31 votes

Munich Airport suspends operations for the second time in 24 hours following more drone sightings

8 comments

  1. [7]
    smoontjes
    Link

    Munich Airport has again suspended operations following further "unconfirmed drone sightings" in the vicinity, an airport spokesman confirmed to the dpa news agency.

    The move comes hours after a drone was spotted above a German military installation in the nearby town of Erding, northeast of Munich city center.

    7 votes
    1. [6]
      286437714
      Link Parent
      PM Frederiksen's comments this week proving well timed and true: It is great to hear a European leader call this what it is, and I am very glad they had the chance to discuss coordinated responses...

      PM Frederiksen's comments this week proving well timed and true:

      “I hope that everybody recognises now that there is a hybrid war, and one day it’s Poland, the other day it’s Denmark, and next week it will probably be somewhere else that we see sabotage or … drones flying,” she told reporters on Wednesday.

      “I think we are in the most difficult and dangerous situation since the second world war.”

      It is great to hear a European leader call this what it is, and I am very glad they had the chance to discuss coordinated responses this week.

      14 votes
      1. [5]
        chocobean
        Link Parent
        How does war actually get declared? Does an aggressor country just kinda do this kind of super annoying/ potentially dangerous stuff until the provoked country declares it for what it is? Did it...

        How does war actually get declared? Does an aggressor country just kinda do this kind of super annoying/ potentially dangerous stuff until the provoked country declares it for what it is? Did it used to be boots on the ground? Or do the provoked countries denounce and get huffy but avoid the W word until absolutely no other way to describe it?

        Does PM here calling it a hybrid war count ?

        4 votes
        1. [4]
          286437714
          Link Parent
          This is a tricky one, and I'm sorry in my answer turns out long. Apologies also if my wording is bad, English can be tricky. In the old days, there was a document all the European powers signed...
          • Exemplary

          This is a tricky one, and I'm sorry in my answer turns out long. Apologies also if my wording is bad, English can be tricky.

          In the old days, there was a document all the European powers signed called the Treaty of Westphalia. This is what gave us modern day nation states. It used to be when someone wanted a bit of another state, or someone took a bit of another state, the belligerent would pre-emptively declare war out of politeness, or the defender would declare war in response.

          This all got messed up at the end of World War 2 when it became clear that being at war meant someone could use nuclear weapons on you. So (I'm trying to think of wars that Canada was involved in), the Korean War was a 'police action' theoretically led by the UN, Afghanistan was a counter-terror/counter-insurgency operation by UN charter.

          I don't know if you remember, but a lot of leaders were avoiding the W word about Ukraine for the first couple of years. Putin obviously called it a Special Military Operation, but as you say, a lot of people wanted to avoid the W word until absolutely no other word described it. There have been wars that are called wars since 1945, but only small ones tend to be 'declared'. If you look at the flags in that table, other countries are generally making the determination of the 'existence of a state of war' because the small countries can't get angry and expand that war to the broader international community.


          So I started with Europe not to be boring but to make a point. Because of the history of conventional war on the European continent, we have a very binary way of looking at conflict. If somebody uses their military on you, that's war, and your allies pile in. That is what NATO is founded on, and article 5 in particular - if anyone is attacked, everyone is attacked.

          I don't want to lump the two together, because the way they do it is very different, but Russia and Chinese expansion in the 21st century has broken this model. Hybrid war is something that (personal opinion) European nation states still struggle mightily with. I attended one international conference with lots of table top exercises about a decade ago where we were all trying to figure out 'What kind of cyber attack would be the equivalent of a missile strike or a bombing?', just to try and jam hybrid operations into our traditional mental model.

          The short answer is unless NATO invokes Article 5, European leaders will continue to call out Russian non-traditional military aggression (drones, cyber attacks, election interference, fake news, information operations, assassinations) without calling it the W-word. Theoretically, Poland could have triggered Article 5 a number of times as their sovereign airspace has had armed incursions from Russian fighters and drones. But preventing war with a nuclear superpower whilst not putting up with continued attacks against society and infrastructure is the great challenge facing the EU and other states at the moment.

