I really love old communication technology because of the constraints (in this case, self imposed) of their respective eras. Using ultrasonic waves to communicate information was a stroke of...
I really love old communication technology because of the constraints (in this case, self imposed) of their respective eras. Using ultrasonic waves to communicate information was a stroke of genius, and although I would be worried about maybe some degrees of interference, it doesn't seem to work too poorly from the microcontroller videos.
This is a relatively simple, low cost (for the mechanism itself, the outer casing seems to be fabulously crafted with high quality materials), easy to repair device. I would like to see a return of this "less complication is better" design philosophy in modern devices.
Cars. If I had my druthers, no touchscreen anything, and the more mechanical the better in anything involving "optional." I know we can't get away completely from electronics, but I want...
Cars.
If I had my druthers, no touchscreen anything, and the more mechanical the better in anything involving "optional." I know we can't get away completely from electronics, but I want absolutely NOTHING that can access it remotely.
Of course you know that basically every new car will fail most of the requirements you've laid out. But, one notable standout is recent Mazdas, which replace the touchscreen with their...
Of course you know that basically every new car will fail most of the requirements you've laid out. But, one notable standout is recent Mazdas, which replace the touchscreen with their clickwheel-style infotainment control. So many automotive journalists have maligned this system, but IMO it's the best middle ground between the control flexibility of an LCD and the tactility and muscle-memory-ability of mechanical controls. You don't have to reach toward the screen to use it, as the clickwheel falls in a natural spot where your hand rests on the center console, and you often don't even have to look at the display to make a selection. Putting touchscreens in cars is a lazy solution that makes cars less safe to operate, and I don't think Mazda's solution's naysayers ever really gave the clickwheel a chance.
Part of the issue, I think, is there's this detrimental feedback loop in all "review journalism." The reviewers see so many products that they develop these sensibilities that diverge from what actual consumers want. They've already drank the touchscreen Kool-aid, so when confronted with an alternate solution that has its own quirks and learning curves, they just clock out and say it sucks, because in their minds they're trying to give their honest opinion, but they're unable to see that their perspective is skewed from that of their readers. So then some consumers are tainted by these reviews, and in the next generation, the manufacturers react to the reviews and the consumer feedback the reviews have elicited and react, with most or all of them falling into lockstep. This is how you get lots of people wanting to buy products that manufacturers won't make, like small pickup trucks, manual-everything non-connected cars, bottom-price-bracket EVs (and ICE cars for that matter), flagship-quality phones but with small screens, non-smart TVs, etc. There's also of course the money aspect here - manufacturers can steamroll minority consumer wishes because the less-desirable product can command a higher price tag or make more money in residuals. But I think it's the aforementioned feedback loop that keeps the "rational" consumer segment small enough that manufacturers don't have to listen to them.
As someone who was interested in buying a Mazda, I strongly disagree. I did not read the reviews beforehand. I don't drive enough different vehicles to develop review sensibilities different from...
As someone who was interested in buying a Mazda, I strongly disagree.
I did not read the reviews beforehand. I don't drive enough different vehicles to develop review sensibilities different from what a consumer wants.
Why on earth would I want to learn a whole new clickwheel-based interface,while driving? Yes, tactile is almost always better. But I'm no longer pushing buttons to flip radio stations every song or commercial break. And most actions are accomplished through voice commands or steering wheel buttons now anyway, which makes learning a completely new, essentially tab-based interface an awful, pointless, and even more dangerous experience.
By far my most common touchscreen action while driving is to drag a navigation map to see something coming up ahead. I intuitively tap and drag the screen without thinking about it because I already know how to manipulate it. Fiddling with a knob, where I have to actually watch the screen as the right element is selected only to use a strange new interface is a much worse UX.
Who says you have to? Practice in the driveway or the car lot. It won't take that long to understand the important nuances. At that point, it will always be safer than a touchscreen, which will...
Why on earth would I want to learn a whole new clickwheel-based interface,while driving?
Who says you have to? Practice in the driveway or the car lot. It won't take that long to understand the important nuances. At that point, it will always be safer than a touchscreen, which will never give you tactile feedback and will require you to take your eyes off the road during every interaction forever.
You need to take your eyes off the road in order to see your screen anyway. Wasting time becoming proficient in one's driveway only helps with the interactions you do frequently enough to...
You need to take your eyes off the road in order to see your screen anyway.
