Awoo's recent activity

  1. Comment on Do you think "incivility" can be used as a tool for positive change? in ~talk

    Awoo
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    Incivility is used for change on a daily basis. There is a reason that various ideologies are stronger in certain communities than they are elsewhere. People aim to fit in. This means adopting the...

    Incivility is used for change on a daily basis. There is a reason that various ideologies are stronger in certain communities than they are elsewhere.

    People aim to fit in. This means adopting the behaviours, beliefs and thoughts of those around you. This leads to an easier life, because if you don't do so then those people make your life harder in a variety of ways.

    This works for both positive and negative change. It's not something that inherently favours good or bad, it just is what it is.

    People in receipt of incivility will either change their behaviour for an easier time or be driven into leaving the roles that attract the incivility. One way or another it achieves what the people being uncivil want in the current circumstances.

    Speaking from a European perspective, it kinda looks a lot like incivility is being used against people who are using incivility against other people. I see this as a particularly effective approach - if lgbt/ethnic groups are being treated with incivility then treating the people who treat them with incivility is an effective way of teaching these people empathy. If they have received the behaviour that they are dishing out then there is a good chance that they may start to learn what their actions are and how they effect other people.

    Is it nice? No.

    Does it work? Absolutely yes.

    1 vote
  2. Comment on Daily Tildes discussion - starting some moderation in ~tildes.official

    Awoo
    Link Parent
    You should stop writing at the point you double down with a second personal attack in future because the other person is going to stop reading at that point. Please rethink how you're going to...

    Zealot is an appropriate word for someone who continues to not provide evidence for their extraordinary claims. It's not an insult--it's my honest appraisal of your behavior and attitude.

    You should stop writing at the point you double down with a second personal attack in future because the other person is going to stop reading at that point.

    Please rethink how you're going to participate on Tildes in future. This isn't the participation anyone wants to see here. Be better.

    Regardless of this exchange clearly ending on a useless note I sincerely hope you have a nice day.

  3. Comment on Daily Tildes discussion - starting some moderation in ~tildes.official

    Awoo
    Link Parent
    Anyone with active mod experience of the larger subs on reddit will give you the same story since discord became the organisational norm. We've all seen and experienced it first hand. Just go a...

    Anyone with active mod experience of the larger subs on reddit will give you the same story since discord became the organisational norm. We've all seen and experienced it first hand.

    Just go a brigading discord group and lurk them a while. They talk tactics fairly frequently as they believe they're in a safe space.

    You can hand wave it away because you don't like the sound of it. But it is what it is.

    As for name calling and personal attacks - I don't think that's very appropriate here and I urge you to reconsider your phrasing in future as behaving and talking to people like that is not good participation.

  4. Comment on The ACLU Retreats From Free Expression in ~news

    Awoo
    Link
    This is a particularly European viewpoint, so it runs contrary to a lot of American views and I get downvoted a lot on reddit for saying it, but here's my opinion. Your right to anything should...

    This is a particularly European viewpoint, so it runs contrary to a lot of American views and I get downvoted a lot on reddit for saying it, but here's my opinion.

    Your right to anything should end at the precise point where your actions are causing harm to others.

    This applies to physical, verbal, and metaphysical things.

    You have the right to do whatever you want with your body physically but if it's causing harm to others then you should rightfully be prevented from doing something. This might be punching someone. This might be speeding in a vehicle. This might be smoking in an enclosed public space.

    You have the right to speak in any form you want, but your speech should be prevented when it is known to be harmful to others. There is a veritable fountain of studies on the topic and hatespeech, even when undirected at any individual or NOT seeking to incite actions, is harmful, objectively, causation not correlation, it lowers qualities of life, lowers social living standards, raises suicide rates, raises violence against minority groups, etc. It objectively causes actual harm and death to others.

    I agree wholly with the right to free speech. I however believe that everyone's right to not be harmed has greater priority over all other rights.

    Before the typical "who decides what harm is?" point comes in - the courts do. The same courts that decide what is an is not physical harm. The same courts that decide what is and is not murder. The same courts trusted to judge on "harm" in all other areas of law.

    Speaking in generalisations of course. There are caveats and nuances. But the general principle remains true and I think is roughly how we try to approach it over here. We don't always get it right of course, nobody does, but no system is ever going to be perfect. We should aim for the system of least harm.

    6 votes
  5. Comment on Daily Tildes discussion - starting some moderation in ~tildes.official

    Awoo
    Link Parent
    They're already here. They already use the same tactics here that are in use in communities on reddit that have high-moderation goals and standards of behaviour. The issue in general is that...

