The list of examples makes more sense in retrospect when you read the actual point later on down: When you look back at the list of examples from this point of view, it's a lot clearer why those...
The list of examples makes more sense in retrospect when you read the actual point later on down:
I thought back to the films I watched and stories I read burrowed deep in the stacks of the library. I began to see something deeper and more insidious behind all those images of dead and dying women.
When we kill women in our stories, we aren’t just annihilating female gendered bodies. We are annihilating the feminine as a force wherever it resides — in women, in men, of the natural world. Because what we really mean when we say we want strong female leads is: “Give me a man but in the body of a woman I still want to see naked.”
It’s difficult for us to imagine femininity itself — empathy, vulnerability, listening — as strong. When I look at the world our stories have helped us envision and then erect, these are the very qualities that have been vanquished in favor of an overwrought masculinity.
When you look back at the list of examples from this point of view, it's a lot clearer why those are the chosen examples. Joi was probably one of the only spirits of femininity in the movie and yet/therefore she had to die. This isn't even giving into applying this reading to the scene where Wallace kills that newborn replicant. I remember a lot of women were disappointed with the portrayal of women in this movie, and not for the usual reasons. It may be worth exploring that instead of finding ways to dismiss it because this article is clearly much more than this brief example it gave as premise to build to another actual point.
The only narrative that I'm painting here: this isn't an article about Blade Runner 2049, stop treating it like it is. Blade Runner 2049 is not under attack. The actual point was missed in the...
The only narrative that I'm painting here: this isn't an article about Blade Runner 2049, stop treating it like it is. Blade Runner 2049 is not under attack.
The actual point was missed in the kneejerk defense of the movie. I brought it up to show why that was given as an example and yet... here we are again.
Fair enough about the narrative bit. I was trying to reframe why the author would have brought up BR2049 under the lens of killing the femininity since it seemed like the person I was replying to...
Fair enough about the narrative bit.
I was trying to reframe why the author would have brought up BR2049 under the lens of killing the femininity since it seemed like the person I was replying to missed that. What I bolded was highlighting that the movies briefly given as examples earlier weren't examples of bad women writing or characters, they were examples of something much more specific regarding the femininity of characters killed (which is also why exploitative movies would not make good examples). I doubt BR2049 is the best example either (it caught my eye when I first read this) but that's why it's one of five examples. If one didn't give the full idea of what the author was really getting at, maybe between the five that would have.
I'd think Luv would have been in the author's "male in woman's body" category along with Robyn Wright's character, and I didn't even remember Mariette since her most pivotal role involved Joi being superimposed onto her. She's one of those characters I'd need a second watch just to even remember exists, and I think it may be the same for others (author included). Joi's the only character I recall finding strength in femininity from a single watch.
I thought her point was obvious. It's not about some women being killed in one movie. It's about the over-use of women being murdered as a plot device across hollywood (and a lack of satisfying...
I thought her point was obvious. It's not about some women being killed in one movie. It's about the over-use of women being murdered as a plot device across hollywood (and a lack of satisfying women characters/women character arcs in general).
Your comment reads like so many situations where a woman says something and a man can’t believe it unless she provides a long list of supporting evidence. I don’t know if you’re a man or not, but...
Your comment reads like so many situations where a woman says something and a man can’t believe it unless she provides a long list of supporting evidence. I don’t know if you’re a man or not, but I imagine the author is not trying to prove beyond all doubt that this is happening. I think there will be many people, especially women, who read this and understand it without needing a definitive proof. If you’re skeptical it may be because you don’t experience the world the same way, and that’s fine.
I’ve heard the difference between a room of men talking and a room of women talking is that with the men, everyone need to prove their point or it will be shot down with some hostility. With women, I’ve heard, it’s a more collaborative effort of different women saying what comes to mind. They aren’t expected to prove everything. And through discussion the group develops a common understanding. When a man enters that space they will think no one can prove what they are saying, but it’s more likely they just aren’t trying to do that. Not everyone needs proof to hear another person.
Well I don’t agree that strong accusations “should” be backed up by evidence all of the time. I think it’s perfectly reasonable for someone to say “I’ve observed this problem” without definitively...
Well I don’t agree that strong accusations “should” be backed up by evidence all of the time. I think it’s perfectly reasonable for someone to say “I’ve observed this problem” without definitively proving it. Part of what makes it acceptable is that there isn’t really anything actionable for the reader. Whether or not we believe the authors premise there isn’t much we would do in response. We can just think about these assertions as we watch more movies and make our minds up for ourselves. No hard proof needed.
Bold to minimize the lived experiences of an actress and filmmaker who stated there were so few non-sexist roles for women that she had to start writing her own movies and tv shows down to "she...
Right now it's just "I saw a few women getting killed in a few movies".
