35 votes

How American evangelicals use digital surveillance to target the unconverted

21 comments

  1. [14]
    gowestyoungman
    (edited )
    Link
    This is a seriously over the top fear mongering and dare I say 'hate inducing' article. The most polite description I can think of is "highly imaginative." The author tries to portray prayer walks...

    This is a seriously over the top fear mongering and dare I say 'hate inducing' article. The most polite description I can think of is "highly imaginative."

    The author tries to portray prayer walks as if its meant to harass and intimidate residents. Really? In the VERY rare occasion when it happens its a person or persons walking silently and praying. Unless you know what they are doing, you would think its a group quietly walking through a neighborhood - hardly intimidating unless you specialize in paranoia.

    And good luck finding these walks happening with any kind of size or regularity; Christian evangelicals on the whole, believe they SHOULD be bringing others into the faith but they are just as nervous to be out in public as anyone else who has tried to do the equivalent of spiritual multi level marketing. Its a rare event and most people dont even want to try it especially when they realize it might be unpopular. You might find a Mormon or a Jehovah's Witness on your doorstep because their religion dictates their proselytizing but not so with a typical evangelical church member.

    The 'warfare' being spoken of is against perceived spiritual forces NOT the people in the neighborhood. But that doesnt stop the author from coming up with this gem:

    It’s not pleasant, but neither is it hard to imagine the aftermath of an incident of political violence, where an ethno-religious group in the United States is subject to a pogrom based on online lists.

    So the author has moved from a database of publicly available information to imagining political violence against ethno-religious groups?! That's just baseless conjecture and outright fearmongering. These are people who want to convert others to their faith, not beat them to death. Prayer walks, acts of service, invitations to church events, NOT violence. The author is putting their own nefarious imaginings to work in overtime.

    We had an incident recently in a nearby city where a pastor was arrested (if you can believe it) for praying, silently, while standing against a wall in city hall by himself because he did not have a "permit" for a "religious event". The insanity of it. Fortunately the rule of law still applies and he was released and all charges were dropped but that arrest was directly due to the attitude of the very anti-religion mayor who believes that no one with any religious beliefs has the right to exercise those in public. You can have a wildcat rally with 10,000 people for your favorite cause du jour on the city hall steps, march down main street yelling slogans that sound like intimidation at best, death threats at worst but God help you if you pray silently, alone, in city hall! Can't get much more blatantly prejudicial than that.

    To pretend that a database of people in your neighborhood is more nefarious than Google knowing every single thing about you, everything you search everything you buy, everywhere you go, all the porn you watch, which party you support, and Apple using your watch to track when you eat, sleep, exercise and have sex is just ridiculous. The people who want to grift you are not the evangelicals - they're the last ones to your data party. But hey, lets make it sound like evangelicals are about to beat down your door and threaten you because they finally figured out how to use a database in 2024. Yeah. They're the 'dangerous ones'.

    17 votes
    1. [5]
      patience_limited
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      The fear engendered by these apps and databases isn't about acts of worship in shared public spaces. It's about the microtargeting of propaganda and intimidation. I don't think you grasp what it's...
      • Exemplary

      The fear engendered by these apps and databases isn't about acts of worship in shared public spaces. It's about the microtargeting of propaganda and intimidation.

      I don't think you grasp what it's like to be a member of a religious minority undergoing love-bombing from even the nicest members of the various Christian sects. I grew up in the only Jewish family in a very Christian rural town. Not a week went by without a half-dozen no doubt well-intentioned, but overly insistent people showing up to share the Good Word.

      Despite "no soliciting" signs, polite refusals, letters to their pastors, letters to the editor of the local paper, we'd get interrupted at dinner, breakfast, while working in the yard, walking back from the school bus stop... It's bloody creepy to have a car full of adults following you to talk about Jesus after you'd just been called a Christ-killer and pounded on by a pack of the school bullies. In the end, my folks got a very large dog, and kept a shotgun prominently displayed by the front door.

      That worked well enough for keeping away the one church that had persisted in sending its congregants after us. I shudder to think what life would have been like if multiple churches, including those from out of town, could easily find us and decide we were their target. You'd effectively be talking about forced conversion or relocation. [I did, in fact, get stalked by one of the children of these people, who found me on LinkedIn forty years later and remembered that I was a heathen in need of conversion.]