    They're already here. They already use the same tactics here that are in use in communities on reddit that have high-moderation goals and standards of behaviour.

    The issue in general is that moderating behaviour is considered "liberal". As is visible in your own comment "far more liberal site in general than Reddit".

    A place that people consider "liberal" naturally attracts those that are anti-liberal to come and cause trouble.

    What kind of trouble though? Well that depends on what kind of methods can work and what kind of methods can not work. But the main example is demonstrating to us that "liberal" methods (moderating) can't work, by trying to use moderation against the site itself.

    They are already here, doing just that.

    How?

    They join discussions and use savvy, well rehearsed, well understood ways of participating in discussion while appearing like an "innocent" user just asking questions. They deliberately lead conversation into highly-inflammatory areas and bait people that would be easily emotionally triggered by those areas into rising to the user emotionally. They then use this to report said user and have moderators forced into taking action against them.

    See an lgbt topic? Ask "innocent" questions about autogynephilia and watch it cause someone that's gay or trans to explode after just a few responses. The baiter succeeds in injecting hateful fringe theories rejected by 100% of the medical community into the discussion and gets a perfectly good person banned due to their emotional reaction to hate.

    This has already occurred here and is ongoing. They are savvy. They have already learned these tactics from participating in /r/worldnews. It took a long time for moderators there to become aware of this tactic and how to handle it, the way it is handled is still poor even now.

    I won't be naming names or pointing at example threads though as it's not necessary. Deimos has privately been made aware of individuals and has clearly adjusted tactics slightly after realising what is going on.

    This will only grow and become harder and harder to handle as the site scales.

  6. Comment on Daily Tildes discussion - starting some moderation in ~tildes.official

    Awoo
    Link Parent
    The only people that will visit it are people who have had moderator actions against them. So the only participants will be endless amounts of people that all have grumpy feelings towards the mods...

    The log can be kept separate from the main board so as not to interfere with the flow of discussion

    The only people that will visit it are people who have had moderator actions against them. So the only participants will be endless amounts of people that all have grumpy feelings towards the mods because they've had their things moderated.

    This turns such places into a hellhole of people that all honestly rightfully deserved the moderation they received but all back one another up in their indignation at having been moderated.

    Which of course, all of these users pejoratively call "censorship" instead of "moderation".

    It doesn't really solve an issue that can't be addressed by going to an Admin(here on tildes). But it introduces many more issues.

  7. Comment on Daily Tildes discussion - starting some moderation in ~tildes.official

    Awoo
    Link Parent
    We have groups with 4000 subs. The site is growing and will grow rapidly. We're only a few months away from it and failure to plan ahead for a behaviour we KNOW is going to occur is would be...

    We have groups with 4000 subs. The site is growing and will grow rapidly. We're only a few months away from it and failure to plan ahead for a behaviour we KNOW is going to occur is would be pretty naive.

    Learn based on the history of others. Don't repeat mistakes in the naive but hopeful belief that it somehow might not happen again. It will happen again.

    Prove to me that other solutions don't work and then I'll be happy to support yours.

    Prove that they DO before making errors. It has already been tried all over reddit. It caused more issues than it solved anywhere that it was tried.

    What issue is it trying to solve? It doesn't really solve any issue. It doesn't improve much at all yet it brings forth countless problems.

  8. Comment on Daily Tildes discussion - starting some moderation in ~tildes.official

    Awoo
    Link Parent
    Then you run into the issue of savvy bigots abusing the system with comments that appear to be reasonable-participation by the casual user who doesn't know any better but are in fact veiled...

    Then you run into the issue of savvy bigots abusing the system with comments that appear to be reasonable-participation by the casual user who doesn't know any better but are in fact veiled bigotry or bait.

    And when they're visible to other users, they then take it and use it as evidence to casual users of the bad modding taking place. It gets used as a recruiting means.

  9. Comment on Daily Tildes discussion - starting some moderation in ~tildes.official

    Awoo
    Link Parent
    Wikipedia's page change history does not keep moderator actions. This should be fairly obvious because otherwise you'd have the personal addresses of thousands of people littered throughout the...

    Wikipedia's page change history does not keep moderator actions.

    This should be fairly obvious because otherwise you'd have the personal addresses of thousands of people littered throughout the page histories of various pages for notable individuals, celebrities, etc. But it also doesn't keep vandalism actions, hatespeech, and other things.

