17 votes

Abduction as romance

21 comments

  1. [9]
    Paige
    Link
    This is a good critique, I'm just sad that it even needs to be said at all. When women watch movies like the transporter, and v for vendetta, this shit is obvious. My reaction to this video essay...

    This is a good critique, I'm just sad that it even needs to be said at all. When women watch movies like the transporter, and v for vendetta, this shit is obvious. My reaction to this video essay is kinda just "well no shit". Still though, I've spent enough time on reddit to know that this shit is probably a shocking new perspective to a lot of guys, so I guess it does need to be said.

    10 votes
    1. [3]
      teaearlgraycold
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      For me it's more so that the video points out that this pattern is used bizarrely often. When I watch older films it's painful to watch as Sean Connery strangles a woman into a kiss. I think very...

      For me it's more so that the video points out that this pattern is used bizarrely often. When I watch older films it's painful to watch as Sean Connery strangles a woman into a kiss. I think very few of my peers wouldn't recognize that as rape-y. I recently watched V for Vendetta and couldn't believe how ridiculous Evie's capture and torture was.

      But for one reason or another I just figured these things were poorly written stories coming from poor/creepy writers - that each incident was a unique problem. Having seen the video I wonder why this happens so often. What does it say about our society that this is so common? You could see a film where a woman kidnaps a man for some righteous cause and he eventually falls in love with her. But you don't. Why is that?

      7 votes
      1. Catt
        Link Parent
        So true. And I love that the video did point out that it's always a white male character. Can you imagine watching a black man in the trope?

        You could see a film where a woman kidnaps a man for some righteous cause and he eventually falls in love with her. But you don't. Why is that?

        So true. And I love that the video did point out that it's always a white male character. Can you imagine watching a black man in the trope?

        4 votes
      2. jprich
        Link Parent
        Wait, its been a while since I read the comic or saw the movie but, Evie was supposed to be in love with V? Seriously?

        Wait, its been a while since I read the comic or saw the movie but, Evie was supposed to be in love with V?
        Seriously?

    2. [5]
      Catt
      Link Parent
      Though I agree, it's pretty obvious, I have to admit, I never thought of v for vendetta that way. Maybe because v was such an extreme character in all ways and that I didn't really buy their "love...

      Though I agree, it's pretty obvious, I have to admit, I never thought of v for vendetta that way. Maybe because v was such an extreme character in all ways and that I didn't really buy their "love story". Still, I can't really disagree.

      Passengers was dead on for me. I honestly found it really creepy while watching it.

      2 votes
      1. [4]
        teaearlgraycold
        Link Parent
        Passengers seemed like it had so much potential. After hearing reviews and watching a few videos on YouTube about it - I don't think I'll ever watch it. Everyone makes it out as if it's a huge let...

        Passengers seemed like it had so much potential. After hearing reviews and watching a few videos on YouTube about it - I don't think I'll ever watch it. Everyone makes it out as if it's a huge let down.

        1 vote
        1. [3]
          Catt
          Link Parent
          It really was a let down. I thought I would like it, love the actors, love space, love the concept. It really was just extremely depressing and then creepy and then cringy. It would have been...

          It really was a let down. I thought I would like it, love the actors, love space, love the concept. It really was just extremely depressing and then creepy and then cringy.

          It would have been better as a thriller than a romantic film.

          3 votes
          1. [2]
            teaearlgraycold
            Link Parent
            Have you seen Nerdwriter's video on Passengers? The movie could have been saved in the editing room.

            Have you seen Nerdwriter's video on Passengers? The movie could have been saved in the editing room.

            1 vote
            1. Catt
              Link Parent
              I did! And I completely agree with him.

              I did! And I completely agree with him.

              3 votes
  2. [10]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. [5]
      Catt
      Link Parent
      I am not sure if it's saying only men enjoy these, as much as it's pointing out only women are victims in these tropes.

      I am not sure if it's saying only men enjoy these, as much as it's pointing out only women are victims in these tropes.

      7 votes
      1. [2]
        quacker
        Link Parent
        The only thing I noticed was when he called it a "male fantasy" @ 11:15. Full quote so that it is not taken out of context. The only other comment I have of the video is the narrative that helps...

        The only thing I noticed was when he called it a "male fantasy" @ 11:15. Full quote so that it is not taken out of context.

        The insidious thing about scenes like this one is that they're written to twist a man's abusive behavior into a heroic act of love. The narrative is specifically designed so that we the audience will view Kyle's aggression towards Sarah as both reasonable and necessary. The storytelling trick here is to set up an elaborate scenario in which a woman's perfectly reasonable and rational resistance to male violence seems like a naive mistake. And that framing is not accidental. It's a specific kind of male fantasy, where a man taking a way a women's freedom and fundamental rights, is presented as something done for her own good, which results in situations where she becomes dependent on her abductor for survival.