Bold to minimize the lived experiences of an actress and filmmaker who stated there were so few non-sexist roles for women that she had to start writing her own movies and tv shows down to "she saw some women get killed in a few movies" but ok.
Brit Marling has worked in the industry for over a decade, and she also has the added qualification of : being a woman. Maybe it's worth listening to and respecting her perspective without...
Brit Marling has worked in the industry for over a decade, and she also has the added qualification of : being a woman. Maybe it's worth listening to and respecting her perspective without defaulting to doubt.
Also, none of the complaints she has raised are new. Many women have been saying the same thing for ages. Someone made a list about it 20 years ago.
Stuffed in the fridge and Disposable Women are well established tropes. Considering that only 34% of speaking characters are women (in 2019 - a record year for female representation - the back catalogue of movies is less), and there are twice as many men on screen than women - tropes like this have a disproportionate impact as well.
Tbh, I think you need to listen more and talk less. If you insist on bickering about it, at least make sure you understand the background and context of the topic you are bickering about.
from your earlier comment: . It is the background understanding that we should all have before nitpicking. More men probably do die in movies! But there is guaranteed to also be several well...
It's not about "counting" anything, it's exactly about the wider the context and looking at films and fiction in general.
from your earlier comment:
Right now it's just "I saw a few women getting killed in a few movies". Okay ... also plenty of movies with guys getting killed.
.
This is a completely different point than what's in the article.
It is the background understanding that we should all have before nitpicking.
More men probably do die in movies! But there is guaranteed to also be several well developed male characters in those same movies with agency and speaking roles.
When you have few women with speaking roles, and of those women a big chunk are just the love interest (or whatever) who's character arc revolves around male characters, a big chunk are shitty two-dimensional caricatures, and then a big chunk of that subpar pool are killed off or raped - then yes! it is bad! and it's worth questioning why it happens, and what it says about writers and society.
I'm not sorry for sounding patronising. As I pointed out, this has been publicly discussed for decades. Every single article that talks about global warming doesn't need to prove it exists. So why do men get mad when every single article discussing the female perspective doesn't quantifiably prove that our perspectives and complaints are valid?
Also, if you are going to get upset about people being patronising to you, you shouldn't start off the comment train with a dismissive comment like:
Sometimes people just look too deep into this kind of stuff, and it seems that no matter how you portray a female character someone will complain about something.
Note: I didn't reveal everything, but there are spoilers if you haven't seen Blade Runner 2049 yet. I should probably see the movie again since it's been a while, but my take on Blade Runner 2049...
Note: I didn't reveal everything, but there are spoilers if you haven't seen Blade Runner 2049 yet.
I should probably see the movie again since it's been a while, but my take on Blade Runner 2049 was that it's fundamentally from the point of view of the male heterosexual single lonely alienated guy and how he's constantly bombarded by advertising that uses promises of sex and companionship to sell stuff to him. Whether it's enormous corporations with their huge video billboards or prostitutes on the street, it's basically the same message: you've got to be on your guard against strangers who use your desires against you, because you're on your own, buddy, and nobody's looking out for you.
It seems that K went with the corporate product since it's really quite advanced. With Joi's encouragement, K engages in some elaborate self-deception because the nights are long; the movie is very in-your-face about how he's fooling himself, but leaves the door open for Joi being a real person (whatever that means) despite her limitations. (She is clearly a character and that puts her at the same level from our perspective, but other characters don't respect her.) When he was leaving the apartment and reluctantly brings her along, I wondered if he was thinking about whether she was a real person or not, and compared to what? Ultimately, sentiment (along with practicality) wins out, and is then betrayed, brutally. Twice, actually.
It doesn't seem like a movie that's much about women themselves, but rather about the way their images are reflected and distorted via marketing. K is just one of millions of ordinary "Joes" who want a real relationship and the market does what it can. Whether it's "authentic" Italian pizza or a woman who loves you, the market incentive is to adapt to human desires by reflecting them back at us as if they were something outside us. Even if it never really existed or is fundamentally impossible, make it up. If you can convincingly fake and scale authenticity, you've got a best-selling product.
At the same time, Blade Runner 2049 is a corporate product as well. This part of the story is both an excuse to put vivid images of sexy women in a sci-fi movie (as is useful and almost obligatory to sell tickets), and a way to look profound. Win-win! But, walking out of the theatre, I wasn't sure whether to respect this movie or feel used, again. I guess it's well done, better than most. I'm not sure what I was hoping for. What do you expect from an action movie?
I don't have anything to say about the violence other than that in an action movie, so it's expected. It's not my thing, but sometimes I end up seeing an action movie anyway.
Her definitely explores similar themes with the lonely guy and the corporate product.
