Traditionally, Amish homes and businesses did not have electricity. This raises the question of how do the Amish keep their e-bike batteries charged? The answer is that many homes and businesses in the same Amish communities that approve of e-bike use also have adopted solar power and natural-gas generators. Mullett’s bike shop, for instance, has all the modern trappings that use electricity including computers, printers, lights, and power tools. The store is totally off the grid, something that is important to Amish families, but it is not lacking in electric power. It has 24 solar panels on the roof, a natural-gas backup generator, powerful lithium batteries, and twin 5,500-watt inverters.
Yeah I'm sure God's not going to notice that. It's pretty clear in the bible that He can only see stuff that's on the mains grid. I don't pretend to understand why these people choose to live like...
Yeah I'm sure God's not going to notice that. It's pretty clear in the bible that He can only see stuff that's on the mains grid.
I don't pretend to understand why these people choose to live like they do (and y'know, as long as it is a choice they've all individually made without pressure or coercion, that's fine) but it does seem a little like it might be cheating to say that 19th and 20th century technology is bad but 21st century stuff is fine. Again, I don't know their rules or reasons. It is perhaps not at all bad to leapfrog straight to sustainable tech.
It's inadvisable to get into the habit of judging people and things you admittedly know nothing about. And generally, "because God said so" is a parody of religious logic that's usually...
I don't pretend to understand why these people choose to live like they do (and y'know, as long as it is a choice they've all individually made without pressure or coercion, that's fine) but it does seem a little like it might be cheating to say that 19th and 20th century technology is bad but 21st century stuff is fine. Again, I don't know their rules or reasons. It is perhaps not at all bad to leapfrog straight to sustainable tech.
It's inadvisable to get into the habit of judging people and things you admittedly know nothing about. And generally, "because God said so" is a parody of religious logic that's usually promulgated by atheists. It's not really consistent with how communities with religiously derived value systems actually think and reason things out.
The Amish don't abjure technology because of an arbitrary cutoff about dates. Their communities are just judicious in which technologies they adopt to maintain an intentional lifestyle that revolves around reinforcing their community values rather than reinforcing values revolving around individualism or consumerism.
And as one of them, I'd say it's because in the US the vast majority of us came from heavily religious households. And if you dig into the 'why' enough when searching for reason, for the vast...
And generally, "because God said so" is a parody of religious logic that's usually promulgated by atheists.
And as one of them, I'd say it's because in the US the vast majority of us came from heavily religious households. And if you dig into the 'why' enough when searching for reason, for the vast majority of the answers, the root ends up being "Because I (God or representative) said so." And that's why positions of trust and power (clergy being a big union of the two) tend to attract abusers.
I do admire the idea of selectively applying technology to avoid disrupting good community values (death of TV would be a good one). However I have not much love for the Amish. Their isolationism allows abusers to thrive.
I specifically said I wasn't judging these people. They seem relatively harmless by the standards of many religions, I have no beef with them or the way they choose to live. However I'm allowed to...
I specifically said I wasn't judging these people. They seem relatively harmless by the standards of many religions, I have no beef with them or the way they choose to live.
However I'm allowed to have an opinion on what they're doing and from what I can see - and that is necessarily a limited viewpoint and again I said as much - their rationale seems inconsistent.
They can, of course, do what they like. My opinion doesn't matter. But if power tools and electric bikes aren't consumer items and their grid-powered versions are, that seems kinda weird. Again, from the outside. I'm sure they have their justifications, I just don't know what they are. I'm sure you don't either, because one thing I am relatively certain about is that even the most progressive Amish aren't allowed to hang out on internet chat boards.
And generally, "because God said so" is a parody of religious logic that's usually promulgated by atheists.
I went to a church school. It's all because God said so. Otherwise it wouldn't be, y'know, religion.
You’re right that we don’t know how it works. If we wanted to, we could find out more by reading other articles like this one that are based on interviews with the Amish, or maybe chatting with...
You’re right that we don’t know how it works. If we wanted to, we could find out more by reading other articles like this one that are based on interviews with the Amish, or maybe chatting with people who used to be Amish. There are books, too.
Since we don’t know how it works, it’s reasonable to be puzzled by what seem to be logical inconsistencies. How does that work? That’s a good way to think of some questions we could investigate.
But if nobody is curious enough to investigate, those questions are going to remain unanswered. No point in having opinions about stuff we know little about.
I mean, that sounds a lot like work to me. I'm not that interested in the exact details of why various cults do what they do. This isn't really weird enough to interest me all that much. Can't I...
I mean, that sounds a lot like work to me. I'm not that interested in the exact details of why various cults do what they do. This isn't really weird enough to interest me all that much.