        The only other comment I have of the video is the narrative that helps viewers to the following conclusion: "white men are the perpetrators in these scenes" and "these behaviors are actually red flags of domestic abuse" lead to "this helps perpetuate domestic abuse by men" when in fact domestic abuse is perpetrated and endured by both men and women.

        However, women are more frequently the victims in both the movies and reality.

        3 votes
        1. Catt
          Link Parent
          Though he could have used "fantasy" instead of "male fantasy", I do believe it's because when these tropes are used, it's almost always from the man's point-of-view. So even if both men and women...

          Though he could have used "fantasy" instead of "male fantasy", I do believe it's because when these tropes are used, it's almost always from the man's point-of-view. So even if both men and women share these fantasies, the movies are written (or at least feel like they are) written for men. The obvious exception is The Beauty and the Beast. I'm not going to get into that one because it can honestly be its own book.

          The only other comment I have of the video is the narrative that helps viewers to the following conclusion: "white men are the perpetrators in these scenes" and "these behaviors are actually red flags of domestic abuse" lead to "this helps perpetuate domestic abuse by men" when in fact domestic abuse is perpetrated and endured by both men and women.

          I would argue this trope hurts both men and women when it comes to domestic abuse. These are the same tropes that make it difficult for men to come forward because to picture a victim is so often to picture a woman.

          2 votes
      2. [3]
        Comment deleted by author
        Link Parent
        1. teaearlgraycold
          Link Parent
          It's not possible to make a statement of this form and not commit rhetorical suicide. There are plenty of women who enjoy dominating their partners sexually.

          women don't fantasize about having control over and dominating a man

          It's not possible to make a statement of this form and not commit rhetorical suicide. There are plenty of women who enjoy dominating their partners sexually.

          5 votes
        2. cfabbro
          Link Parent
          Uh, doesn't your own link show that your statement there is untrue?

          Uh, doesn't your own link show that your statement there is untrue?

          Interestingly, the women who reported having frequent rape fantasies were also likely to report having fantasies about "overpowering or forcing a man to surrender sexually against his will."

          4 votes
    2. [3]
      Petril
      Link Parent
      What you seem to be saying is "It's exactly the same for men and women to have these fantasies." But I have a problem with that statement. If a woman has a rape/force fantasy, she is putting...

      What you seem to be saying is "It's exactly the same for men and women to have these fantasies." But I have a problem with that statement.

      If a woman has a rape/force fantasy, she is putting herself in a position of helplessness, but there is also a power in that, too. She is choosing to be helpless. It can often help women who have been raped because they are making the choice of their own free will, and hopefully, she can stop it at any time with a word. Or a thought, if it is an internal fantasy.

      The difference when a man has a fantasy of raping/abducting a woman is that he is taking choice away from someone else and giving power to himself. I am not saying that this is inherently wrong, I am saying that it is very different.

      Where it scares me is that if we continue to perpetuate the untruth that shit like this is "normal sexual behavior," we continue to foster more men who have no idea what rape is. I'm sure the average man would never hold someone down while they were saying "no." But he might think "to get the girl, I have to relentlessly pursue her." "If I am persuasive enough, she will have sex with me." "It's sweet to hold a girl while she struggles to get away from me." <-- I've literally seen Facebook memes about that last one.

      If the above is mutually agreed upon by humans who trust each other, it is fine. But if a guy just assumes that that's what women want, he puts women in a dangerous situation.

      It also damages men in many ways, but one of the less talked-about ones is that it portrays men as the "always abusers, never abused." Which leads boys and men to think that it abuse doesn't happen to men, so if it does, they clam up about it. "She promised she wouldn't have sex with you before she handcuffed you to the bed, then once you were handcuffed, she had sex with you? Even though you asked her to stop and said you weren't ready? Dude, that's so awesome." <- That is a paraphrasing of a conversation a dear (male) friend of mine had with his best friend after he opened up about his teenage girlfriend literally raping him. He didn't tell another soul for 15 years and it fucked him up inside.

      So, I guess what I'm saying is:

      The video makes out like this entire trope is for the exclusive benefit and enjoyment of men.

      So what?

      4 votes
      1. [2]
        jprich
        Link Parent
        "If a woman has a rape/force fantasy, she is putting herself in a position of helplessness, but there is also a power in that, too. She is choosing to be helpless... The difference when a man has...

        "If a woman has a rape/force fantasy, she is putting herself in a position of helplessness, but there is also a power in that, too. She is choosing to be helpless...