These are good movies, but it's perfectly natural to want something actually from a woman's point of view rather than from the outside. I'm wondering what stories there are about a single woman's relationship with the market economy?
I loved The OA! If you had described it to me ahead of time, I would have assumed that I would have hated it, but somehow it worked. I also enjoyed Another Earth. I look forward to whatever she's...
I loved The OA! If you had described it to me ahead of time, I would have assumed that I would have hated it, but somehow it worked. I also enjoyed Another Earth. I look forward to whatever she's got planned next. (I think I heard The OA was cancelled, unfortunately.)
But I have to say, I largely agree with her analysis here. I would love to see broader character portrayals all around.
Please don't copy-paste the text of entire articles onto Tildes. Small excerpts are fine, but the whole thing can't be copied onto a different site unless it's licensed under Creative Commons or...
Please don't copy-paste the text of entire articles onto Tildes. Small excerpts are fine, but the whole thing can't be copied onto a different site unless it's licensed under Creative Commons or something similar.
Thank you!!! I actually hate doing that so much but every time I post something from a paywall site always get multiple comments telling me to do it. I am more than happy to stop doing so.
Thank you!!! I actually hate doing that so much but every time I post something from a paywall site always get multiple comments telling me to do it. I am more than happy to stop doing so.
The list of examples makes more sense in retrospect when you read the actual point later on down:
When you look back at the list of examples from this point of view, it's a lot clearer why those are the chosen examples. Joi was probably one of the only spirits of femininity in the movie and yet/therefore she had to die. This isn't even giving into applying this reading to the scene where Wallace kills that newborn replicant. I remember a lot of women were disappointed with the portrayal of women in this movie, and not for the usual reasons. It may be worth exploring that instead of finding ways to dismiss it because this article is clearly much more than this brief example it gave as premise to build to another actual point.
The only narrative that I'm painting here: this isn't an article about Blade Runner 2049, stop treating it like it is. Blade Runner 2049 is not under attack.
The actual point was missed in the kneejerk defense of the movie. I brought it up to show why that was given as an example and yet... here we are again.
Fair enough about the narrative bit.
I was trying to reframe why the author would have brought up BR2049 under the lens of killing the femininity since it seemed like the person I was replying to missed that. What I bolded was highlighting that the movies briefly given as examples earlier weren't examples of bad women writing or characters, they were examples of something much more specific regarding the femininity of characters killed (which is also why exploitative movies would not make good examples). I doubt BR2049 is the best example either (it caught my eye when I first read this) but that's why it's one of five examples. If one didn't give the full idea of what the author was really getting at, maybe between the five that would have.
I'd think Luv would have been in the author's "male in woman's body" category along with Robyn Wright's character, and I didn't even remember Mariette since her most pivotal role involved Joi being superimposed onto her. She's one of those characters I'd need a second watch just to even remember exists, and I think it may be the same for others (author included). Joi's the only character I recall finding strength in femininity from a single watch.
Perhaps she's referring to the replicant that Niander Wallace (Jordan Leto's character) stabs shortly after she is created because she is infertile?
I thought her point was obvious. It's not about some women being killed in one movie. It's about the over-use of women being murdered as a plot device across hollywood (and a lack of satisfying women characters/women character arcs in general).
Your comment reads like so many situations where a woman says something and a man can’t believe it unless she provides a long list of supporting evidence. I don’t know if you’re a man or not, but I imagine the author is not trying to prove beyond all doubt that this is happening. I think there will be many people, especially women, who read this and understand it without needing a definitive proof. If you’re skeptical it may be because you don’t experience the world the same way, and that’s fine.
I’ve heard the difference between a room of men talking and a room of women talking is that with the men, everyone need to prove their point or it will be shot down with some hostility. With women, I’ve heard, it’s a more collaborative effort of different women saying what comes to mind. They aren’t expected to prove everything. And through discussion the group develops a common understanding. When a man enters that space they will think no one can prove what they are saying, but it’s more likely they just aren’t trying to do that. Not everyone needs proof to hear another person.
Well I don’t agree that strong accusations “should” be backed up by evidence all of the time. I think it’s perfectly reasonable for someone to say “I’ve observed this problem” without definitively proving it. Part of what makes it acceptable is that there isn’t really anything actionable for the reader. Whether or not we believe the authors premise there isn’t much we would do in response. We can just think about these assertions as we watch more movies and make our minds up for ourselves. No hard proof needed.
Bold to minimize the lived experiences of an actress and filmmaker who stated there were so few non-sexist roles for women that she had to start writing her own movies and tv shows down to "she saw some women get killed in a few movies" but ok.
Google rape culture. There is more than one woman making this claim.
Brit Marling has worked in the industry for over a decade, and she also has the added qualification of : being a woman. Maybe it's worth listening to and respecting her perspective without defaulting to doubt.
