It didn't say this in the post (because why provide direct access to the source of info, right?) but this are the important links for tomorrow: https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/...
It didn't say this in the post (because why provide direct access to the source of info, right?) but this are the important links for tomorrow:
Seriously, yeay, and I'm looking forward to months and years of cool science pouring in from Jezero Crater. However, I really thought they were promising live video of the landing, directly from...
Seriously, yeay, and I'm looking forward to months and years of cool science pouring in from Jezero Crater.
However, I really thought they were promising live video of the landing, directly from the rover's cameras. Did I just misunderstand? Was anyone else expecting that?
Yeah, at this point, I'm assuming I just misunderstood something in one of the pre-landing briefings. Probably, the data bandwidth from Mars still cannot support live video (especially during the...
Yeah, at this point, I'm assuming I just misunderstood something in one of the pre-landing briefings. Probably, the data bandwidth from Mars still cannot support live video (especially during the high-plasma, high-interference EDL) ... perhaps, hopefully, the rover recorded it all and will be beaming it back home in the coming hours or days.
I wonder: Did they ever mention the bandwidth they're working with, here? Some of these images from previous missions were astonishingly high res but I have no idea if it took minutes or days to...
I wonder: Did they ever mention the bandwidth they're working with, here? Some of these images from previous missions were astonishingly high res but I have no idea if it took minutes or days to transmit these.
May I start a little side-rant? 40+ years ago, NASA found life on Mars. The original Viking missions included a test for current, active life in the martian soil, and that test came back positive....
May I start a little side-rant?
40+ years ago, NASA found life on Mars. The original Viking missions included a test for current, active life in the martian soil, and that test came back positive.
Upon seeing the results, NASA decided the test was faulty ... and never tried to check for life on Mars again.
To this day, the scientists that designed and oversaw the Viking test-for-life experiment insist that it may well have returned an accurate result. To this day, no mission to Mars since then (by NASA or anyone else) has ever tried any kind of test for active life on Mars.
This one, Perseverence, is the first one with the capability to test for active organic biological activity (at least, I think it does) ... but even this mission is focused, 100%, on looking for signs of past life (like, a billion years ago...).
Why would you spend a billion dollars to send a test for life to Mars, get a positive result, just flat-out assume the result was wrong, and then never try again?
... or am I mis-stating, or misunderstanding, how this played out?
ETA: On rereading, this sounds a bit conspiracy-ish. I'm not implying NASA found Martians and then covered it up. Just, why—after the Vikings—did scientists decide that looking for current life on Mars wasn't worth the effort?
While I don't think the results of the Viking missions are as definitive as you're suggesting, apparently you're not the only one a bit confused/disappointed with none of the more recent Mars...
While I don't think the results of the Viking missions are as definitive as you're suggesting, apparently you're not the only one a bit confused/disappointed with none of the more recent Mars missions doing a follow-up to their experiments:
Patricia Straat served as co-experimenter on one of the most controversial experiments ever sent to Mars: the Labeled Release instrument on the Viking Mars landers. The experiment’s principal investigator, Gilbert Levin, insists to this day that the project found extraterrestrial life. Most scientists doubt this interpretation, but the issue has never been fully settled.
...
Scientific American spoke with Straat about the tumultuous process of planning the experiment and analyzing its results, and about the risks of Mars exploration if life does exist on the red planet.
Were most of the team members thinking you’d found life?
Oh no. We weren’t convinced either. The experiment consisted of two parts: one was adding micronutrients to the active soil sample; the second involved heat-sterilizing a duplicate sample of the soil before adding the nutrients to theoretically kill any microbes that might be there. The difference between an active sample and the heat-sterilized control sample would define a positive response. So we had to wait for the next cycle, another 15 sols downstream, before we ran the control. The surprise was that the control was negative. That’s when the controversy really started.
The results met the pre-mission definition of a positive life response. But of course as soon as we got it everyone came up with alternative proposals to account for the results nonbiologically.
What did you think at this point?
I was pretty astounded, but very interested in these nonbiological hypotheses. What we could say at the time was that the result was consistent with a life response. I wasn’t ready to say we had a life response, especially not in view of all the objections.
We tried to think of some way to distinguish whether it was a biological or chemical response. We had heat-sterilized the control sample at 160 degrees centigrade. The suggestion came up that if we could somehow lower the sterilization temperature, we might enhance the biological explanation. If 50 degrees, say, killed the active response, that would be a strong indication that the positive response had been biological. Very few chemicals are destroyed by 50 degrees centigrade. However, we would expect such a low temperature to have a significant effect on Mars microbes because Mars is a much colder environment than Earth.
It turned out that two heaters were needed to reach 160 degrees. We estimated that using just one of them would heat the soil to about 50 degrees. When we did that on Mars, it significantly reduced the positive response. That was fairly strong evidence that the active response had been biological. However, there could be some chemical out there that does the same thing. Nobody has been able to find such a chemical, though.
