
They be big numbers of active users to sell to advirtising companies so they'll condone thr bullshit till it kills them.
Good point about the scale. I feel like large toxic fanbases have always been in existence but the various social media platforms available now make it easier to find each other, if that makes sense.
This, 100% I think it contributes to real-world tragedies too. Some kid might not find a local white supremacy group to hang out with but you better believe he has friends in an online echo chamber that convince him that it’s a great worldview. It’s a weird combination of being socially isolated but accepted by an online community.
I feel like I've been living under a rock with respect to the instances you pointed out. I feel like the divisive political atmosphere that we have been experiencing in America the past few years are a contributor here. It is starting to spill into other aspects of our lives. It is also worth mentioning that I don't feel that most people truly think this way, but rather that few who usually kept their mouth shut are becoming more brave with all they are saying.
Did you see the video of the guy in the McDonalds who threw a tantrum when he couldn't get Szechuan sauce? I'd suggest avoiding it if you can, but it's gross. He jumps on the counter, then rolls on the floor going "REEEEEEEEEEE". It's like the cringiest 4chan meme come to life on video.
I agree that the level of arguing has been enhanced by the level of divisiveness around life in general these days, but a craving for internet fame and maybe a higher reliance on the internet for socializing in general really ratchets the problem to 11. Or maybe I'm just getting old and kids have always done dumb things like that.
I spend a lot of time online so I guess I've got a finger on the pulse of things I enjoy. But yeah, I'm feeling this toxicity spreading into so much lately. I guess I really just started to notice since it's effecting my sphere of interest.
I couldn't say for sure if it's happening faster now (though it feels like it is), but this behavior is definitely not new. Star Wars "fans" have been harrassing that kid who played Anakin in the Phantom Menace for 20 years.
It's also not limited to movies and TV show fanbases. Sports fans can also turn into a brutal mob. Look up Steve Bartman, a Cubs fan whose life was ruined because he caught a foul ball in a playoff game that a Cubs player could have caught. The Cubs ended up losing the game and Bartman practically had to go into hiding for years to avoid the harrassment and death threats.
Jeez, what's wrong with people. To quote a great modern philosopher, " why you haft to be mad? Iz only game."
It is worth mentioning that the Cubs organization has tried numerous times after this incident to make things better. It wasn't until after they won the world series that he finally came out of hiding. If I recall correctly, I think the Cubs gave him a World Series ring as part of an apology for it all.
Ah, great point about sports games! Football fans in Europe and cricket fans in South Asia are notorious for rioting and causing mayham and hooliganism.
Maybe the real problem is the "sportification" (or "teamification" (subset of gamification?)) of fanbases? Maybe online social media makes it easy to cluster into discrete, strongly defined and self contained bubbles of opinions. With a strong group identify, comes a sense of security. If a team culture toxifies, the sense of security allows the expression of hithero socially unacceptable behavior.
It honestly feels like the "SJW" movement/group/what-have-you was created (under a different name likely) to advocate for people who can't advocate for themselves, but ultimately fell victim to a shit ton of teenagers/young adults with behavioral/mental issues taking that label and justifying their shitty behavior with the sheer numbers of terrible people. Now that movement has been reduced to teenagers threatening their favorite artists to include one dimensional characters (A lesbian character, a bi character, an asexual character, etc.) I'm perfectly okay with somebody making a show/art with those kinds of characters, but when somebody bullies an artist into making a character who is defined by only one trait, that is where I draw the line. This could get a little heated, but I'm of the opinion that we used to have a really good group of people advocating for these rights, and now we have a sort of fascist group of people that tell you to assimilate or you will be (metaphorically) strung up and publicly executed. This idea seems to have found its way into almost every artform on the internet. The right side of the spectrum isn't exempt either. Obsessive Rick and Morty fans are often just huge cunts.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that with the advent of the internet, there is now a much easier way for a bunch of damaged people who need help to have their shit behavior rewarded by others like them. It's one big echo chamber
I actually dropped out of MLP right around derpygate or whatever it's called, but it's good to hear that the community itself seems to have gotten better. I might give the DnD episode a look. I'm always a fan of DnD episodes in anything.
I have enjoyed the first two seasons of MLP in the past, and i thought derpy was a cute fan-creation. I didn't know about derpygate (just looked it up) - it does seem like the SJWs completely misunderstood (or were just out to ruin fun), and hasbro (like many other companies these days) were terrified of the possibility of being smeared by these people as making fun of people with developmental issues.
It reminds me a little bit of the overwatch tracer butt thing. "oh no, tracer, a character who wears a skintight suit, has a butt! She's a role model for my daughter and i don't want her to think she has to have a butt too!" then blizzard says "don't worry, we'll fix it", actual fans "WTF, you're being pushovers to crybullies!", blizzard "uh... ok,we'll 'fix' it, with tracer still having a butt", fans: "yay, blizzard isn't as stupid as other companies", complaining parent: ... (not sure if they even cared to begin with, never heard about any sort of response), SJW publications: "gamergate's sexist misogynistic teenage perverts have bullied blizzard into producing their deviant pornographic fantasies, stomping on the faces of young girls and their concerned parents"
paraphrasing heavily, of course.
edit: it isn't even much of a butt anyway.
I wonder if the toxicity spilling out into social media over trivial fandom stuff is the result of some really deep sociological and mental ills in our (Western) society. It's not so much the object of hatred - whether it's Star Wars or sports - but that people increasingly feel fearful, disrespected, insecure and frustrated with their lives, relationships and jobs (or perhaps lack of the above). Atomized and isolated, we go online and vent our frustrations anonymously.