Wasting time becoming proficient in one's driveway only helps with the interactions you do frequently enough to memorize. Unless this knob system also requires weekly driveway practice sessions?
so, if we boil all this down, you're saying that a touchscreen interface is just as safe on the road as a tactile interface for info display. is that what you're saying?
so, if we boil all this down, you're saying that a touchscreen interface is just as safe on the road as a tactile interface for info display. is that what you're saying?
I'm saying that the Mazda knob is dreadful, and if it requires spending time in one's driveway in order to safely use it it's a terrible alternative to a touchscreen everyone already understands...
I'm saying that the Mazda knob is dreadful, and if it requires spending time in one's driveway in order to safely use it it's a terrible alternative to a touchscreen everyone already understands combined with steering wheel and voice controls with the slightest modicum of common sense. And if you lack that common sense there is zero chance you're going to master a tab knob, making your driving even more dangerous.
then we disagree. with a touchscreen you cant even tell if your effort has been effective without looking away from the road. any other tactile interface will be better by default, once you learn...
then we disagree. with a touchscreen you cant even tell if your effort has been effective without looking away from the road. any other tactile interface will be better by default, once you learn the order of menu options.
Strongly disagree. My onscreen actions are verified by eyesight, in cases like dragging the navigation map ahead. This follows a known, easily predictable interface that arrives where I expect it...
Strongly disagree.
My onscreen actions are verified by eyesight, in cases like dragging the navigation map ahead. This follows a known, easily predictable interface that arrives where I expect it to without taking my eyes off the road.
In other cases, like selecting podcast episodes, it's a matter of browsing through favourite podcasts and selecting recent episodes. There is no amount of muscle memory that can substitute for having to look and decide what you want to hear next, and if you're looking anyway you may as well choose the more known, efficient interface. I can put my hand back on the wheel just as quickly from the touchscreen as you can from the centre console.
the point isnt about taking hands off the wheel (there is no dashboard interface that requires you to take both hands off the wheel). the point is about taking eyes off the road. i would think...
the point isnt about taking hands off the wheel (there is no dashboard interface that requires you to take both hands off the wheel). the point is about taking eyes off the road. i would think that would be pretty clear...
Everyone will have their own opinions about things of course. That said, I've driven a 2021 Mazda 3 for two years now, and here are my more specific thoughts. To use a touchscreen you always have...
Everyone will have their own opinions about things of course. That said, I've driven a 2021 Mazda 3 for two years now, and here are my more specific thoughts.
To use a touchscreen you always have to look at the screen to use it, because there is nothing physical to indicate when you've selected the element you want. With the clickwheel, you'll develop muscle memory for how many clicks away certain things are.
Usually I'm using Android Auto, and while that interface isn't primarily designed for the clickwheel it works well. I don't have the built-in non-Android Auto navigation, so I can't speak to that.
Also, I don't think the clickwheel learning curve is as steep as you're making it out to be. Rather than tap the thing you want, you spin the wheel to cycle through the things and then click once you reach the one you want. It's slightly less intuitive than "touch the thing", but safer once you grasp how it works. But maybe my "shallow learning curve" perspective here is colored because I've gotten over said curve. Everything's easy once you've mastered it, etc.
I also have a 2003 Tacoma for truck stuff that I installed a normal aftermarket touchscreen Android Auto head unit in, and I much prefer the Mazda's infotainment system.
Never tried an aftermarket unit, but I now use built-in Android auto as well. Almost all of my interactions are through the voice command and seek buttons on the steering wheel. I don't think I...
Never tried an aftermarket unit, but I now use built-in Android auto as well. Almost all of my interactions are through the voice command and seek buttons on the steering wheel.
I don't think I touch the screen often enough to develop a muscle memory for anything. What are you selecting?
I tap when I need to select a podcast episode. But (a) that's usually at the beginning of my trip and (b) there's no muscle memory because every time is different. I have to look at the screen to see what I'm currently selecting either way.
I also tap when in navigation and I want to see a bit further ahead. It's a tap and drag in the direction I want to see — how is that even possible with the click wheel? I'd imagine it just zooms, unless they've added directional buttons you have to select and then rotate on?
All of these interactions are driver initiated. I can do them at a stop light or any other low event moment. I'm a big fan of pretty much everything tactile, but that knob was an instant turn off for me. That and the really small windows!
You really don't like the clickwheel and never need to do complex controls on the infotainment screen while driving - fair enough. Usually I set the nav, make and answer calls, and control music...
You really don't like the clickwheel and never need to do complex controls on the infotainment screen while driving - fair enough.
Usually I set the nav, make and answer calls, and control music via voice and steering wheel buttons.