      And I just had a dinner conversation last night with a 70-something retired Army nurse, who is one of the toughest people you'll ever meet. She's also a very nice Christian lady who nevertheless had a problem with Jehovah's Witnesses harassing her. Imagine what it's like to live alone on a remote farm, and have to deal with a gang of strangers who believe they have a religious mission to show up uninvited, bully you by numbers, and steal as much of your time as possible. Well, tough Army nurse has a pack of large dogs (which are a great alarm system, but add to the annoyance when even the friendliest strangers come unannounced), a substantial collection of deer antlers mounted around her porch (all her own hunting), and the proverbial gun by the door. After making multiple polite requests that they remove her homestead from their visitation list, she's taken to letting the dogs out and showing up at the door armed.

      It's more than legitimate to complain about the data harvesting by Google, Apple, et al., but the point is that no one should have access to sensitive PII like age, ethnicity, religion, gender, sexuality, income, etc. without clear, revokable permission. I think we can all agree that doorstepping, phone calls, junk mail, online ads, and spam via this kind of targeting for solicitations of any kind, however noble the purpose, should be illegal.

      24 votes
      1. [4]
        gowestyoungman
        Link Parent
        The group you mentioned harassing the nurse are Jehovah Witnesses. They are not evangelicals, they are a distinct sect and evangelicals believe them to be a cult and therefore are not the people...

        The group you mentioned harassing the nurse are Jehovah Witnesses. They are not evangelicals, they are a distinct sect and evangelicals believe them to be a cult and therefore are not the people this article is about. My experience is that they keep good records of all the houses they visit (because thats part of their requirement to prove they've been out proselytizing) and if you tell them you are definitely not interested in their visits, they mark it down and don't bother to knock again.

        I think we can all agree that doorstepping, phone calls, junk mail, online ads, and spam via this kind of targeting for solicitations of any kind, however noble the purpose, should be illegal.

        I agree, but Im going to boldly claim that the amount of doorstepping, phone calls, junk mail, online ads, and spam you receive is overwhelming NOT from evangelical groups. In 25 years living a major city I can recall 1 piece of junk mail every couple of years inviting me to a religious service of some kind and they were mass mailouts that went to everyone. I do not recall a single door knock from anyone but the JW's and Mormons. There were dozens of other solicitations a week for every other marketing under the sun.

        1 vote
        1. [3]
          patience_limited
          Link Parent
          I understand the desire to believe your evangelical denomination wouldn't participate in these activities, and that you don't want to be on the receiving end of a collective condemnation. My...

          I understand the desire to believe your evangelical denomination wouldn't participate in these activities, and that you don't want to be on the receiving end of a collective condemnation.

          My apologies for lacking a nuanced view of each Christian sect's propensity for abusive behavior, but they all looked alike when I was getting my ass kicked. I hope you'll understand my personal trepidations about any religious movement collecting demographic data for purposes of outreach, however benignly intended, to unwilling or vulnerable recipients.

          I have no reason to doubt my dinner acquaintance's story about the Jehovah's Witnesses' repeat visits. She's not the first person who's mentioned their persistence and that the local group "loses" records of refusals.

          As to doorstepping, leaflets stuffed in mailboxes and door handles, and spam campaigns, I've absolutely received them from evangelical denominations, wherever I've lived. I'll acknowledge that was probably broadcast effort, not necessarily individually targeted, and may have been contributed to by converted relatives.

          But returning to the general case instead of the personal, we know that the U.S. Government and data brokers have used data exhaust from prayer apps to track devout Muslims. As a hypothetical, suppose that the "Bless Every Home" app could be used to track proselytizing evangelicals. Would you still think that the original article was unduly alarmist?

          6 votes
          1. [2]
            gowestyoungman
            Link Parent
            Just to clarify, I no longer belong to an evangelical denomination or any denomination and a great part of that is indeed because I no longer believe in evangelism. I think if people who are in a...

            I understand the desire to believe your evangelical denomination wouldn't participate in these activities, and that you don't want to be on the receiving end of a collective condemnation.

            Just to clarify, I no longer belong to an evangelical denomination or any denomination and a great part of that is indeed because I no longer believe in evangelism. I think if people who are in a friendship want to share their views on their faith with each other, that's fine because its based on mutual respect and understanding - but the idea of cold calling and door knocking to 'spread the Gospel' is something I find quite distasteful, although young me would be quite aghast at how much I've changed. Nevertheless I readily defend those who still believe devoutly because, unlike your gracious comments, I find a great deal of online criticism of any faith is derisive and hateful.