          PM Frederiksen has actually gone quite far here by stating plainly that many parts of Europe are engaged in a hybrid war already. In the same week, the ex-head of the UK's domestic Security Service stated plainly that the UK may be at war with Russia already, because of the severity of cyber attacks, other hybrid activities, and the assassination using chemical weapons of people on British soil by Russia.

          So the PM calling it a hybrid war doesn't mean war is declared or a state of war exists, to the Western European and Baltic leaders. But Russian leadership may well think they're at war with everyone bar their allies anyway, and many security theorists have been trying to argue this since about 2010. There are similar arguments made about China and the South China Sea/Northeast Asia hybrid activities, but that is less relevant to this conversation.


          • Sorry that was so long. I do want to caveat it with that is deliberately based in traditional European thought because that's what's causing people to be so worried at the moment, as that model of 'war/peace' doesn't fit anymore. I would argue even in the 17th century it didn't, as European colonialism was nothing to my mind but one large series of invasions featuring all the key hallmarks of a war, just not called war because the colonised were not signatories to international treaties. Different cultures conceive of war in very different ways, and I would like to acknowledge that.

          • India ordering the assassination of a Canadian citizen would have been a classic cause for war under the old system, at least pre-nuclear weapons. In an alternate history where that happened while the British empire was still a thing, it probably would have led to a declaration of war by the Crown, a short war on the Indian subcontinent to show that That's Just Not The Done Thing Actually, and then a peace agreement saying 'Let's Not Use Our Intelligence Services To Kill People on Each Other's Soil Now'. But, Canada's great and powerful friend is in the middle of a frothing fascist meltdown, India has nukes and a billion people, so all PM Trudeau could do was say 'We don't like that very much' and respond with diplomatic measures.

          • Getting things to a stage where everyone agrees 'okay, war time' is probably harder than it has been in modern history, and autocratic or illiberal states are much better equipped to take advantage of this than liberal democracies who are used to fighting 'fair'.

          • The very very simple answer to 'when is it war' is when uniformed personnel and intelligence officers get paid extra to go to a particular area of operations. It has many different names in European militaries, and I think in Canada it's called 'Warlike Service'. Even though theoretically Afghanistan was a nation-building operation (🫥), CAF personnel and intelligence people getting deployed got a bunch of extra money because of the likelihood of getting blown up or shot.

          27 votes
          1. [3]
            chocobean
            Link Parent
            Woah, thank you very much. What you explained has huge implacations for how I understood conflicts, and will be handy for explaining a lot of current / modern events. Growing up in North America...

            Woah, thank you very much. What you explained has huge implacations for how I understood conflicts, and will be handy for explaining a lot of current / modern events.

            Growing up in North America reading mostly European history, I wish they taught us kids they the modern binary concept of war (from Treaty of Westphalia) had been a recent human invention. That quick skirmishes with a less than friendly entity, or encroachment of property boundary by settling near / across / unilaterally decaring new border, or demanding tributes with threats of violence, or mass kidnapping of citizenry for enslavement, or refusal to acknowledge the sovereignty / existence of a nation.....those and many such actions are war-like already.

            It makes so much sense now, last year, why Canada expelled Indian diplomats and then seemingly didn't do anything after a Canadian was assassinated. Actually, just a few days ago there is follow-up on this news: "Sikh separatist arrested as Canada smooths ties with India" - (Archive) (Original Globe and Mail) I guess it can be read as we we were at not-war for a year, and now definitely not at war, having worked out a deal in which we'll accept intel on organized illegal firearms activities and make arrests, but we won't make separatist talk illegal nor accept Indian direct assassinations. From their POV they probably feel vindicated that they've been complaining about armed separatists forever and we seem to be harbouring them until they did their thing. (I have a soft spot for diaspora separatists, but they have to abide by the rules of their host nation.....)

            5 votes
            1. CptBluebear
              Link Parent
              Consider Iran and Israel lobbing missiles at each other but pinky promising they're not actually at war. War is now pushing the other party as much as you can without declaring war while making...