The only thing I regularly use the clickwheel for mid-drive is nav stuff.
Mainly selecting a different route while commuting. This takes several spins and clicks, but I can get to the list of routes and move between the without looking at the screen. Then I have to take my eyeballs off the road to check out each route. Also sometimes I toggle the "avoid highways" option on or off - this also doesn't require eyeballs off the road to change.
The current gen Mazda 3 is certainly far from perfect - small windows, large A pillars, hollow-sounding doors, wipers that don't go fast enough. But I love the handling, speed on the turbo model, styling, materials, and of course the clickwheel!
That's fair, I can see how you could memorize getting to the alternate routes through muscle memory. Personally I usually adjust on the fly as I see that grey line with a longer route time. I keep...
That's fair, I can see how you could memorize getting to the alternate routes through muscle memory. Personally I usually adjust on the fly as I see that grey line with a longer route time. I keep highways on and tolls off, so that's not something I ever change mid-drive — the few times I do switch to tolls I know that going in.
I paid more attention to my interaction today, and it's literally just touching the centre of the screen — which doesn't require any eyeballs — and then dragging forward for a quick glance. It's such a straightforward interface that I can't imagine how it could be safer to fiddle with a knob to drag a map without looking before glancing. I suppose you could get used to it of course, but the drag on the Android Auto screen naturally matches what I'm used to on my phone, so there's zero learning curve and I can get to where I expect the screen to be without having to glance over.
Looks like folks have since figured out how to pick up those signals with microcontrollers, so if you have one laying around you can repurpose it to control anything you'd like:...
Looks like folks have since figured out how to pick up those signals with microcontrollers, so if you have one laying around you can repurpose it to control anything you'd like: https://youtu.be/JrhKW20DIvA
That video had promise, but unfortunately has some of the worst background music I've ever heard, and loud enough that you can barely follow what he is saying. I had to stop watching early on even...
That video had promise, but unfortunately has some of the worst background music I've ever heard, and loud enough that you can barely follow what he is saying. I had to stop watching early on even though I was (and still am) interested in the subject.
A battery free remote could likely be acheived these days with piezoelectric buttons. If they had enough travel and "clickyness". What great engineers though at Zenith. Sometimes the simplist...
A battery free remote could likely be acheived these days with piezoelectric buttons. If they had enough travel and "clickyness".
What great engineers though at Zenith. Sometimes the simplist solution is the better working solution.
Modern remotes sip so little power that the batteries in them last for years before needing replacement. I’ve actually had one where the buttons failed before the batteries that came with it!
Modern remotes sip so little power that the batteries in them last for years before needing replacement. I’ve actually had one where the buttons failed before the batteries that came with it!
My goodness, I've been using the term "clicker" for so long -- almost as an afterthought -- and never realized that it could have come from a specific device.
My goodness, I've been using the term "clicker" for so long -- almost as an afterthought -- and never realized that it could have come from a specific device.
Fantastic spotlight on a forgotten piece of history! Thanks for sharing! I'd love to get one and use it on my TV. I hate the overcomplicated shitty remotes you get with TVs these days.
Fantastic spotlight on a forgotten piece of history!
Thanks for sharing! I'd love to get one and use it on my TV. I hate the overcomplicated shitty remotes you get with TVs these days.
I think the loss of tactile feedback made things harder. With T9 you could text while driving and never take your eyes off the road. Physical buttons on the car, same. Though voice to text is now...
I think the loss of tactile feedback made things harder. With T9 you could text while driving and never take your eyes off the road. Physical buttons on the car, same. Though voice to text is now sufficiently advanced that the mobile will usually correctly get what you say, you still have look to find icons.
I really love old communication technology because of the constraints (in this case, self imposed) of their respective eras. Using ultrasonic waves to communicate information was a stroke of genius, and although I would be worried about maybe some degrees of interference, it doesn't seem to work too poorly from the microcontroller videos.
This is a relatively simple, low cost (for the mechanism itself, the outer casing seems to be fabulously crafted with high quality materials), easy to repair device. I would like to see a return of this "less complication is better" design philosophy in modern devices.
Cars.
If I had my druthers, no touchscreen anything, and the more mechanical the better in anything involving "optional." I know we can't get away completely from electronics, but I want absolutely NOTHING that can access it remotely.
Push button radio, crank windows, latch seat movement. KEY ENTRY ONLY.
I want my car to be mine.