Gil Levin has been outspoken in saying that the LR experiment found life on Mars. Do you agree?
Initially I didn’t. In the mid-’90s Gil decided that since nobody had found a suitable nonbiological agent, there was enough evidence to say we had discovered life on Mars. I didn’t agree with him. But when, four or five years later, more and more evidence was found for trace amounts of water on Mars, I began to agree that yes, we did find microbial life. The caveat is the lack of organic molecules. Some complex organics have been found on Mars, but they haven’t found simple organics like alanine and glycine [presumably required by life].
What do you think of the Mars missions that have followed Viking?
I’m disappointed that recent missions have not looked for life. They’ve studied the environment and its potential as a habitat. I just don’t understand it. They should have followed through with a second Viking mission to verify and further characterize the positive Labeled Release results.
Now they’re talking about Mars sample return missions and manned missions to Mars. While very exciting, I am concerned about the back-contamination problem. You can’t send people to Mars and return them without returning Mars soil to Earth. And it’s certainly a possibility that life does exist on Mars, whether or not the Labeled Release experiment found it. People really need to bear that in mind when they plan future missions. I think until we know more we should be very cautious about returning a sample.
What do you make of the continued controversy over your experiment’s findings?
I’d say it’s exciting. We might believe that we discovered life on Mars, but we won’t know the true answer for a long time. I would like to see more life detection experiments sent to Mars soon to either prove it or disprove it.
As for an explanation as to why they haven't done a follow-up... you may have already answered that yourself.
Why would you spend a billion dollars to send a test for life to Mars, get a positive result, just flat-out assume the result was wrong, and then never try again?
After spending a billion dollars and still not being able to achieve definitive results and scientific consensus regarding the outcome of your experiments, the risk of "wasting" another billion with a follow-up that might potentially end with the same inconclusive results and controversy probably isn't a particularly appealing idea to the bureaucrats at the top. Especially when there are so many other, less controversial, and more utilitarian experiments being proposed to be sent there instead, and incredibly limited opportunities in which to send any of them.
Perhaps I wasn't clear on this point. NASA spent a billion dollars on the Viking mission. That specific experiment, I'm sure, competed with many others to earn a place on the mission, but on its...
the risk of "wasting" another billion with a follow-up ...
Perhaps I wasn't clear on this point. NASA spent a billion dollars on the Viking mission. That specific experiment, I'm sure, competed with many others to earn a place on the mission, but on its own, was probably pretty cheap.
Since then, NASA spends (I'm guessing here) a billion-plus every year on missions to Mars. They've landed another half-dozen probes and rovers on the planet (and crashed a few more) ... and they have never included any kind of follow-up test for life experiments.
While it's certainly disappointing, IMO it does still make sense because of the other thing I mentioned and assume is a major factor at play: Also: I don't imagine anything being sent to Mars is...
While it's certainly disappointing, IMO it does still make sense because of the other thing I mentioned and assume is a major factor at play:
Especially when there are so many other, less controversial, and more utilitarian experiments being proposed to be sent there instead, and incredibly limited opportunities in which to send any of them.
Also:
but on its own, was probably pretty cheap.
I don't imagine anything being sent to Mars is cheap. ;) That particular experiment may have been cheap, relative to the other included experiments/functions on the lander, but another issue at play is probably how much space a follow-up experiment would have taken up that could have been used for "other, less controversial, and more utilitarian experiments" instead. And with that undoubtedly pretty severe space and weight restriction, it also makes sense that NASA's top brass would potentially be hesitant to risk wasting another slot for such a follow-up experiment given how inconclusive the first turned out to be. IMO, the mind of a bureaucrat is a pretty predictable thing due to how safe they usually try to play everything. :P
Agree to disagree, I guess. Finding extraterrestrial life in the Universe is perhaps the single biggest quest in astronomy; it's definitely right up there at the top of the list, and it certainly...
Agree to disagree, I guess.
Finding extraterrestrial life in the Universe is perhaps the single biggest quest in astronomy; it's definitely right up there at the top of the list, and it certainly has always been one of the primary goals of NASA's Mars exploration ... and yet, 40 years of exploration there has been devoted largely to figuring out whether or not life could have existed there, w/o ever actually checking to see if there is life there right now.
How is it fucking possible I feel like I never heard of this till, literally, the day that thing is supposed to land?!? Was there just too much crazy news on earth to overshadow this?
How is it fucking possible I feel like I never heard of this till, literally, the day that thing is supposed to land?!? Was there just too much crazy news on earth to overshadow this?
The NASA app is one of the only apps I have on my phone that I allow notifications from. It keeps me up to date on what they are doing, tells me when the ISS is flying overhead, posts great...
The NASA app is one of the only apps I have on my phone that I allow notifications from. It keeps me up to date on what they are doing, tells me when the ISS is flying overhead, posts great photos, and more. If you want to be kept in the loop, you may want to look into it.
It didn't say this in the post (because why provide direct access to the source of info, right?) but this are the important links for tomorrow:
Thanks! Good catch.