Also, none of the complaints she has raised are new. Many women have been saying the same thing for ages. Someone made a list about it 20 years ago.
Stuffed in the fridge and Disposable Women are well established tropes. Considering that only 34% of speaking characters are women (in 2019 - a record year for female representation - the back catalogue of movies is less), and there are twice as many men on screen than women - tropes like this have a disproportionate impact as well.
Coming at it from an angle of counting dead male vs. female characters misses the point, and the wider context. The overwhelming majority of movies have more than two male characters, who talk to each other, about something other than a woman.
Tbh, I think you need to listen more and talk less. If you insist on bickering about it, at least make sure you understand the background and context of the topic you are bickering about.
from your earlier comment:
.
It is the background understanding that we should all have before nitpicking.
More men probably do die in movies! But there is guaranteed to also be several well developed male characters in those same movies with agency and speaking roles.
When you have few women with speaking roles, and of those women a big chunk are just the love interest (or whatever) who's character arc revolves around male characters, a big chunk are shitty two-dimensional caricatures, and then a big chunk of that subpar pool are killed off or raped - then yes! it is bad! and it's worth questioning why it happens, and what it says about writers and society.
I'm not sorry for sounding patronising. As I pointed out, this has been publicly discussed for decades. Every single article that talks about global warming doesn't need to prove it exists. So why do men get mad when every single article discussing the female perspective doesn't quantifiably prove that our perspectives and complaints are valid?
Also, if you are going to get upset about people being patronising to you, you shouldn't start off the comment train with a dismissive comment like:
Note: I didn't reveal everything, but there are spoilers if you haven't seen Blade Runner 2049 yet.
I should probably see the movie again since it's been a while, but my take on Blade Runner 2049 was that it's fundamentally from the point of view of the male heterosexual single lonely alienated guy and how he's constantly bombarded by advertising that uses promises of sex and companionship to sell stuff to him. Whether it's enormous corporations with their huge video billboards or prostitutes on the street, it's basically the same message: you've got to be on your guard against strangers who use your desires against you, because you're on your own, buddy, and nobody's looking out for you.
It seems that K went with the corporate product since it's really quite advanced. With Joi's encouragement, K engages in some elaborate self-deception because the nights are long; the movie is very in-your-face about how he's fooling himself, but leaves the door open for Joi being a real person (whatever that means) despite her limitations. (She is clearly a character and that puts her at the same level from our perspective, but other characters don't respect her.) When he was leaving the apartment and reluctantly brings her along, I wondered if he was thinking about whether she was a real person or not, and compared to what? Ultimately, sentiment (along with practicality) wins out, and is then betrayed, brutally. Twice, actually.
It doesn't seem like a movie that's much about women themselves, but rather about the way their images are reflected and distorted via marketing. K is just one of millions of ordinary "Joes" who want a real relationship and the market does what it can. Whether it's "authentic" Italian pizza or a woman who loves you, the market incentive is to adapt to human desires by reflecting them back at us as if they were something outside us. Even if it never really existed or is fundamentally impossible, make it up. If you can convincingly fake and scale authenticity, you've got a best-selling product.
At the same time, Blade Runner 2049 is a corporate product as well. This part of the story is both an excuse to put vivid images of sexy women in a sci-fi movie (as is useful and almost obligatory to sell tickets), and a way to look profound. Win-win! But, walking out of the theatre, I wasn't sure whether to respect this movie or feel used, again. I guess it's well done, better than most. I'm not sure what I was hoping for. What do you expect from an action movie?
I don't have anything to say about the violence other than that in an action movie, so it's expected. It's not my thing, but sometimes I end up seeing an action movie anyway.
Her definitely explores similar themes with the lonely guy and the corporate product.
These are good movies, but it's perfectly natural to want something actually from a woman's point of view rather than from the outside. I'm wondering what stories there are about a single woman's relationship with the market economy?
I loved The OA! If you had described it to me ahead of time, I would have assumed that I would have hated it, but somehow it worked. I also enjoyed Another Earth. I look forward to whatever she's got planned next. (I think I heard The OA was cancelled, unfortunately.)
But I have to say, I largely agree with her analysis here. I would love to see broader character portrayals all around.
If you cannot read this, try saving it to Pocket. If you use a Kindle or the Kindle app, the Amazon extension also might work.
Kate Beaton's hilarious take on the 'strong women' trope:
http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=311
http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=336
Please don't copy-paste the text of entire articles onto Tildes. Small excerpts are fine, but the whole thing can't be copied onto a different site unless it's licensed under Creative Commons or something similar.
Thank you!!! I actually hate doing that so much but every time I post something from a paywall site always get multiple comments telling me to do it. I am more than happy to stop doing so.