            I do understand your trepidations. Putting myself in your shoes I can definitely see how uncomfortable I would have felt seeing people coming to my home to share/push their beliefs. As a kid I definitely got some bullying for being a church going 'goody two shoes'. Probably the closest adult experience I can relate was doing a tour of the Salt Lake Temple. We descended the stairs into a theatre to watch a short movie about the Mormons making their trek to Utah but realizing how long it would take, we changed our minds and turned around to exit. I distinctly remember a member of the church standing at the top of the stairs and shaking his head "no" as he closed the exit doors. He was not about to let us leave without watching this "educational" movie. We had no choice without making a scene so we (quite uncomfortably) stayed til the end. I dont think there were ill intentions but we definitely felt pressured.

            As a hypothetical, suppose that the "Bless Every Home" app could be used to track proselytizing evangelicals. Would you still think that the original article was unduly alarmist?

            I would be uncomfortable with that, but not surprised. If it was another group trying to convert me to their faith Id want to opt off that list.

            My strongest objection to the article however was that the author more than implied that the app was eventually going to lead to confrontation and violence. After researching a bit more about her, I suspect the author has been burned by a church/religious person in the past which has resulted in a very strong bias - she wrote a book called "Beyond Belief: How Pentecostal Christianity Is Taking Over the World" (Hurst, 2022) which "exposes the Pentecostal agenda: not just saving souls but also transforming societies and controlling politics. These modern prophets, embedded in our institutions, have the cash and the influence to wage their holy war." Hmm... Ive met a lot of Pentecostals in my life, even attended a Pentecostal church for a time, and I think ALL of them would laugh out loud if I asked if they were taking over the world.

            2 votes
            1. patience_limited
              Link Parent
              Thank you for your gracious response. I can only imagine how difficult it must have been to separate yourself from the faith that embraced you. My spouse went through that process with...

              Thank you for your gracious response. I can only imagine how difficult it must have been to separate yourself from the faith that embraced you. My spouse went through that process with Catholicism. It's just as painful for him to hear blanket denunciations of the Church. Despite some personal harm from it, he's still got relatives and friends who remain believers, including members of the priesthood.

              I can easily acknowledge the dangers of judging people solely by their faith or lack thereof. At base, we're all human, capable of good and evil regardless of creed or ideology. Face to face, I've been the recipient of far more kindness from people of faith than I have of harm.

              Having said that, I'll share that I fear organizations of faith. Just as the Pentecostals you've met would scoff at the grandiose accusations in Beyond Belief, just as the Jewish congregations of my acquaintance would laugh themselves sick at the idea we have any significant influence on world affairs or economies, it's easier to see the religious organizations' hierarchs having their own plans and trying to steer their flocks. I don't begrudge the comfort and community people take from their congregation of worship, but people will do evil in conformity with a group that they'd never countenance as individuals.

              1 vote
    2. [8]
      GenuinelyCrooked
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      Are there any articles I could read about that pastor being arrested?

      Are there any articles I could read about that pastor being arrested?

      1 vote
      1. [7]
        gowestyoungman
        Link Parent
        This article says he was 'cited' and trespassed which would indicate no arrest: https://www.thedemocracyfund.ca/anti-prayer_bylaw_charges_dismissed_against_pastor_derek_reimer However this article...

        This article says he was 'cited' and trespassed which would indicate no arrest:
        https://www.thedemocracyfund.ca/anti-prayer_bylaw_charges_dismissed_against_pastor_derek_reimer

        However this article indicates he is still at the Remand Center til March 22, so now Im not sure which it is:
        https://www2.cbn.com/news/world/calgary-pastor-arrested-second-time-after-protesting-drag-show-public-library

        1 vote
        1. [6]
          GenuinelyCrooked
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          Edited after letting my brain wake up a bit and thinking about this some more. It seems pretty clear from the second article that he's not at the remand center for the religious event citation,...

          Edited after letting my brain wake up a bit and thinking about this some more.

          It seems pretty clear from the second article that he's not at the remand center for the religious event citation, but for the bail violation after the mischief and disturbance violation for harassing folks trying to hold a drag queen story hour.

          He also wasn't praying silently by himself somewhere out just anywhere in public. He had brought a small group of people into a municipal building and was leading them in silent prayer.

          Reimer and a small group of people were praying inside the building when police officers approached them. The pastor was the only one issued a trespass notice out of the group of five people. He was told by a Calgary City Hall security officer that he was being cited for "holding a prayer event inside the municipal complex interior without a permit on March 7. And today as well you're holding a religious event inside the municipal building interior without a permit."