It has now successfully landed!
Seriously, yeay, and I'm looking forward to months and years of cool science pouring in from Jezero Crater.
However, I really thought they were promising live video of the landing, directly from the rover's cameras. Did I just misunderstand? Was anyone else expecting that?
Yeah, at this point, I'm assuming I just misunderstood something in one of the pre-landing briefings. Probably, the data bandwidth from Mars still cannot support live video (especially during the high-plasma, high-interference EDL) ... perhaps, hopefully, the rover recorded it all and will be beaming it back home in the coming hours or days.
I wonder: Did they ever mention the bandwidth they're working with, here? Some of these images from previous missions were astonishingly high res but I have no idea if it took minutes or days to transmit these.
Amazing!! Loved watching all these people cheer! What unimaginable effort that has been put into making this moment happen!
May I start a little side-rant?
40+ years ago, NASA found life on Mars. The original Viking missions included a test for current, active life in the martian soil, and that test came back positive.
Upon seeing the results, NASA decided the test was faulty ... and never tried to check for life on Mars again.
To this day, the scientists that designed and oversaw the Viking test-for-life experiment insist that it may well have returned an accurate result. To this day, no mission to Mars since then (by NASA or anyone else) has ever tried any kind of test for active life on Mars.
This one, Perseverence, is the first one with the capability to test for active organic biological activity (at least, I think it does) ... but even this mission is focused, 100%, on looking for signs of past life (like, a billion years ago...).
Why would you spend a billion dollars to send a test for life to Mars, get a positive result, just flat-out assume the result was wrong, and then never try again?
... or am I mis-stating, or misunderstanding, how this played out?
ETA: On rereading, this sounds a bit conspiracy-ish. I'm not implying NASA found Martians and then covered it up. Just, why—after the Vikings—did scientists decide that looking for current life on Mars wasn't worth the effort?
While I don't think the results of the Viking missions are as definitive as you're suggesting, apparently you're not the only one a bit confused/disappointed with none of the more recent Mars missions doing a follow-up to their experiments:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/looking-for-life-on-mars-viking-experiment-team-member-reflects-on-divisive-findings/
As for an explanation as to why they haven't done a follow-up... you may have already answered that yourself.
After spending a billion dollars and still not being able to achieve definitive results and scientific consensus regarding the outcome of your experiments, the risk of "wasting" another billion with a follow-up that might potentially end with the same inconclusive results and controversy probably isn't a particularly appealing idea to the bureaucrats at the top. Especially when there are so many other, less controversial, and more utilitarian experiments being proposed to be sent there instead, and incredibly limited opportunities in which to send any of them.
Perhaps I wasn't clear on this point. NASA spent a billion dollars on the Viking mission. That specific experiment, I'm sure, competed with many others to earn a place on the mission, but on its own, was probably pretty cheap.
Since then, NASA spends (I'm guessing here) a billion-plus every year on missions to Mars. They've landed another half-dozen probes and rovers on the planet (and crashed a few more) ... and they have never included any kind of follow-up test for life experiments.
That doesn't make sense.
While it's certainly disappointing, IMO it does still make sense because of the other thing I mentioned and assume is a major factor at play:
Also:
I don't imagine anything being sent to Mars is cheap. ;) That particular experiment may have been cheap, relative to the other included experiments/functions on the lander, but another issue at play is probably how much space a follow-up experiment would have taken up that could have been used for "other, less controversial, and more utilitarian experiments" instead. And with that undoubtedly pretty severe space and weight restriction, it also makes sense that NASA's top brass would potentially be hesitant to risk wasting another slot for such a follow-up experiment given how inconclusive the first turned out to be. IMO, the mind of a bureaucrat is a pretty predictable thing due to how safe they usually try to play everything. :P
Agree to disagree, I guess.
Finding extraterrestrial life in the Universe is perhaps the single biggest quest in astronomy; it's definitely right up there at the top of the list, and it certainly has always been one of the primary goals of NASA's Mars exploration ... and yet, 40 years of exploration there has been devoted largely to figuring out whether or not life could have existed there, w/o ever actually checking to see if there is life there right now.
I was told that images will get posted here as they are received.
https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/multimedia/raw-images/
Related video by Mark Rober (former NASA JPL engineer who worked on Curiosity) from a few days ago:
Mars Rover Landing CRASH COURSE- 1 DAY LEFT!
Another related video from Real Engineering:
The Insane Engineering of the Perseverance Rover
How NASA Designed a Helicopter That Could Fly Autonomously on Mars
How is it fucking possible I feel like I never heard of this till, literally, the day that thing is supposed to land?!? Was there just too much crazy news on earth to overshadow this?
The NASA app is one of the only apps I have on my phone that I allow notifications from. It keeps me up to date on what they are doing, tells me when the ISS is flying overhead, posts great photos, and more. If you want to be kept in the loop, you may want to look into it.
Thanks!