Of course you know that basically every new car will fail most of the requirements you've laid out. But, one notable standout is recent Mazdas, which replace the touchscreen with their clickwheel-style infotainment control. So many automotive journalists have maligned this system, but IMO it's the best middle ground between the control flexibility of an LCD and the tactility and muscle-memory-ability of mechanical controls. You don't have to reach toward the screen to use it, as the clickwheel falls in a natural spot where your hand rests on the center console, and you often don't even have to look at the display to make a selection. Putting touchscreens in cars is a lazy solution that makes cars less safe to operate, and I don't think Mazda's solution's naysayers ever really gave the clickwheel a chance.
Part of the issue, I think, is there's this detrimental feedback loop in all "review journalism." The reviewers see so many products that they develop these sensibilities that diverge from what actual consumers want. They've already drank the touchscreen Kool-aid, so when confronted with an alternate solution that has its own quirks and learning curves, they just clock out and say it sucks, because in their minds they're trying to give their honest opinion, but they're unable to see that their perspective is skewed from that of their readers. So then some consumers are tainted by these reviews, and in the next generation, the manufacturers react to the reviews and the consumer feedback the reviews have elicited and react, with most or all of them falling into lockstep. This is how you get lots of people wanting to buy products that manufacturers won't make, like small pickup trucks, manual-everything non-connected cars, bottom-price-bracket EVs (and ICE cars for that matter), flagship-quality phones but with small screens, non-smart TVs, etc. There's also of course the money aspect here - manufacturers can steamroll minority consumer wishes because the less-desirable product can command a higher price tag or make more money in residuals. But I think it's the aforementioned feedback loop that keeps the "rational" consumer segment small enough that manufacturers don't have to listen to them.
As someone who was interested in buying a Mazda, I strongly disagree.
I did not read the reviews beforehand. I don't drive enough different vehicles to develop review sensibilities different from what a consumer wants.
Why on earth would I want to learn a whole new clickwheel-based interface,while driving? Yes, tactile is almost always better. But I'm no longer pushing buttons to flip radio stations every song or commercial break. And most actions are accomplished through voice commands or steering wheel buttons now anyway, which makes learning a completely new, essentially tab-based interface an awful, pointless, and even more dangerous experience.
By far my most common touchscreen action while driving is to drag a navigation map to see something coming up ahead. I intuitively tap and drag the screen without thinking about it because I already know how to manipulate it. Fiddling with a knob, where I have to actually watch the screen as the right element is selected only to use a strange new interface is a much worse UX.
Who says you have to? Practice in the driveway or the car lot. It won't take that long to understand the important nuances. At that point, it will always be safer than a touchscreen, which will never give you tactile feedback and will require you to take your eyes off the road during every interaction forever.
You need to take your eyes off the road in order to see your screen anyway.
Wasting time becoming proficient in one's driveway only helps with the interactions you do frequently enough to memorize. Unless this knob system also requires weekly driveway practice sessions?
so, if we boil all this down, you're saying that a touchscreen interface is just as safe on the road as a tactile interface for info display. is that what you're saying?
I'm saying that the Mazda knob is dreadful, and if it requires spending time in one's driveway in order to safely use it it's a terrible alternative to a touchscreen everyone already understands combined with steering wheel and voice controls with the slightest modicum of common sense. And if you lack that common sense there is zero chance you're going to master a tab knob, making your driving even more dangerous.
then we disagree. with a touchscreen you cant even tell if your effort has been effective without looking away from the road. any other tactile interface will be better by default, once you learn the order of menu options.
Strongly disagree.
My onscreen actions are verified by eyesight, in cases like dragging the navigation map ahead. This follows a known, easily predictable interface that arrives where I expect it to without taking my eyes off the road.
In other cases, like selecting podcast episodes, it's a matter of browsing through favourite podcasts and selecting recent episodes. There is no amount of muscle memory that can substitute for having to look and decide what you want to hear next, and if you're looking anyway you may as well choose the more known, efficient interface. I can put my hand back on the wheel just as quickly from the touchscreen as you can from the centre console.
the point isnt about taking hands off the wheel (there is no dashboard interface that requires you to take both hands off the wheel). the point is about taking eyes off the road. i would think that would be pretty clear...
And taking one's eyes off the road is necessary in all cases where it's not a matter of rote repetition.
Everyone will have their own opinions about things of course. That said, I've driven a 2021 Mazda 3 for two years now, and here are my more specific thoughts.
To use a touchscreen you always have to look at the screen to use it, because there is nothing physical to indicate when you've selected the element you want. With the clickwheel, you'll develop muscle memory for how many clicks away certain things are.