    There's a difference between something being removed (but kept in history) because it fails to meet Wiki's content guidelines on how an encyclopedic article should be written vs something being removed because it breaks Wiki's rules.

  10. Comment on Daily Tildes discussion - the importance of content in ~tildes.official

    Awoo
    Link Parent
    I think there's space for bot posting, but it has to be exceptional. We have all seen the reddit co-founders talk about the days when digg was the big site and reddit was the small site. I was a...

    I think there's space for bot posting, but it has to be exceptional.

    We have all seen the reddit co-founders talk about the days when digg was the big site and reddit was the small site.

    I was a digg user at the time, and it is often a mistake people make when they say digg killed itself. Digg did not kill itself, reddit killed it, by providing a viable and better(in the minds of users) alternative during a turbulent time period the site was going through. The question is - What made reddit better in the eyes of users?

    Digg users had received 6-12 months of comments on top posts that were "I saw this on reddit earlier". Reddit was getting content before Digg, and the content was being cross posted to Digg.

    When this has been talked about in interviews since, the answer has been "we used bots and alts to get the content and present it as regular users, we also seeded and participated in comment discussion from time to time to bring the quality up".

    Reddit had all the content digg had, sooner, and was providing a cleaner viable alternative. Users obviously had a lot of loyalty and entrenchment, so they weren't willing to move even though they had seen that reddit was supposedly better/faster in their own comment sections. However, once the turbulence of the redesigns hit all hell broke loose and the userbase went into mass-exodus mode. This was then handled poorly, with users feeling like they weren't being listened to (they weren't) - this sealed the deal.

    The point is that this is something that was highly successful for reddit. We shouldn't be scared of it here.

    The only caveat is that it needs to be good content.

    How were they doing it? I don't know. But they were doing it and they've been fairly open about that.

    4 votes
  11. Comment on I think I have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the concept of being transgendered works. Clarifications would be helpful. in ~lgbt

    Awoo
    Link Parent
    What you "think" isn't relevant. Opinions aren't important. Only the facts are important and this is becoming increasingly more understood - When you realise that you are trans is not important....

    I don't think that's necessarily the case.

    What you "think" isn't relevant. Opinions aren't important. Only the facts are important and this is becoming increasingly more understood - When you realise that you are trans is not important. You have always been trans, whether or not you realise and accept it.

    You are making an argument based on ignorance of the topic. Being trans is biological. If being trans is biological then you are trans from the day you were born. It doesn't matter how long it takes to recognise it, it was always there.

    I'm going to assume that you're being honest here and actually do want to learn about the topic, the facts and the science so that you stop saying things that are ignorant. So here is some reading material for various basics of the topic. I've quoted the most recent scientific literature review that highlights a portion of the biological evidence covering dozens of studies:

    How science helps understand gender identity

    Understanding "sex" isn't just a matter of genitals or chromosomes:

    https://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943

    http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/im-xy-know-sex-determination-systems-101/

    https://www.gp.brightonandhoveccg.nhs.uk/new-thinking-about-gender

    Evidence that being transgender is biological (need free account so I've quoted synopsis)

    Evidence Supporting the Biologic Nature of Gender Identity
    Aruna Saraswat, MD; Jamie D. Weinand, BA, BS; Joshua D. Safer, MD

    Objective To review current literature that supports a biologic basis of gender identity.

    Methods A traditional literature review.

    Results Evidence that there is a biologic basis for gender identity primarily involves (1) data on gender identity in patients with disorders of sex development (DSDs, also known as differences of sex development) along with (2) neuroanatomical differences associated with gender identity.

    Conclusions Although the mechanisms remain to be determined, there is strong support in the literature for a biologic basis of gender identity.

    Transgender women have same brain patterns as women

    Transgender men have same brain patterns as men


    Full NHS GP's guide to supporting trans patients


    If you want even more. Head to /r/science and search for "transgender". The subreddit did an entire week of AMAs with top figures in the field. Every thread had thousands of comments and hundreds of questions answered. They're invaluable for learning the topic.

    4 votes
  12. Comment on Daily Tildes discussion - starting some moderation in ~tildes.official

    Awoo
    Link Parent
    Because: Edits made should be permanent. There is zero point to editing a page if the previous version of the page will be visible. The point of editing something is for editing it. Removing the...

    Why would a diff or change log not be possible for a page?