              Consider Iran and Israel lobbing missiles at each other but pinky promising they're not actually at war.

              War is now pushing the other party as much as you can without declaring war while making sure they won't declare war on you either. This has escalated to the point of the above example. Which is fucking absurd of course. They were literally throwing cruise missiles into cities. Russia still has not declared war on Ukraine!

              The above post is stellar in outlining why it no longer happens, one addition to that is that modern full scale war is so incredibly costly and destructive (and mostly unpopular) that hesitancy to declare war extends beyond the nuclear spectre.

              5 votes
            2. 286437714
              (edited )
              Link Parent
              Yeah that makes sense to me from an international security perspective. Not-war to definitely not at war after lots of little moves is a good summary from what little I know (thanks for the...

              I guess it can be read as we we were at not-war for a year, and now definitely not at war, having worked out a deal in which we'll accept intel on organized illegal firearms activities and make arrests, but we won't make separatist talk illegal nor accept Indian direct assassinations.

              Yeah that makes sense to me from an international security perspective. Not-war to definitely not at war after lots of little moves is a good summary from what little I know (thanks for the link!).

              ...those and many such actions are war-like already.

              Yeah absolutely. And because our conception of war and peace is so pervasive, the actions of culturally different global powers can seem bewildering.

              My very dumb analogy for it is European nations (and sometimes their ex-colonies) are currently like people who have only ever met dogs. Now they have suddenly met cats for the first time.

              If a dog likes you, it wants to play and cuddle you. That makes straight forward sense. If it doesn't like you, it will keep its distance, growl, or try and bite you. Easy.

              But if a cat likes you, it might push your glass of water off your desk, or sit on your keyboard. Maybe it will claw at your hair. Is that playful or was it trying to get your face? Or it might scratch you and then want to sleep on you later. Maybe it doesn't like you at all? Its expression stays the same while it does all of these things. Its ears aren't back and its not hissing, so it's probably not going to attack, right? Whoops, just got bit again. But now it's rubbing against your legs and purring. What is going on?!

              I think my silly analogy works much better for China than for Russia, as Russia - being at war with Ukraine - has stopped doing the nice stuff to balance out the war-like stuff, at least with countries that aren't allies or client states. But the whole 'we're either at war or at peace' binary has been over for a long time, and systems of government who come from that traditional rules-based Post-WWII international order are really struggling.

              Here's a good little article I could find trying to fit Russia's actions into a traditional (American) military model. It also argues for expanding that model to include the full spectrum of conflict.

              Today, both the State Department and the Department of Defense often identify belligerent aggression that does not fit neatly along a linear conflict continuum, resulting in a bewildered and delayed response.

              This was written in 2023, when things in America were normal and the military was much less partisan. But the point about responses being 'bewildered and delayed' applies to many NATO nations and other liberal democracies that are still thinking in terms of 'war/peace', 'allowed/not allowed', 'legal/illegal'. I think what the author gets wrong is not including 'cooperation' in there, but it's hard to boil everything down to one Powerpoint slide, and that's what traditional militaries in a liberal democracy really want to do!

              5 votes
  2. smoontjes
    Link
    This of course follows the drones over half a dozen Denmark airports + military bases as well as some in Norway. So something relevant to this post: Denmark reports repeated Russian naval...

    This of course follows the drones over half a dozen Denmark airports + military bases as well as some in Norway. So something relevant to this post:

    Denmark reports repeated Russian naval provocations in its straits

    Archive link

    "We have seen several incidents in the Danish straits, where Danish air force helicopters and naval vessels have been targeted by tracking radars and physically pointed at with weapons from Russian warships," Danish Defence Intelligence Service Director Thomas Ahrenkiel told a press conference.

    Defence intelligence has also recorded Russian warships sailing through Danish straits with sonar and jamming equipment, according to Ahrenkiel. He said it was "highly probable" that they, on at least one occasion, had jammed signals and caused extensive GPS interference in Denmark.

    5 votes