26 votes

Prismo, a federated AP-based reddit/HN alternative, opened sign-ups!

Topic deleted by author

46 comments

  1. [34]
    balooga Link
    Can anyone elaborate on the differences between the decentralization of this, and the decentralization of notabug.io? (I'm aware that g0ldfish is banned from Tildes but I still think that tech is...

    Can anyone elaborate on the differences between the decentralization of this, and the decentralization of notabug.io? (I'm aware that g0ldfish is banned from Tildes but I still think that tech is interesting.)

    10 votes
    1. [11]
      clerical_terrors Link Parent
      Notabug is not federated through ActivityPub but through it's own systems IIRC. Also Notabug uses Proof-of-Work in order to validate votes (for some reason) but as a result does not require...

      Notabug is not federated through ActivityPub but through it's own systems IIRC. Also Notabug uses Proof-of-Work in order to validate votes (for some reason) but as a result does not require accounts to use the site.

      10 votes
      1. [10]
        teaearlgraycold Link Parent
        The intention is to prevent upvote farming.

        Notabug uses Proof-of-Work in order to validate votes (for some reason)

        The intention is to prevent upvote farming.

        3 votes
        1. [9]
          Diff Link Parent
          I don't think that works when people can just keep slamming the buttons for as long as they have patience. Saw some white supremacy crap on there and personally smashed the downvote button til it...

          I don't think that works when people can just keep slamming the buttons for as long as they have patience. Saw some white supremacy crap on there and personally smashed the downvote button til it hit -14 and fell off the front page. Which kinda struck me as funny because instead of censoring by any sort of authority, now any single person or small group with 2 minutes can essentially take down anything they want.

          8 votes
          1. [8]
            Amarok Link Parent
            Yep. I think go1dfish is banking on the idea that with enough users, the large number of them all voting at once will be enough to counteract a small number of them voting with an agenda. He might...

            Yep. I think go1dfish is banking on the idea that with enough users, the large number of them all voting at once will be enough to counteract a small number of them voting with an agenda. He might be right, too, but only time and much higher user activity will tell the tale.

            Seems the flaw in his idea to me isn't the abuse of downvoting to censor, if that plays out right. It seems like coordinated upvoting of content is a much bigger risk, especially if that content is high-effort astroturfing which feels organic. A couple people can bump something and since it doesn't 'look' or 'sound' bad with a cursory glance, the herd will pile on.

            4 votes
            1. [5]
              SunSpotter Link Parent
              Maybe I'm missing something because this just sounds...bad. I definitely feel that being able to mash the downvote button is going to end up creating echo chambers and polarize the site in the...

              Maybe I'm missing something because this just sounds...bad.

              I definitely feel that being able to mash the downvote button is going to end up creating echo chambers and polarize the site in the same way that reddit has been. Large numbers of users are just as likely to even things out, as they are to make things even more lopsided.

              I could also potentially see it turning away away people who get arbitrarily smited. Imagine how you would feel if your first or second post on the platform was downvoted into oblivion? I don't think I would go back honestly. Just seems like a bad idea all around.

              3 votes
              1. [4]
                Amarok Link Parent
                Reddit's omnipresent instant-downvote is I think a key contributor to the toxicity there. There have been some studies that while not being exactly hard science, all seem to indicate it's the...

                Reddit's omnipresent instant-downvote is I think a key contributor to the toxicity there. There have been some studies that while not being exactly hard science, all seem to indicate it's the beginning of a negative feedback loop. If anyone's interested I can dig them up and share them, probably as a new submission.

                You get downvoted, you're more likely to downvote in response. Also there's the ever-present temptation to post something and then downvote everything else in the new queue posted around when you did just to give your submission a competitive edge, and networks of vote-manipulating bots all doing this for that very reason.

                Notabug didn't design those problems out. Tildes already has. I was simply trying to explain what I think is going on in goldfish's head having had a couple conversations with him about this stuff. He's set himself up to learn some hard lessons about managing internet communities.

                2 votes
                1. [2]
                  Crespyl Link Parent
                  While I tend to agree more with the "Tildean" approach to voting and share concerns about the voting model at NAB, I think it's worth recalling that NAB is explicitly designed to not really care...

                  While I tend to agree more with the "Tildean" approach to voting and share concerns about the voting model at NAB, I think it's worth recalling that NAB is explicitly designed to not really care about designing those problems out.