          Going on only that information, it seems like they weren't being disruptive, but I can see how gathering a group of people together to pray could be considered a religious event. It's not like they all just happened to be there separately and when they ran into each other, they decided to have a little prayer. They were there to pray in protest of an ordinance. I don't really like this law, I think as long as they aren't being disruptive people should be able to pray whenever and wherever they like, and it seems like the application here is stretched a bit thin, but it's not nearly as ridiculous as you made it sound. Your italicized claim that he was by himself actually runs counter to the facts in the article.

          It seems to me like this gentleman had a pattern of harassment and disruption and some cops that were aware of that got annoyed and overzealously applied a law that doesn't really fit. That's wrong and they should not have done that, but your example works against your greater point. His issue wasn't that he's a peaceful unobtrusive guy who just wanted to quietly pray in public. His issue is that he's been repeatedly disrupting events for people that do not want him there. He has been inserting himself into other people's lives and causing problems, motivated by his religion, which is exactly what the opponents of this app fear. If I were one of the story queens, I certainly wouldn't want him to have my home address.

          Tangentially, these articles don't paint a picture of an "anti-religion" mayor, they paint a picture of one that is protecting their LGBTQ citizens, which is the sort of mayor I'd appreciate having. It sounds like if there's any reason for the religious interests and LGBTQ safety to be at odds, it's due to the actions of the religious community, not the LGBTQ community.

          Can I ask, if you don't think they want this information so they can door-knock and unsolicitedly proselytize and therefore disrupt the lives of people who do not follow their religion, what do you think they want to use it for?

          2 votes
          1. [5]
            DarthRedLeader
            Link Parent
            For the record, the company that created the app specifically calls out canvassing neighborhoods on their website, so their intention to use this data for that purpose is fairly explicit....

            For the record, the company that created the app specifically calls out canvassing neighborhoods on their website, so their intention to use this data for that purpose is fairly explicit.

            https://mappingcenter.squarespace.com/

            2 votes
            1. [4]
              GenuinelyCrooked
              Link Parent
              I can't actually imagine it being used for anything else, but the user I replied to seems to be able to, and I'd like to understand their point of view. It's always possible that there's something...

              I can't actually imagine it being used for anything else, but the user I replied to seems to be able to, and I'd like to understand their point of view. It's always possible that there's something I'm missing.

              1 vote
              1. [3]
                gowestyoungman
                (edited )
                Link Parent
                According to the website there are mentions of mailouts, prayer walks, and neighbor invitations. But if you read my latest post you can see that Im not an advocate of evangelism, my objection was...

                According to the website there are mentions of mailouts, prayer walks, and neighbor invitations.

                But if you read my latest post you can see that Im not an advocate of evangelism, my objection was the author's conjecture that this software was going to be used as an assault tool leading to violence. If my neighbor wants to invite me to his synagogue, mosque, temple or church Id probably go just out of curiosity, but if one is not spiritually curious, then a polite 'Thanks, we're not interested' would do the trick. Unlike cults, evangelicals do not have a requirement to 'rack up points' by door knocking and cold calls and almost all invitations are to community events - barbeques, car shows(!), concerts, art classes, dramas, etc. I know a pastor who invited anyone to a pub to join him for drinks (on him) and conversation and even hosted a debate with the local Humanist Club there. One group I still support takes a converted school bus out on the cold streets of a big city to hand out hot food and clothing in winter. Another works solely with single mothers who are coming off the street and are raising their babies with very little other support.

                Ive actually been part of a brand new church at one point and the most we ever did was a mass mailout. Everyone new who came was because of a personal friendship and invitation. And not surprisingly, most of those people were already people who had attended some kind of church in the past and did not like it, but decided to give it another shot at a much less formal and friendly kind of gathering (it was in a school gym and the pastor was a community advocate).

                1. [2]
                  GenuinelyCrooked
                  Link Parent
                  Which is unsolicited proselytism. The absolute best case scenario for this app is that it is extremely annoying. I'm not unfamiliar with evangelical churches. I grew up in one. If my grandmother...

                  there are mentions of mailouts, prayer walks, and neighbor invitations.

                  Which is unsolicited proselytism. The absolute best case scenario for this app is that it is extremely annoying.

