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How do I move past nihilistic depression?
Nothing really matters and I can't enjoy anything anymore knowing that. Games are not that fun anymore, talking to people is boring, we are basically waiting for death and I can't enjoy myself or will myself to work on anything anymore... How do I move past that?
This physically hurts to read, Nietzsche was not a nihilist. Nietzsche's entire purpose was to refute nihilism that was consuming Europe following the collapse of the traditional value structure under modernity. Sorry for the snark, but this is on the same level as saying "Charles Darwin, grandfather of creationism"
This isn't nihilism, and in fact by implicitly assuming that things having meaning is desirable you've already rejected nihilism.
I don't think I would refer to either Nietzschean thought or existentialism as nihilism, but if you do or know people who use a broader definition I apologize. There's been an irritating tendency for people online to lump any kind of rejection of objective or inherit meaning into "nihilism" which really bothers me because it makes light of "real" nihilism which is a dangerous black pit of despair and hopeless which is almost completely intractable to philosophy. It's dangerous. You certainly shouldn't have people promoting "happy nihilism" like that video channel with the cutesy animations did.
I haven't studied philosophy in a formal setting, but I've hung around places like /r/askphilosophy enough to absorb some of their (as in the subreddit's) culture, part of which has been a multitude of well-written and argued posts criticizing definitions of nihilism beyond the nasty and brutish kind, mostly centered around the fact that the "bad" nihilism is such an incoherent and intractable position that it's dishonest to have it share a label with "good" philosophy. I've reached the limits of what I feel somewhat confident discussing though, so I can't offer any arguments for or against that position .
I see it as an issue of scope. The search for truth is not a search for "good truth" or "things which make us feel whole" and it's hard to deny that at the universal scale, there really is nothing. No meaning, no purpose, no joy or suffering, no good or bad. It's not intractable, it' just reality.
But that doesn't preclude us from constraining the problem and zooming in. "Why did I get in my car this morning?... Because I needed to get to work." There's absolutely no reason why we then have to proceed to "why did I need to go to work?" from there if we don't want to. Again, we can, if we choose, follow the typical line of deconstruction towards the inevitable void, but we can also choose not to. I know there are spiders in my house but I choose not to think about them most of the time. I know the void is all around me, but between myself and it, there is at least a bubble of approximate meaning in which I can choose to exist.
That's why I hate all this talk about "bad nihilism." The void, as it were, has no need for normative labels. Saying that spiders are bad and not spending every ounce of energy thinking about them doesn't make them go away. It's really not the global nihilism which is dangerous, it's when people reject the necessary self-delusion required to live with it. That's when you think that they must do nothing but stare into the void because to do anything else is "fake." No shit, it's fake. And sure, lots of people are simply no equipped to live with that weight, so we tell each other that it's dangerous to talk about in hushed voices, afraid that it will spread like a plague. But that's also silly. Clearly self-delusion is humanity's best trick, next to fucking and killing, so what is there honestly to worry about?
What you're describing isn't really what I'd call nihilism, be merely continuing to think about the problem you've implicitly rejected at least some of nihilism and supposed that some things do have value, for example determining the merits of philosophic systems. I don't think many people nowadays disagree that there is no objective value to existence.
It's not really the fear that it will "spread" as much as that a hypothetical complete acceptance of nihilism would involve a renunciation of every single human quality. The result is, at least from our perspective, dangerously unhinged lunatics. I don't believe anyone has really truly ever reached the hypothetical "full nihilism" state though.
Saying that Nietzsche rejected nihilism is in many ways, just as wrong as saying that he promoted it, and it's becoming an obnoxious trend in pop-philosophy IMO. He goes back and for with the idea, in many ways - playing with it and yes - ridiculing it - but also ridiculing others who ridicule it. In many ways, he often lands there without even meaning to, just like so many before him, only to launch himself into another journey to not land there. He is in many ways an irreverent version of Kierkegaard, though it's definitely unclear if that was his intention, or even if he intended to produce a coherent philosophy at all.
And this is my big issue with so much contemporary philosophy - it starts out saying "we believe in nothing besides the fact that nihilism is wrong." Which is honestly hilarious, until you realize that it intends to be taken seriously and that the author intends to spend 800 pages rubbing one out, only to arrive at the conclusion that hard skepticism is totally not nihilism because nihilism is wrong mmk.
Try an hour of moderate to vigorous exercise each day and then report back.
Exercise doesn't work as a treatment for depression. Research tells us that exercise is moderately better than doing nothing, unless you only include well run studies, in which case it doesn't seem to do anything.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23362828
key bit:
There were other articles claiming more or less the same thing (most seem to be based on the same dozen or two RCTs that have been done in the past decade on this subject); so while there is an effect it's moderate, and only willing, motivated, and physically healthy enough people will get something out of it.
I find it hard to write this next bit without snark, so know that it's not aimed at you: when's the last time you saw a depressed person that you could describe as "willing, motivated, and physically healthy"? Sounds like saying you're reviewing running as treatment for paralysis, which works as long as someones legs are working well enough.
(that isn't to say OP and others with depression shouldn't give it a go, but it's really important to mention, especially to someone suffering from depression, that they just might not be able to get up and do the thing. Whether that's running, going to therapy, whatever—each of those tasks can become monumental if someone is depressed.
Yes. Here's a well run meta analysis from a respected organisation: https://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depression
(Emphasis added by me)
Yes, but i) "better than nothing" isn't particularly persuasive. We get that for crystal healing or homeopathy and ii) it's only better than nothing if you include poorly conducted studies. As soon as you only include well run studies the benefit disappears.
I disagree with your assertion "research tells us". Searching on Google with "depression exercise" comes up with these links on the first page.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/exercise-is-an-all-natural-treatment-to-fight-depression
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/depression/in-depth/depression-and-exercise/art-20046495
Here's a well run meta analysis: https://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depression
Here's the results:
[...]