                  The upvote/downvote model (and more or less the entirety of the user-facing design) are mostly just inherited from Reddit as is. The goal has always been to develop a neutral-by-design federated content/messaging platform that enables peers to experiment with their own moderation and filtering models. The prototype/example peers "redbit" and "blubit" (defunct now) demonstrated how a peer could add additional forms of "votes" orthogonal to the Reddit style "up/down" votes, and in principle a peer could operate with strict moderation or only allow some subset of users to vote, or sort and filter content by whatever means.

                  The intentional and careful community building we have at Tildes is absent from NAB (and go1dfish isn't someone I'd pick to run a community site in any case), but from a technical standpoint I still find NAB incredibly interesting and I'm still pretty excited to see how the project develops in the future.

                  1 vote
                  1. Amarok Link Parent
                    I didn't look at it as a tool for experimentation. That gives it a lot more value, and also a much greater chance at producing something interesting someday.

                    I didn't look at it as a tool for experimentation. That gives it a lot more value, and also a much greater chance at producing something interesting someday.

                    1 vote
                2. SunSpotter Link Parent
                  No problems with anything you said, sorry if it sounded like that. Im just very against the idea haha. Also, my anecdotal experience with reddit definitely reflects what you've said about feedback...

                  No problems with anything you said, sorry if it sounded like that. Im just very against the idea haha.

                  Also, my anecdotal experience with reddit definitely reflects what you've said about feedback loops. I'd definitely give your post a read if you decided to make it.

            2. [2]
              Deimos Link Parent
              People have also already built browser extensions that will sit on the page and vote on the same post(s) constantly. It's really not a model that will work out in practice, it's just going to...

              People have also already built browser extensions that will sit on the page and vote on the same post(s) constantly. It's really not a model that will work out in practice, it's just going to result in an arms race that anyone new to the site doesn't know how to compete in.

              1 vote
              1. Amarok Link Parent
                Notabug is just going to become a horde of zombies voting in an eternal war. Rate-limiting the votes might help, assuming you have more users than zombies. I'm not sure notabug has enough users to...

                Notabug is just going to become a horde of zombies voting in an eternal war. Rate-limiting the votes might help, assuming you have more users than zombies. I'm not sure notabug has enough users to get off the ground with that problem sitting on their heads already.

                2 votes
    2. [20]
      Diff Link Parent
      Wait why's that? I can't really speak on notabug, I've visited a few times but couldn't really tell you how it works. But it seems like all notabug instances all seem to be the same notabug...

      (I'm aware that g0ldfish is banned from Tildes but I still think that tech is interesting.)

      Wait why's that?

      Can anyone elaborate on the differences between the decentralization of this, and the decentralization of notabug.io?

      I can't really speak on notabug, I've visited a few times but couldn't really tell you how it works. But it seems like all notabug instances all seem to be the same notabug network?

      With Prismo and other ActivityPub-federated services, my favorite analogy is email. You can submit content from any ActivityPub service and all the other ActivityPub services will be able to interact with it. So as an example, even before Prismo was open, I would be able to find Reddit-style Prismo posts through my Twitter-style Mastodon interface. I can reply to a toot in Mastodon and Prismo users will see it as another comment in their comment tree on that post. If I favorite something in my Twitter-style interface, Prismo users see an upvote.

      Basically that's the big draw to the "fediverse" that's been built up around Mastodon. Every federated instance of whatever crosstalks with (almost, some instances choose to block each other) every other federated instance of whatever.

      6 votes
      1. [19]
        apoctr Link Parent
        This is going off shoddy memory, so I'm sure some details will be missing or simplified. But at one point I believe go1dfish started discussing "biological reasons" for race...

        Wait why's that?

        This is going off shoddy memory, so I'm sure some details will be missing or simplified. But at one point I believe go1dfish started discussing "biological reasons" for race inferiority/superiority, and those comments were removed. Then he made a big dramatic meta-post about Tildes and censorship before being banned.

        15 votes
        1. [18]
          clerical_terrors (edited ) Link Parent
          To be precise, Go1dfish took issue with posts defending/promoting Race Realism being removed, considering this an overreach in moderation, and found out that Deimos had apparently been removing...

          To be precise, Go1dfish took issue with posts defending/promoting Race Realism being removed, considering this an overreach in moderation, and found out that Deimos had apparently been removing other posts as well. Being something of an absolutist he wrote that incredibly long rant and the rest is history.

          17 votes
          1. [17]
            apoctr (edited ) Link Parent
            Ah, thanks for the corrections! There you have it @Diff

            Ah, thanks for the corrections! There you have it @Diff

            1 vote
            1. [16]
              TheJorro Link Parent
              I believe it was @Diff asking. Also, something not relayed here is how insistent he was about being able to say anything he wanted, to the point of making Tildes a worse place for everyone with...
              • Exemplary x2

              I believe it was @Diff asking.