To some extent this might be a useful safety valve - better someone vent online about some game or whatever than shoot up a school or mall. But then other human beings become the target of the latest Five Minute Hate, whether it's a celebrity or some poor shmoe who said the wrong thing on a random Twitter thread.
I guess it might be a size thing, now that I think about it. With the growing inter-connectivity of the world things that get popular can grow exponentially. So I guess this correlates to the toxic groups, which grow in size proportionally to the main fan community body, yet seem to have louder voices and effects.
I bet you someone smarter than I could actually make a formula that determines the size a community has to reach at which is begins to suffer from the toxic aspects. Something like for every one toxic fan you see a twofold increase in overall toxicity, whereas for every one non-toxic fan you see maybe a half increase of nontoxicity, due to most people being lurkers in communities and the fact that positivity doesn't stand out amongst the crowd as much as negativity. And I imagine the louder negativity increases the chances of toxic members being attracted to the overall fanbase, creating a spiral.
I've mentioned this in another post, but once again I find it applicable. You should check out Tuckman's stages of group development. Here is the wiki page if you are interested.
As someone from the kpop fandom, I have noticed people tend to make the same remark here. But unfortunately or fortunately, the toxicity is the same. It is due to the increased accessibility to the Internet, the ability to connect to more people from the fandom and also huge fandom presence online that these things come more to our notice now. The toxicity is more visible now and maybe it has increased a little since the Internet has given a platform for users to influence and be influenced by others. And those who voice their opinions the loudest and those who generally have the most controversial opinions get the most attention. That's how the Internet works. That is how most websites work, especially twitter.
I don't know how to address the toxicity. But it is interesting to look at this from a more neutral perspective.
The ramping up of toxicity is happening because the well know human patterns are in place. People have watched this toxicity spiral happen in other communities and they are easily able to apply those same patterns to this new community. It works because everyone else follows the same patterns as well. So we are seeing tighter toxicity spirals in communities.
I don't know/ cannot understand the logic behind the toxicity. But the patterns are evident in the each instance.
What you are witnessing is the flandarization of fanbases.
Why is this happening? Because as fan bases get older and their participants age, more people move on- leaving behind only the radicals. These radicals make the fanbase unappealing to most newer, younger members, so the only people who join are older, more radical people.
It's a viscious cycle that only ends when the fandom dies or is rendered irrelevant by the next generation (aka a "fad").
You can see this in anime- the millennial fanbase is huge- and cancerous. As a result, fewer Gen Z'ers actually like anime, which means major anime studios have no choice but to pander to an increasingly older, and more radical, demographic, largely relying on edginess and nostalgia to attract fans.
Anime is, simply put, a millennial fad. And I say this as a self-described millennial otaku.
And thus, the anime fanbase flandarizes. Just like with MLP.
I can't agree with your assessment on anime. The data doesn't support it either. If what you are saying is true then we would be seeing a contraction of the industry, the reality is that the it is growing worldwide, is the biggest it has ever been and only continues to grow overseas (outside Japan).
This growth isn't occurring amongst millenials. It's occurring amongst younger audiences watching new shounen like dragonball super and my hero academia.
There is no evidence that it's a fad, it is the biggest it has ever been and is only growing at an increasing rate every year.
I have to disagree with certain points you have made, and agree with others.
If I must lay claim to a generation label I am in Gen X. My introduction to anime was a long time ago, I believe it was actually Area 88 or Robotech, but I do remember it being on a very horrible VHS copy of a copy. I just showed My Neighbor Totoro to my kids last month, so I have not abandoned it entirely.
In my opinion anime itself is not a fad. It has followed the current trends, absolutely, and often to its detriment. I believe it will eventually sort itself out and return to a good storytelling medium. Using my example of Area 88 it was about the difficulties of returning to normal life veterans of the Vietnam war faced. There are concepts and visuals that can be attained with anime which are just possible in any other format. I don't see there ever being a movie or television series based on a story such as Jorgumand.
I will read reviews to see if anything new has come out, or if there are any new episodes releasing for an older show (I'm looking at you Black Lagoon!), but I do agree a lot of the newly released content has been quite cringe-worthy. Some the art style changed dramatically, like Initial D, and while I started out enjoying it I ended up not caring for it. Regardless of my thoughts on the matter the fanbase can be hostile, that is for certain!
I think there has always been a degree of toxicity to fanbases. Right or wrong I can remember plenty of gatekeeping in certain communities in the past. The internet has made much of that gatekeeping irrelevant. A good reputation and being trustworthy is no longer required to access the obscure content or exclusive content.
An artist sharing a new music track - in confidence with a fanbase - came with the understanding that it was not to be shared outside the community. In the past this could happen, and the hardcore fans would get to experience something special, but today this could never happen because it would end up on Spotify or YouTube in minutes.
Something no one’s mentioned so far is cultural latency, which in turn is affected by advancements in communications technology.
Hundreds of years ago the quickest way to spread information was through rare and expensive books that few people could read anyway, or through sheet music which might then be picked up by live musicians in the area, or through other equally cumbersome means. Cultural latency was high because it took ages for that information to spread, affect and be integrated by the cultures exposed to it.
Decades ago the quickest way to spread information was via the telgram, mass printed newspapers or magazines, vinyl, tapes, analog television, or analog radio. Cultural latency was shorter than before because it took much less time for mass media and information to affect he trajectory of culture.
Nowadays, the quickest way to spread information is the internet and digital technology in general. Social media, online media organizations, smartphones with cameras, streaming media, chatting and forums... these all have made it so that cultural latency has to be measured in nanoseconds instead of years now.
So along with everything else, cultural latency is the underlying guiding force that facilitates and propoagated the changes in the first place.