                  I'm not unfamiliar with evangelical churches. I grew up in one. If my grandmother had access to this sort of technology, she would absolutely have used it to harass people. While I mostly doubt that any legitimate churches will use it for any organized violence, encouraging people to repeatedly interact with other people against their will on a topic that is incredibly sensitive is bound to lead to at least a few minor scuffles. Evangelicals absolutely do have a requirement to "spread the good word", and this app does have a system for tracking people to whom "the good word" has been spread. It's not quite as stringent within evangelical Christianity as it is within the Mormon and JW churches, but they're not call "Evangelicals" for nothing.

                  Your experience with Evangelicals has been friendly and cordial, and that's great. Those Evangelicals that invited you to the school gym didn't have an app to gamify proselytizing and to display their acts of proselytism to others. The eyes of other Christians are a powerful motivator for otherwise abnormal behavior.

                  The best case scenario is that this app adds religious spam to the mountain of spam we already receive. I think that's probably also the most likely scenario. I'm glad I don't live in the US anymore to find out.

                  I'd like you to also address your misrepresentation of the story about the pastor being arrested, if you don't mind.

                  1. gowestyoungman
                    Link Parent
                    Well, about 45 years in the church and Ive never seen a 'scuffle' of any kind but, like the author, I gather you've had some bad experiences, and your comment is based on a conjecture of what...

                    repeatedly interact with other people against their will on a topic that is incredibly sensitive is bound to lead to at least a few minor scuffles.

                    Well, about 45 years in the church and Ive never seen a 'scuffle' of any kind but, like the author, I gather you've had some bad experiences, and your comment is based on a conjecture of what "could" happen. Well, if it actually lead to a "scuffle" then that would be an evangelical who didnt read their Bible very well as the only time Jesus expressed utter disdain it was for hypocritical religious leaders, the Pharisees. I guess we all have our biases but yes, I would concur that the most likely thing that would happen is that churches using this app would add to the mass of mail that you already receive. And can just as easily go in the bin if its as valuable as a Walmart flyer too.

  2. [2]
    Bet
    Link
    This tech is undoubtedly about to be, or currently already being, used by someone to grift. Aside from all of the other myriad concerns this data-harvesting and -listing raises, one of the first...

    This tech is undoubtedly about to be, or currently already being, used by someone to grift. Aside from all of the other myriad concerns this data-harvesting and -listing raises, one of the first issues brought to mind is that this information is perfect for any entrepreneurial-minded lowlife posing as a ‘prophet’ to use for pseudo cold-reading door-to-door to catch the vulnerable and unawares off their guard at just the right time to take advantage of them.

    This is some very obvious build-a-cult nonsense. It’s also a fantastically powerful tool of control once one’s cult is established. An all-seeing, ever-present eye.

    How great.

    14 votes
    1. killertofu
      Link Parent
      I mean, arguably that's a secondary scam on top of the primary scam that is recruiting into evangelical Christianity and all the predation that entails. I just hope that they end up getting sued...

      I mean, arguably that's a secondary scam on top of the primary scam that is recruiting into evangelical Christianity and all the predation that entails.

      I just hope that they end up getting sued out of existence for careless collection and treatment of personal information. Not that I have tremendous hope in the US legal system in that area. But hey, maybe they'll make a good target for spam vandalism.

      11 votes
  3. boxer_dogs_dance
    Link
    There was always a close tie between this form of Christianity and marketing and sales. They are using the newest tools and I hate it but they haven't changed

    There was always a close tie between this form of Christianity and marketing and sales. They are using the newest tools and I hate it but they haven't changed

    7 votes
  4. Ecrapsnud
    Link

    The future of proselytizing—and surveillance—has arrived. An app called Bless Every Home, which has been backed by some of the biggest names in evangelical circles, is mapping the personal information of immigrants and non-Christians in a bid to conduct door-to-door religious conversions and “prayerwalking” rituals through their neighborhoods.

    6 votes
  5. chocobean
    Link
    Gross. Totally totally gross. If anyone ever comes to your door to try to convert you and won't take polite no for an answer, ask them for their coat and ask to strike them on their cheek and ask...

    Gross. Totally totally gross.

    If anyone ever comes to your door to try to convert you and won't take polite no for an answer, ask them for their coat and ask to strike them on their cheek and ask them to fetch you something from many miles away.

    America taking yet another step closer towards Gilead. I hope they get sued into oblivion.

    9 votes
  6. babypuncher
    Link
    If there is a Hell, I'm pretty sure these people are headed straight there.

    If there is a Hell, I'm pretty sure these people are headed straight there.

    2 votes