              Also, something not relayed here is how insistent he was about being able to say anything he wanted, to the point of making Tildes a worse place for everyone with his crusade. The above stories make it sound like he took the wrong approach to a certain subject but that's not quite true. There are people here who have some controversial opinions but it's mostly fine because they engage respectfully. It was the lengths goldf1sh went to to insist that free speech should be the end-all, be-all of a site, and those lengths meant making the site worse for others. It was also the last time he did it, there were many occasions of this behaviour before that final incident.

              What made that last occasion particularly memorable is that he decided to play devil's advocate by taking on a very far right position to make his point. He did not give one iota of a shit what his devil's advocacy was doing to those around when he decided to commit to (apparently) emulating a froth-mouthed right wing ideology when arguing with others. All to make a point that nobody disputed regarding free speech. Again: that nobody disputed. His behaviour was completely unprovoked, he actively chose to make everyone uncomfortable and upset for his own edification.

              And then when that completely derailed the actual discussion and caused some real snafu to the point that Deimos felt the need to shut it down, he instead doubled down on the harm he was causing others and posted an incendiary, and completely unreasonable, rant.

              Basically, goldf1sh broke the cardinal rule: don't be an asshole. He was an asshole to everyone and did not give a shit about actual discourse with other people.

              He was abusive and toxic user because this site didn't cater to his extremely unreasonable whims, and actively sought to make this a worse place while promoting his own site as some sort of anathema, without realizing that he was the problem himself. I don't know who he is or what his reputation is before Tildes but his behaviour on Tildes indicates that he's not someone who would prevent his site from becoming another Voat, and might even encourage it.

              Good riddance.

              30 votes
              1. [12]
                ThatFanficGuy Link Parent
                Is it still up? I'd like to read it.

                he instead doubled down on the harm he was causing others and posted an incendiary, and completely unreasonable, rant.

                Is it still up? I'd like to read it.

                4 votes
                1. [10]
                  Emerald_Knight Link Parent
                  No, his account and all of his comments were purged at the time of banning. If you really want to take a look at the offending thread (it's not really worth digging through), it doesn't take much...

                  No, his account and all of his comments were purged at the time of banning. If you really want to take a look at the offending thread (it's not really worth digging through), it doesn't take much digging to find it, but you'll notice that there are a lot of deleted comments in there, not all of them belonging to the user in question. Honestly, apart from his toxic behavior, the constant linking to notabug got really old, really fast. It felt more like he was using Tildes as an advertising platform and not as a member of the community, and that was really frustrating to see.

                  This event occurred during a time when this site was going through some major growing pains. Things have improved quite a bit since then :)

                  10 votes
                  1. [9]
                    ThatFanficGuy Link Parent
                    Thank you. Had it anything to do with issues of censorship and content moderation? "not a haven of free speech" is something I saw being mentioned.

                    Thank you.

                    when this site was going through some major growing pains

                    Had it anything to do with issues of censorship and content moderation? "not a haven of free speech" is something I saw being mentioned.

                    2 votes
                    1. [8]
                      Emerald_Knight Link Parent
                      Basically, yes. A big problem was that a lot of users, Go1dfish included, had this idea of what they wanted Tildes to be that stood in stark contrast with what Deimos and the larger community...

                      Basically, yes.

                      A big problem was that a lot of users, Go1dfish included, had this idea of what they wanted Tildes to be that stood in stark contrast with what Deimos and the larger community wanted Tildes to be. Specifically, Deimos himself had stated and documented, quite explicitly, that Tildes would not be a bastion for free speech, and most users agreed that this was preferred because being a bastion of free speech would turn this website into a cesspool like 4chan and voat. These users disagreed with this decision and actively complained about it on a fairly regular basis.

                      Think of the backlash over the banning of /r/FatPeopleHate over on reddit, but less explosive and more incredibly annoying and frustrating.

                      There were also users who didn't consider their words carefully when discussing politically-charged subjects, users who got incredibly heated during disagreements, users who abused the labeling system, etc. All ordinary things that even happen now, but were much worse as people still hadn't quite gotten used to the idea of civil disagreement in the age of social media and were still detoxing.

                      So, at least in my own assessment, it was a combination of fundamental differences in mindsets and beliefs, culture shock, and conditioned negative responses due to years of prior abuse on other social media platforms.