    Because:

    1. Edits made should be permanent. There is zero point to editing a page if the previous version of the page will be visible. The point of editing something is for editing it.
    2. Removing the rights of users to edit their content permanently will just result in them deleting the content and posting an entirely new comment with the correction.
    3. Removing content as a moderator should actually remove the content. Not just make it less visible and require an extra click to go back to a previous revision for the removed content. Nobody wants to see "nigger this" "nigger that". It just does not need to be saved.
    4. People post personal information of other people. This needs to be removed.
    5. Coders accidentally post copy/pasted code that includes IP addresses or other security-unsafe things. These need to be permanently removed. Not just made less visible.

    These should all be very obvious to a person with moderator experience. These happen in every subreddit with over 20k subs. Users make mistakes and post things they should not. These aren't always noticed by the users and they need removing for their own protection. These are sometimes noticed by the users and they edit them themselves, etc etc. Either way doesn't matter - both should be permanent changes that aren't visible to others.

    The negatives far outweigh the gains.

    1 vote
  13. Comment on Daily Tildes discussion - starting some moderation in ~tildes.official

    Awoo
    Link Parent
    This has been gone over dozens of times so far. Having a public log of moderation is a bad idea and nobody with moderation experience supports it at all. Even more importantly - It's not possible...

    This has been gone over dozens of times so far. Having a public log of moderation is a bad idea and nobody with moderation experience supports it at all.

    Even more importantly - It's not possible to add a git log of changes to a page over time. Users editing their own comments should be a permanent and irreversible change that is not visible to other users.

    Things that get removed by moderators should not be visible to users. That goes against the entire point of removing things. If you remove 40 comments of hatespeech for the benefit of people that don't want to see a large amount of it and leave the note "removed for hatespeech" in its place then it arguably has exactly the same effect as if the hatespeech were there anyway, it shows a tonne of hate existing. Making it go away entirely is far far better for the benefit of users.

    Contrary to popular belief mod abuse is actually rare, and where it does occur it is usually negligible in effect anyway.

    In top-down system where Tildes is taking responsibility for the actions of moderators a moderator will no longer be able to get away with the kinds of actions or behaviours you see from mods on reddit anyway as their actions will be monitored by Tildes itself. I can tell you with absolute certainty that good mods will not be allowing bad mods to get away with their behaviour. If good mods of reddit could report bad moderation to reddit itself and have those mods removed for it they absolutely would.

    4 votes
  14. Comment on I think I have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the concept of being transgendered works. Clarifications would be helpful. in ~lgbt

    Awoo
    Link
    I know you've edited, but I think this deserves a comment of its own to explain the edit correctly. Please stop saying "transgendered". If you said that someone has been "gayed" everyone would...

    I know you've edited, but I think this deserves a comment of its own to explain the edit correctly.

    Please stop saying "transgendered".

    If you said that someone has been "gayed" everyone would jump down your throat for it as it's just ridiculous. Nobody is "transgendered", they are transgender, they have always been transgender, they will always be transgender, in much the same way nobody is "gayed".


    As for your post. There is no contradiction. You are conflating norms associated with a gender with enforcement of norms within society.

    Nobody is trying to say that a majority of one gender doesn't have a preference for x or a majority of the other gender doesn't have a preference for y, in potentially biological causes.

    LGBT people are fighting against the ENFORCEMENT of gender norms because they are harmful to those outside of those gender norms. Whether it be the enforcement of "men should only have relationships with women, never other men" or whether it be the enforcement of "you can't be a man because we assigned you as a woman at birth, bad luck".

    4 votes
  15. Comment on Daily Tildes discussion - starting some moderation in ~tildes.official

    Awoo
    Link Parent
    I think what's important to remember here is that Algernon is projecting the fact that he's had this discussion a thousand times, not here but on reddit it comes up all the time. Algernon's a...

    I think what's important to remember here is that Algernon is projecting the fact that he's had this discussion a thousand times, not here but on reddit it comes up all the time.

    Algernon's a pretty measured person and well spoken most of the time here, but moderators of reddit have a few trigger-topics and have been conditioned by reddit to VERY aggressively defend that position because anything short of macho-assertive-aggression on the topic can fail to garner upvotes in a thread. This can then spiral into a whole section of a community rallying to the side of public logs/messages which is a terrifying and dangerous prospect for reddit mods. In particular because, honestly, 80%+ of reddit's mod teams are really very very rude behind the scenes to users and it would make them look pretty awful. But also because of the very good justifications here that you've seen @deimos agree with.