The Cochrane review was published 12 September 2013. The Cochrane review states:
The Harvard link above was published published August, 2013 and updated April 30, 2018.
The May Clinic advice is dated Sept. 27, 2017.
But those links are not meta-analyses, and they're not from Cochrane Collaboration.
Don't be so sure that this is the causal relationship; I know that in my personal experiences with depression this isn't necessarily the way it works. I stop enjoying things leading me to believe nothing matters, or I believe nothing matters so I don't enjoy things. This isn't just a snarky remark, or a trivial matter. It's easy to get bogged down into this thought spiral where everything is rational and leads to the conclusion that life isn't worth it.
Not being able to will yourself is just who you are, at this point in time. That's ok. Letting yourself be weak is a fucking hard, but essential lesson to learn. As for steps moving past, others have given suggestions like exercise, therapy, etc. That might sound like way too much to do all on your own right now, so I'd suggest just one simple step to take: make an appointment. idk what country you're in, but if you've got insurance or a GP, talk to them, or leave a voicemail or an email, and just say "hey i think i need to have a look at if i'm depressed or whatever". Set that as your task for the next week or something, because you can do that, right? That's manageable. And know that it might be quite a journey but it's worth it, you've probably read it from others but people say with good reason that there's a brighter side at the other end.
Lastly, you ask "how do i move past nihilistic depression"; well, you don't need to do it alone. Feel free to ask people for help (like you did here! you're capable of doing it anonymously, so there's nothing stopping you from doing it elsewhere!), and feel free to ask people to help you even with tasks you feel like you should be able to do yourself. You gotta figure out what helps you, and that won't be the same that helps anyone that'll comment here or elsewhere, even what your psychologist might say in the end. It takes time, but if you figure out what works it's fucking worth it.
Also let me add on a little bit that can help you explain these concepts to people who have no personal experience with depression: there's part one and part two of Hyperbole and a Half's depression blogs, which in my experience do a good job of illustrating what it's like to someone who doesn't know. Same with this video by the WHO, I had a black dog, his name was depression; if anything you can use these as tools to show people what you're going through, discuss what you did or didn't like and where your experience aligns or diverges from the video/blog's view.
Find a registered, experienced, therapist who uses cognitive behavioural therapy. This works for about 50% - 60% of the people who try it. Try to find someone who works one to one and face to face. Make sure they're using a pure CBT technique, and they're not blending it with other less rigorous stuff.
This should take one hour per week, for about 14 weeks.
The universe is what it is. Reality is what it is. What matters is entirely subjective, it is not an inherent property of the universe.
Nihilism recognizes this truth. This truth colors the world, it gives us depth, it leaves the doors open for us to realize that a lack of inherent meaning leaves us with freedom to choose what we do. The only consequences are real, not divine.
I think it's more productive to realize that what you're expressing is "nothing matters to me". This is a reality that can be changed, it's a medical issue that is common and can be treated.
Move past it:
I discovered optimistic nihilism! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBRqu0YOH14
The gist is: the world may be meaningless, but what that means is that the only meaning is the meaning is the meaning you derive yourself, so why not enjoy it while we'ere here?
Well there's the standard slate of lifestyle changes you can make: exercise regularly, eat well, sleep regularly, have a productive hobby, help out in your community, force yourself to socialize, etc. These will all help, trust me. The main question to ask yourself though, at least in my opinion, is if you are truly depressed (either philosophically or neurochemically) or if your life is just sucks. If your life sucks, figure out why and work on a plan of action to improve it. If it seems pretty OK, then do some reading:
Thus Spoke Zarathustra by Friedrich Nietzsche - confusing as hell, but fundamentally an affirmation of life
The Outside by Collin Wilson - an examination of "outsiderness" through literature and the lives of several prominent artists. Not everyone gets this book, I personally resonate very strongly with it but if you don't within the first ten or twenty pages I'd probably toss it, you won't get anything out of it.
Camus and Sartre's works - both influential existentialists
Dostoevsky and Kirkegaar - salvation through Christian faith. Perhaps a long shot in todays world, but faith in some kind of religion or spirituality is a great cure for nihilistic thoughts
Exercise does not work as a treatment for depression. Research tells us that exercise is moderately better than doing nothing as a treatment for depression (which isn't a high bar to meet, even homeopathy meets this bar) but if you only include well run trials even this modest benefit of exercise disappears.
I find it incredibly hard to believe that. Perhaps it doesn’t impact the depression per se, but it certainly gives you a positive rush in the short term.
That's what my hippy aunt says about Reiki.
I appreciate your posts. I also write venting poetry from time to time but I've never been brave enough to share it.
It's a good quote, but it's worth noting that it's misattributed.
If you're in that state for 3 weeks or more, go to a psychiatrist ASAP. If you truly have clinical depression (or other depressing mental illness), no internet comment is going to help you (except the ones that refer you to a medical professional, of course). If you don't have a mental illness, all the regular suggestions apply. So exercise, take up hobbies, go out with your friends, and maybe talk to a psychologist.
I'm not sure how much that I have to add but I wanted to say I'm pretty much in the same state that you are. I lost my father back in January and there's been so much death and health scares happening the past couple of years it's really taken a toll on me. Also there's the fact that I can't seem to ever get a break financially and the current politics in the US feels like we are going backwards. Makes it all feel pretty pointless struggling along. I appreciate the posts that people have made and I hope maybe I can find something to lift the depression off of me.
Realize that your wait for death will be a third done, then half done, ect. Life might be meaningless but dying is reality and you'll easily find meaning in that.
If I were to guess, I’d say you’re not doing what you want to be doing with your life. Figure out what you want to do, and go do it.