                      In short: the website was brand new and it was a clusterfuck :)

                      8 votes
                      1. [7]
                        ThatFanficGuy Link Parent
                        Well put. Describes the situation of going off-mainstream well. What happened? Did the users leave? Was there a conversation?

                        it was a combination of fundamental differences in mindsets and beliefs, culture shock, and conditioned negative responses due to years of prior abuse on other social media platforms.

                        Well put. Describes the situation of going off-mainstream well.

                        What happened? Did the users leave? Was there a conversation?

                        3 votes
                        1. [6]
                          Emerald_Knight Link Parent
                          I actually don't have a solid answer for that. Some users definitely left out of frustration (some actually announced their departure) and some ended up causing problems and definitely got...

                          I actually don't have a solid answer for that. Some users definitely left out of frustration (some actually announced their departure) and some ended up causing problems and definitely got themselves banned (as with Go1dfish).

                          I assume there are several floating around who have simply decided to go dark and lurk because they still hold disagreements but don't want to leave the website completely. Odds are that many have mellowed out after separating themselves from other social media platforms and getting used to Tildes both as a concept and as a community. But I don't have evidence of either of those, only speculation.

                          5 votes
                          1. [3]
                            ThatFanficGuy Link Parent
                            Thanks for sharing some history of this place with me.

                            Thanks for sharing some history of this place with me.

                            3 votes
                            1. [2]
                              Emerald_Knight Link Parent
                              No problem! If you want to read up on a lot of past submissions, you could go through the arduous process of setting the sort to Newest and all time and hit Next until you get to the very...

                              No problem! If you want to read up on a lot of past submissions, you could go through the arduous process of setting the sort to Newest and all time and hit Next until you get to the very beginning. Lots of context there.

                              2 votes
                          2. [2]
                            Amarok Link Parent
                            Quite a few people reformed successfully as well. There's not many people who come here with the intention of being an asshole. It's just that for a lot of us, we've been trained to act that way...

                            Quite a few people reformed successfully as well.

                            There's not many people who come here with the intention of being an asshole. It's just that for a lot of us, we've been trained to act that way because all the other large discussion space on the web have become adversarial nightmares, where everyone is attacked and attacks back in response.

                            Unlearning that attack reflex takes time and exposure to a better way. Tildes is going to have to find ways, through the moderation and feedback systems, to help users get over this reflex and learn to behave like decent human beings again. Those who won't or can't are likely to end up banned.

                            Protip: When Deimos sends you a PM politely asking you to improve your behavior, the appropriate response is not "fuck you" as many have found to their detriment. That just makes his decision easy and guilt-free. ;)

                            2 votes
                            1. Emerald_Knight Link Parent
                              Yeah, that reform is what I meant by mellowing out. Toxic interactions plague social media, so there's definitely an adjustment period.

                              Yeah, that reform is what I meant by mellowing out. Toxic interactions plague social media, so there's definitely an adjustment period.

                2. TheJorro Link Parent
                  I don't believe so, and honestly it wasn't worth reading. Nothing new, just angrier.

                  I don't believe so, and honestly it wasn't worth reading. Nothing new, just angrier.

                  2 votes
              2. [2]
                teaearlgraycold Link Parent
                Since bans are so infrequent it would be neat if we had a little wiki with details on why people got banned. Basically examples of what not to do.

                Since bans are so infrequent it would be neat if we had a little wiki with details on why people got banned. Basically examples of what not to do.

                1. Amarok Link Parent
                  I've pitched putting a tombstone on the user page that cites why. The trouble with this is simple - whatever that user did has almost certainly been deleted, if it was bad enough to get them...

                  I've pitched putting a tombstone on the user page that cites why.

                  The trouble with this is simple - whatever that user did has almost certainly been deleted, if it was bad enough to get them banned. That means there's no evidence/comment/post to link in the tombstone, so it can never show the 'why.' It'd just be a reason given by a bailiff-type moderator.

                  Every single one of these tombstones would show the same thing anyway.

                  "Here lies Fnargenzuven. Died on 2-26-2019 of ass cancer."

                  2 votes
    3. [2]
      hackitfast Link Parent
      That site looks like a cesspool of the alt right and possibly trolls

      That site looks like a cesspool of the alt right and possibly trolls

      1 vote
      1. balooga Link Parent
        I haven't spent much time on there, you're probably right. Still seems better than Voat though...

        I haven't spent much time on there, you're probably right. Still seems better than Voat though...

        3 votes
  2. [3]
    Ephemere Link
    As a side note, it's kind of fun to see all the Spanish and Russian (maybe?) on the first few pages. Reddit et al have non-english content, but usually much harder to find.