    Not saying that it's right for Algernon to have failed to filter himself properly here. But some context on why the topic provokes such a strong reaction is probably useful here in providing understanding of the human and for the person emotionally speaking behind those words due to experiences and conditioning.

    It's not impossible for mods to filter themselves, but it's easy to forget yourself, forget the venue, and given that he has no responsibilities here I can see why he would speak more candidly or be less-filtered. I tend to do a pretty ok job at it, I'm not endorsing it, but understanding it can help a lot in these discussions to avoid some poor language choice causing a spiral of two users going at each other tit for tat in increasingly aggressive ways.

    5 votes
  16. Comment on Daily Tildes discussion - general feedback/questions in ~tildes.official

    Awoo
    Link Parent
    You'll need to visit old.reddit.com/r/cyberpunkgame if you have opted into the redesign. The redesign of reddit removes all custom css. Don't get me wrong, lots of the rest of the design leaves...

    You'll need to visit old.reddit.com/r/cyberpunkgame if you have opted into the redesign. The redesign of reddit removes all custom css. Don't get me wrong, lots of the rest of the design leaves much to be desired, but the background specifically and text on the textured background is just... Pleasant.

  17. Comment on Daily Tildes discussion - general feedback/questions in ~tildes.official

    Awoo
    Link Parent
    Next time you come around to design thoughts I hit on an interesting one. I was browsing /r/cyberpunkgame and was struck by how much I prefer the background of a page being textured. It's far...

    Next time you come around to design thoughts I hit on an interesting one. I was browsing /r/cyberpunkgame and was struck by how much I prefer the background of a page being textured. It's far nicer than a single block of colour - easier on the eyes.

    I like it so much I really want it to become something commonplace online. It's pleasant like the texture of a page of paper in a book.

    1 vote
  18. Comment on Daily Tildes discussion - general feedback/questions in ~tildes.official

    Awoo
    Link Parent
    Blocking kinda implies a negative though. I don't block posts on reddit, I just hide the ones that I'm done with. Every single day I hide 100+ things. After having read/looked at them, I'll hide...

    Blocking kinda implies a negative though. I don't block posts on reddit, I just hide the ones that I'm done with.

    Every single day I hide 100+ things. After having read/looked at them, I'll hide them to no longer have them as part of /r/all.

    This functionally keeps you on top of what is newer and most recent, things you have not yet seen.

    I might want to go back to things later, and I don't really want it to be in a "blocked" place. Not really for any functional difference but purely for the psychological reasoning - I have no negative towards those posts.

    "Don't show this." is more accurate and neutral. It can be used for blocking or for just removing from the feed.

    I'm surprised "Filter" isn't suggested here already.

  19. Comment on Topic listings can now be filtered to a specific tag in ~tildes.official

    Awoo
    Link Parent
    If I'm reading this correctly, the intention here would look a little like the way booru sites categorise images right? You let all users tag images and then have moderators that curate the tags....

    If I'm reading this correctly, the intention here would look a little like the way booru sites categorise images right?

    You let all users tag images and then have moderators that curate the tags.

    You then also have tag synonyms, tags that essentially do exactly the same thing as another tag. A facebook tag is the same as fb, for example.

    Is this interpretation correct? If so I completely agree with it. It's the most powerful and functional way of tagging things I've seen and it works for even the most nuanced of things...

    I would even go so far as to suggest allowing all users to tag when you have the moderation for it. And then letting it get sorted out by mods. I think a positive side of this is that it will get heavily abused by bad users, which will be a relatively painless way to identify bad users without them actually affecting the comments or other users. A malicious tag for "gay agenda" is much much more preferable to a derailing comment. And is super easy for moderators to fix. Less intrusive than the malicious commenting activity to the majority of the userbase and really not very damaging to the site as a whole. Easy bans.

    Giving the bad people ways to out themselves as bad users and remove them without actually harming most of the community seems like a really solid concept. At least for as long as the site is invite-only.

    1 vote
  20. Comment on A visit to Peterborough cathedral in ~creative

    Awoo
    Link Parent
    Not fluff. Good work, nice photography, and all of our cathedrals are beautiful places. Photography is creative and art just as much as the other mediums. If it's being posted here by artists...

    Not fluff. Good work, nice photography, and all of our cathedrals are beautiful places.

    Photography is creative and art just as much as the other mediums. If it's being posted here by artists themselves as opposed to just being posted by fans I can't see any way for people to suggest that's fluffy or not valuable. Original art is always valuable.

    6 votes