        The difference when a man has a fantasy of raping/abducting a woman is that he is taking choice away from someone else and giving power to himself..."

        This is a statement that you know in your head to be correct it but to read/hear it written/spoken by someone just kind of smacks you in the face with it.

        Well done.

        3 votes
        1. Petril
          Link Parent
          I'm glad! I had that same experience yesterday when I saw someone on reddit post a quote: My jaw about hit the floor.

          I'm glad! I had that same experience yesterday when I saw someone on reddit post a quote:

          If you're promoting changes to women's behaviour to "prevent" rape, you're really saying "make sure he rapes the other girl."

          My jaw about hit the floor.

          4 votes
    3. Cyhchan
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      I think this is one of the major problems with the abduction as romance trope. It may appeal to women as well but it seems like it is always one-sided, with men using physical force to kidnap and...

      Interestingly, the women who reported having frequent rape fantasies were also likely to report having fantasies about "overpowering or forcing a man to surrender sexually against his will."

      I think this is one of the major problems with the abduction as romance trope. It may appeal to women as well but it seems like it is always one-sided, with men using physical force to kidnap and subdue women. The opposite is almost never seen in movies (at least none that I can think of, but I could be wrong).

      3 votes
  3. [3]
    quacker
    Link
    This is a pretty great video. I can't imagine all the time it took to collect those scenes across so many different movies. I'm still thinking about the The Terminator example of Kyle abducting...

    This is a pretty great video. I can't imagine all the time it took to collect those scenes across so many different movies.

    I'm still thinking about the The Terminator example of Kyle abducting Sarah Connor. I can see how the plot is structured so that Kyle has maximal reason to force her into to coming with him. He is a soldier from a ruined future, he only has this one chance to save the future, he knows what danger they are in, he needs to act quickly, so he is desperate. This helps the audience forgive him for manhandling Sarah.

    What is the best way to change that, so the audience is not lead to forgive the abusive behavior? I think getting rid of the time travel bit would really hurt the movie. I don't want to remove Kyle, because he gives Sarah a view of the future and because it changes the origin story of John Connor. I also don't like the idea of a change in perspective. You could show the movie from Sarah's perspective from the start, which would be more interesting in some ways, but the semi-omniscient point of view is one of The Terminator's strengths. Some of the best scenes are from the Terminator's perspective.

    One way is to empower Sarah Connor from the start. Instead of a waitress that never fired a gun before, she could be a police officer or military. Although, she would have less drastic character development across movies. Her transformation from regular girl to hardened warrior between the first and second movies is pretty great.

    But Kyle and Sarah's relationship is poorly developed as-is. I think Kyle should be sent to the past weeks or months earlier than the Terminator. I'm not sure how he befriends Sarah. Maybe get a job where she works? Enroll in her college? (probably counts as stalking). But you could create some dynamic between Kyle and Sarah prior to the Terminator showing up, and it would avoid the whole abduction scene.

    1 vote
    1. Rocket_Man
      Link Parent
      Why does it need to be changed? It really does work the way it's written, there in an extreme circumstance and he seems to be acting reasonably within the situation. That being said, the concern...

      Why does it need to be changed? It really does work the way it's written, there in an extreme circumstance and he seems to be acting reasonably within the situation. That being said, the concern with the trope is that it is used too often, is gender asymmetric, and we don't know what impact it has when viewed over and over again. Are people recognizing this as bad behavior or internalizing these messages and incorporating it into their own behavior.

      3 votes
    2. Catt
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      I was thinking about this too. I haven't seen The Terminator in like 20 years, so might have to rewatch it to really discuss it. However, it made me think of The Matrix, where you have a role...

      I was thinking about this too. I haven't seen The Terminator in like 20 years, so might have to rewatch it to really discuss it. However, it made me think of The Matrix, where you have a role reversal. Trinity is the one with all the knowledge and comes into the Matrix to find and help the chosen one - Neo. And though she's firm, a stark difference is Neo's consent. The scene I'm thinking of is near the beginning where she picks him up in the car and either her (or the other woman, whose name I've somehow forgotten) tells him to lift his shirt. Nobody manhandles him. He lifts his own shirt.

      Edit to add, because I forgot:

      But Kyle and Sarah's relationship is poorly developed as-is. I think Kyle should be sent to the past weeks or months earlier than the Terminator. I'm not sure how he befriends Sarah. Maybe get a job where she works? Enroll in her college? (probably counts as stalking). But you could create some dynamic between Kyle and Sarah prior to the Terminator showing up, and it would avoid the whole abduction scene.

      In the Sarah Connor Chronicles, isn't that exactly what Summer Glau's character does? She befriends John.

      2 votes