    As a side note, it's kind of fun to see all the Spanish and Russian (maybe?) on the first few pages. Reddit et al have non-english content, but usually much harder to find.

    3 votes
    1. [2]
      ThatFanficGuy Link Parent
      There's just one post and one comment in Russian in the whole thing (if the whole thing is five pages long). You got me excited with "all the ... Russian". Odd to see it there, though. There's...

      and Russian (maybe?)

      There's just one post and one comment in Russian in the whole thing (if the whole thing is five pages long). You got me excited with "all the ... Russian".

      Odd to see it there, though. There's /r/Russia back on Reddit, where there are, understandably, plenty of Russian-language posts. Seeing one anywhere near the "evil Western language" is peculiar.

      1 vote
      1. Ephemere Link Parent
        Ah, I'm sorry to give a false impression! I was just scanning for non-english languages and saw the russian post before I commented.

        Ah, I'm sorry to give a false impression! I was just scanning for non-english languages and saw the russian post before I commented.

        1 vote
  3. [4]
    Eabryt Link
    So what's the difference between Reddit, Prismo and Tildes?

    So what's the difference between Reddit, Prismo and Tildes?

    1 vote
    1. [4]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. [3]
        Ephemere Link Parent
        Are there currently multiple instances we can look at? Is there a directory or something similar? That wasn't immediately obvious.

        Are there currently multiple instances we can look at? Is there a directory or something similar? That wasn't immediately obvious.

        1 vote
        1. [3]
          Comment deleted by author
          Link Parent
          1. [2]
            Ephemere Link Parent
            I agree it's very interesting. I'm kind of curious how federated moderation is going to work in practice. I've only dabbled briefly with mastadon, will individual instance owners need to maintain...

            I agree it's very interesting. I'm kind of curious how federated moderation is going to work in practice. I've only dabbled briefly with mastadon, will individual instance owners need to maintain ever changing kill file equivalents to avoid content which does not meet their community standards? Or will there be some alternate way to do it?

            Mastadon seems to be taking off, at least, for a modest value of 'taking off'. Perhaps Prismo will as well.

            6 votes
            1. Amarok Link Parent
              Likely it'll play out as usenet did, and every other decentralized tech has. I can't figure out why people treat activitypub as if it's something new. It's a better tech, surely, but it's not like...

              Likely it'll play out as usenet did, and every other decentralized tech has. I can't figure out why people treat activitypub as if it's something new. It's a better tech, surely, but it's not like the internet didn't start with decentralized technologies. They've been around since the beginning.

              Nodes with similar values will form networks, and blacklist nodes with opposing values. Moderation will be node-specific. Any of them that become successful will grow, and eternal september will show up and feast on their blood as it always does.

              That's why tackling the moderation issue is the worthier problem. Decentralization is a distraction from the real problem/enemy.

              I'd love for some of these to take off, and pull all the people so fascinated with decentralization and federation to them, so the rest of us can get to work on the real problems without the distractions.

              Technically, Tildes is going to have federated moderation (per group, of the group's most trusted users as judged by the group's existing trusted users), and decentralization (of the moderating power to tens of thousands or even millions, instead of a handful of wizard-types). Just because it's all on one website doesn't mean those ideas aren't valuable. ;)

              1 vote
  4. [5]
    acdw Link
    Well, it appears as though we have our first Tildes hug-of-death! Or this has been posted elsewhere as well. But it's probably the hug of death.

    Well, it appears as though we have our first Tildes hug-of-death! Or this has been posted elsewhere as well. But it's probably the hug of death.

    1 vote
    1. [2]
      Nmg Link Parent
      Doubtful. Tildes has ten thousand users registered. Only a certain small fraction of them picked this post.

      Doubtful. Tildes has ten thousand users registered. Only a certain small fraction of them picked this post.

      8 votes
      1. acdw Link Parent
        Oh yes, I was joking -- though poorly! It's hard to joke without resorting to emojis or smileys online.

        Oh yes, I was joking -- though poorly! It's hard to joke without resorting to emojis or smileys online.

        2 votes
    2. [3]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. [2]
        acdw Link Parent
        I think it was actually my work network...oops

        I think it was actually my work network...oops

        1. Amarok Link Parent
          More likely Deimos is tinkering. Tildes has like two second outages while he works that you can barely notice. It's like micro-downtime.

          More likely Deimos is tinkering. Tildes has like two second outages while he works that you can barely notice. It's like micro-downtime.

          1 vote