Can't I just have an opinion? As long as I remain aware of the limitations of the information I have to form that opinion? It's not like I'm forming public policy here or anything. I've never met an Amish or ex-Amish person and I doubt I ever will. They're not really a thing in my country. Nothing I think or do will have any effect on the people involved. I can do no harm by just thinking they're a bit odd and perhaps inconsistent, surely?
To look at it another way, why did you post this? To generate discussion, or were you expecting people to go off and do more reading before engaging? How much information should I have before I can form an opinion? Two more articles? Three? Or do I need to do some of my own interviews? I mean that's going to need a very expensive plane ticket and at least a week off work. I cannot afford the childcare, frankly.
Tildes is just a chat board. It's a pretty high quality chat board, but I think just reading the article linked should qualify someone to have some thoughts about it. I did read it twice, in case I'd missed something which would make it make more sense. Also if I leave a comment perhaps some more knowledgable people will come along and add stuff they know. Understanding one's own ignorance is the first step towards learning, after all.
Well, partly I posted it because being pro-curiosity is a hobby-horse of mine, and I'm still figuring out how to do it that isn't implicitly assigning people homework or discouraging people from...
Exemplary
Well, partly I posted it because being pro-curiosity is a hobby-horse of mine, and I'm still figuring out how to do it that isn't implicitly assigning people homework or discouraging people from posting. So I want to say that not researching stuff is fine. I'm not going to do any research either.
(But also, if someone were really interested in the Amish and wanted to research it, please go ahead, I'd be interested in what you find.)
I also want to acknowledge that you had plenty of caveats about not understanding the Amish and also that this change is perhaps not all bad. It's not like we need more disclaimers!
Let's talk about some actual opinions:
It's pretty clear in the bible that He can only see stuff that's on the mains grid.
You're being sarcastic, but this sort of loophole reminds of how Jews sometimes reason legalistically about keeping Kosher. There is that fishing line in Manhattan for example. I'm doubtful that the Amish think in the same legalistic way, though. I'm guessing that deciding to be off-the-grid isn't going to based on some weird bible interpretation? We can turn this into a neutral question pretty easily:
Why is it important to the Amish to be off-the-grid?
I don't think we can answer it, though.
I went to a church school. It's all because God said so. Otherwise it wouldn't be, y'know, religion.
I think it's important to assume that people really do believe their own religion. But also, religious people can use different styles of reasoning. It seems like sometimes, religions allow believers to admit that they (or their leaders) are making some policy decisions and not God? Maybe "with God's blessing" or some formality like that. I don't know how Amish churches go about it, though.
It's probably not what you meant, but what you said comes across as somewhat anti-curious, along the lines of "I don't care what they think, it's just going to be some religious nonsense anyway." I think that how the Amish decide on which technologies to use is one of the more interesting things about them, even if there may be some religious nonsense involved.
But also, despite that mild disagreement, I totally get wanting to be able to post some perhaps-not-entirely-reasonable opinion and get away with it. When I do that here, I'm usually called on it. I have to backtrack on it, and it feels unfair because I'm usually better about it! Especially since on Twitter or Reddit or Hacker News or Mastodon, there are people posting bad takes all day, so why can't I get away with it just this once? (Maybe this is one of the ways that reading too much social media is bad?)
So although I think many opinions would work better as questions, I shouldn't say that posting opinions is bad, and I apologize for that. If Tildes filled up with hot takes then that would be bad, but we're in no danger of that.
I'm not sure what else I should be doing better. I tend to vote for posts I agree with and reply only if I disagree somehow, so I have a lot more practice disagreeing than agreeing. It seems like a bad habit.
From the article:
Yeah I'm sure God's not going to notice that. It's pretty clear in the bible that He can only see stuff that's on the mains grid.
I don't pretend to understand why these people choose to live like they do (and y'know, as long as it is a choice they've all individually made without pressure or coercion, that's fine) but it does seem a little like it might be cheating to say that 19th and 20th century technology is bad but 21st century stuff is fine. Again, I don't know their rules or reasons. It is perhaps not at all bad to leapfrog straight to sustainable tech.
It's inadvisable to get into the habit of judging people and things you admittedly know nothing about. And generally, "because God said so" is a parody of religious logic that's usually promulgated by atheists. It's not really consistent with how communities with religiously derived value systems actually think and reason things out.
The Amish don't abjure technology because of an arbitrary cutoff about dates. Their communities are just judicious in which technologies they adopt to maintain an intentional lifestyle that revolves around reinforcing their community values rather than reinforcing values revolving around individualism or consumerism.
And as one of them, I'd say it's because in the US the vast majority of us came from heavily religious households. And if you dig into the 'why' enough when searching for reason, for the vast majority of the answers, the root ends up being "Because I (God or representative) said so." And that's why positions of trust and power (clergy being a big union of the two) tend to attract abusers.