Usually I'm using Android Auto, and while that interface isn't primarily designed for the clickwheel it works well. I don't have the built-in non-Android Auto navigation, so I can't speak to that.
Also, I don't think the clickwheel learning curve is as steep as you're making it out to be. Rather than tap the thing you want, you spin the wheel to cycle through the things and then click once you reach the one you want. It's slightly less intuitive than "touch the thing", but safer once you grasp how it works. But maybe my "shallow learning curve" perspective here is colored because I've gotten over said curve. Everything's easy once you've mastered it, etc.
I also have a 2003 Tacoma for truck stuff that I installed a normal aftermarket touchscreen Android Auto head unit in, and I much prefer the Mazda's infotainment system.
Never tried an aftermarket unit, but I now use built-in Android auto as well. Almost all of my interactions are through the voice command and seek buttons on the steering wheel.
I don't think I touch the screen often enough to develop a muscle memory for anything. What are you selecting?
I tap when I need to select a podcast episode. But (a) that's usually at the beginning of my trip and (b) there's no muscle memory because every time is different. I have to look at the screen to see what I'm currently selecting either way.
I also tap when in navigation and I want to see a bit further ahead. It's a tap and drag in the direction I want to see — how is that even possible with the click wheel? I'd imagine it just zooms, unless they've added directional buttons you have to select and then rotate on?
All of these interactions are driver initiated. I can do them at a stop light or any other low event moment. I'm a big fan of pretty much everything tactile, but that knob was an instant turn off for me. That and the really small windows!
You really don't like the clickwheel and never need to do complex controls on the infotainment screen while driving - fair enough.
Usually I set the nav, make and answer calls, and control music via voice and steering wheel buttons.
The only thing I regularly use the clickwheel for mid-drive is nav stuff.
Mainly selecting a different route while commuting. This takes several spins and clicks, but I can get to the list of routes and move between the without looking at the screen. Then I have to take my eyeballs off the road to check out each route. Also sometimes I toggle the "avoid highways" option on or off - this also doesn't require eyeballs off the road to change.
The current gen Mazda 3 is certainly far from perfect - small windows, large A pillars, hollow-sounding doors, wipers that don't go fast enough. But I love the handling, speed on the turbo model, styling, materials, and of course the clickwheel!
That's fair, I can see how you could memorize getting to the alternate routes through muscle memory. Personally I usually adjust on the fly as I see that grey line with a longer route time. I keep highways on and tolls off, so that's not something I ever change mid-drive — the few times I do switch to tolls I know that going in.
I paid more attention to my interaction today, and it's literally just touching the centre of the screen — which doesn't require any eyeballs — and then dragging forward for a quick glance. It's such a straightforward interface that I can't imagine how it could be safer to fiddle with a knob to drag a map without looking before glancing. I suppose you could get used to it of course, but the drag on the Android Auto screen naturally matches what I'm used to on my phone, so there's zero learning curve and I can get to where I expect the screen to be without having to glance over.
Looks like folks have since figured out how to pick up those signals with microcontrollers, so if you have one laying around you can repurpose it to control anything you'd like: https://youtu.be/JrhKW20DIvA
That video had promise, but unfortunately has some of the worst background music I've ever heard, and loud enough that you can barely follow what he is saying. I had to stop watching early on even though I was (and still am) interested in the subject.
It also has captions, if you wanted to give it a go on mute.
What a fantastic video. Thank you!
A battery free remote could likely be acheived these days with piezoelectric buttons. If they had enough travel and "clickyness".
What great engineers though at Zenith. Sometimes the simplist solution is the better working solution.
Modern remotes sip so little power that the batteries in them last for years before needing replacement. I’ve actually had one where the buttons failed before the batteries that came with it!
Infrared, maybe. My Roku RF/WiFi remotes eat enough batteries that I'm investing in rechargeables at this point.
Yeah the battery life is so bad I just bought another 30 pack from Costco to supplement.
My goodness, I've been using the term "clicker" for so long -- almost as an afterthought -- and never realized that it could have come from a specific device.
Fantastic spotlight on a forgotten piece of history!
Thanks for sharing! I'd love to get one and use it on my TV. I hate the overcomplicated shitty remotes you get with TVs these days.
I think the loss of tactile feedback made things harder. With T9 you could text while driving and never take your eyes off the road. Physical buttons on the car, same. Though voice to text is now sufficiently advanced that the mobile will usually correctly get what you say, you still have look to find icons.
This is the most egregious exaggeration I've heard in a very long time.