I do admire the idea of selectively applying technology to avoid disrupting good community values (death of TV would be a good one). However I have not much love for the Amish. Their isolationism allows abusers to thrive.
I specifically said I wasn't judging these people. They seem relatively harmless by the standards of many religions, I have no beef with them or the way they choose to live.
However I'm allowed to have an opinion on what they're doing and from what I can see - and that is necessarily a limited viewpoint and again I said as much - their rationale seems inconsistent.
They can, of course, do what they like. My opinion doesn't matter. But if power tools and electric bikes aren't consumer items and their grid-powered versions are, that seems kinda weird. Again, from the outside. I'm sure they have their justifications, I just don't know what they are. I'm sure you don't either, because one thing I am relatively certain about is that even the most progressive Amish aren't allowed to hang out on internet chat boards.
I went to a church school. It's all because God said so. Otherwise it wouldn't be, y'know, religion.
You’re right that we don’t know how it works. If we wanted to, we could find out more by reading other articles like this one that are based on interviews with the Amish, or maybe chatting with people who used to be Amish. There are books, too.
Since we don’t know how it works, it’s reasonable to be puzzled by what seem to be logical inconsistencies. How does that work? That’s a good way to think of some questions we could investigate.
But if nobody is curious enough to investigate, those questions are going to remain unanswered. No point in having opinions about stuff we know little about.
I mean, that sounds a lot like work to me. I'm not that interested in the exact details of why various cults do what they do. This isn't really weird enough to interest me all that much.
Can't I just have an opinion? As long as I remain aware of the limitations of the information I have to form that opinion? It's not like I'm forming public policy here or anything. I've never met an Amish or ex-Amish person and I doubt I ever will. They're not really a thing in my country. Nothing I think or do will have any effect on the people involved. I can do no harm by just thinking they're a bit odd and perhaps inconsistent, surely?
To look at it another way, why did you post this? To generate discussion, or were you expecting people to go off and do more reading before engaging? How much information should I have before I can form an opinion? Two more articles? Three? Or do I need to do some of my own interviews? I mean that's going to need a very expensive plane ticket and at least a week off work. I cannot afford the childcare, frankly.
Tildes is just a chat board. It's a pretty high quality chat board, but I think just reading the article linked should qualify someone to have some thoughts about it. I did read it twice, in case I'd missed something which would make it make more sense. Also if I leave a comment perhaps some more knowledgable people will come along and add stuff they know. Understanding one's own ignorance is the first step towards learning, after all.
Well, partly I posted it because being pro-curiosity is a hobby-horse of mine, and I'm still figuring out how to do it that isn't implicitly assigning people homework or discouraging people from posting. So I want to say that not researching stuff is fine. I'm not going to do any research either.
(But also, if someone were really interested in the Amish and wanted to research it, please go ahead, I'd be interested in what you find.)
I also want to acknowledge that you had plenty of caveats about not understanding the Amish and also that this change is perhaps not all bad. It's not like we need more disclaimers!
Let's talk about some actual opinions:
You're being sarcastic, but this sort of loophole reminds of how Jews sometimes reason legalistically about keeping Kosher. There is that fishing line in Manhattan for example. I'm doubtful that the Amish think in the same legalistic way, though. I'm guessing that deciding to be off-the-grid isn't going to based on some weird bible interpretation? We can turn this into a neutral question pretty easily:
I don't think we can answer it, though.
I think it's important to assume that people really do believe their own religion. But also, religious people can use different styles of reasoning. It seems like sometimes, religions allow believers to admit that they (or their leaders) are making some policy decisions and not God? Maybe "with God's blessing" or some formality like that. I don't know how Amish churches go about it, though.
It's probably not what you meant, but what you said comes across as somewhat anti-curious, along the lines of "I don't care what they think, it's just going to be some religious nonsense anyway." I think that how the Amish decide on which technologies to use is one of the more interesting things about them, even if there may be some religious nonsense involved.
But also, despite that mild disagreement, I totally get wanting to be able to post some perhaps-not-entirely-reasonable opinion and get away with it. When I do that here, I'm usually called on it. I have to backtrack on it, and it feels unfair because I'm usually better about it! Especially since on Twitter or Reddit or Hacker News or Mastodon, there are people posting bad takes all day, so why can't I get away with it just this once? (Maybe this is one of the ways that reading too much social media is bad?)
So although I think many opinions would work better as questions, I shouldn't say that posting opinions is bad, and I apologize for that. If Tildes filled up with hot takes then that would be bad, but we're in no danger of that.
I'm not sure what else I should be doing better. I tend to vote for posts I agree with and reply only if I disagree somehow, so I have a lot more practice disagreeing than agreeing. It seems like a bad habit.