Thanks for the thoughtful interesting article. I've only read Slaughterhouse Five from Vonnegut. But I did read some Chesterton in my youth as well as Douglas Adams. I'm also a reader and rereader...
Thanks for the thoughtful interesting article. I've only read Slaughterhouse Five from Vonnegut. But I did read some Chesterton in my youth as well as Douglas Adams. I'm also a reader and rereader of Pratchett's work. This writer gets Discworld.
I've read most, if not all of Vonnegut's work and highly recommend it (I fully agree with the author of this article as a fan of Adams, Pratchett, and Vonnegut, even though this particular...
I've read most, if not all of Vonnegut's work and highly recommend it (I fully agree with the author of this article as a fan of Adams, Pratchett, and Vonnegut, even though this particular comparison hadn't previously occurred to me). To me, Slaughterhouse-Five, while good, is probably one of his middle-tier works.
I personally view Vonnegut as a lay sociologist (along the lines of Eric Hoffer), who uses the medium of fiction to convey his observations of humanity. Mother Night is probably one of my favorite Vonnegut books, with the "theme" of "We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful what we pretend to be" holding strong value in Internet forums—and real life—where joking attitudes can become the [unintended and detrimental] reality. Similarly, Slapstick (or, Lonesome No More!) contains great observations on the nature of family and society, as well as tribalism. Finally, his 2005 memoir A Man Without a Country has one of my favorite quips: "I never thought I'd live to see the day when the three most powerful men in the world would be named Bush, Dick, and Colon" [Bush, Cheney, Powell].
That was a gentle and refreshing read, thanks for linking it. I read Pratchett as an adult and love it currently, while I read Adams as a youth and only I guess thought I liked it. There really is...
That was a gentle and refreshing read, thanks for linking it.
I read Pratchett as an adult and love it currently, while I read Adams as a youth and only I guess thought I liked it. There really is a sort of cynical detachment to Adam's world that made it harder to truly fall in love. Laugh at often, impressed by sometimes, but it never felt like a world that I want to live in: perhaps only visit as a guide book tourist. In the exact opposite way Middle Earth is like that..... marvel at it yes definitely, but its serious sincerity keeps me at a distance the way Adams's insincerity does.
Pratchett's Discworld is as alien as a space turtle, but somehow yes the author is right, it's got a very humanist tone to it all.
Maybe it's time I finally read some Kurt Vonnegut and Chesterton
Men invent new ideals because they dare not attempt old ideals. They look forward with enthusiasm, because they are afraid to look back. – GKC, What’s Wrong With the World, 1910
Can I recommend Iain M. Banks's Culture books as a happy medium between Adams' cynical detachment and Tolkien's serious sincerity? They are my favourite books ever. Nothing I've read has ever come...
Can I recommend Iain M. Banks's Culture books as a happy medium between Adams' cynical detachment and Tolkien's serious sincerity?
They are my favourite books ever. Nothing I've read has ever come close to the tone, so it's very hard to describe. Pratchett-but-sci-fi is as close as I can get, but even that's not doing the originality and philosophy and heart of the books justice.
Sure, I can give you my answer simply, and go into more detail if you want. There are - there are several large supporting characters from species that are biologically immortal, and view Culture...
Exemplary
Sure, I can give you my answer simply, and go into more detail if you want.
It seems contradictory to the more materialist grounded universe and cynical about the lives of intelligent beings to a degree I couldn't square. I can chalk it up to the fact that it would completely change the worldbuilding to have these ageless beings everywhere.
There are - there are several large supporting characters from species that are biologically immortal, and view Culture people as weird for having death as part as their lifecycle. The Homondans and the Morthanveld (from Look to Windward and Matter) are examples of this.
The Culture books are mostly told from the perspective of Minds, AIs and humans of the Culture. And broadly, the people of the Culture view the desire for immortality as a kind of immaturity. They generally view people striving after living forever as deeply weird, and this is explored explicitly in two books - Use of Weapons and The Hydrogen Sonata. Death is a part of the universe, and trying to pretend otherwise is a bit childish - but by no means banned, like everything in the Culture.
Implicit in the stories so far is that through self-correcting mechanisms, the Culture reached a rough steady-state thousands of years ago, and has settled into a kind of long-lived civilisational main sequence which should last for the forseeable future, and thousands of generations.
Which brings us to the length of those generations, and the fact that they can be said to exist at all. Humans in the Culture normally live about three-and-a-half to four centuries. The majority of their lives consists of a three-century plateau which they reach in what we would compare to our mid-twenties, after a relatively normal pace of maturation during childhood, adolescence and early adulthood. They age very slowly during those three hundred years, then begin to age more quickly, then they die.
Philosophy, again; death is regarded as part of life, and nothing, including the universe, lasts forever. It is seen as bad manners to try and pretend that death is somehow not natural; instead death is seen as giving shape to life.
While burial, cremation and other - to us - conventional forms of body disposal are not unknown in the Culture, the most common form of funeral involves the deceased - usually surrounded by friends - being visited by a Displacement Drone, which - using the technique of near-instantaneous transmission of a remotely induced singularity via hyperspace - removes the corpse from its last resting place and deposits it in the core of the relevant system's sun, from where the component particles of the cadaver start a million-year migration to the star's surface, to shine - possibly - long after the Culture itself is history.
None of this, of course, is compulsory (nothing in the Culture is compulsory). Some people choose biological immortality; others have their personality transcribed into AIs and die happy feeling they continue to exist elsewhere; others again go into Storage, to be woken in more (or less) interesting times, or only every decade, or century, or aeon, or over exponentially increasing intervals, or only when it looks like something really different is happening...
By the end of the series - particularly with The Hydrogen Sonata and Surface Detail - other civilisations' views on death, immortality, digital afterlives, and dimensional transcendence are explored. In the universe of the books, civilizations generally enter a period of lassitude where everything is completed, there's not much else to be done, so it's time to collectively explore what's next - the Sublime, a sort of extra-dimensional retirement. It's not a hand-wave sci-fi heaven. It's complex, and even the very advanced civilizations of the galaxy don't fully understand it. The Hydrogen Sonata is devoted almost solely to exploring the implications of it. The Culture's own section for studying the Sublime is colloquially referred to as The Department of What the Fuck?
The Culture, by the end point of the series' timeline, is regarded by other civilizations as being a bit weird for not stepping into the enfold, and continuing to be 'in play'. Philosophically, there are some interesting comparisons between Theravadan and Mahayanan Buddhism, but I'm not sure if that was intentional by Banks.
I'm so glad. The philosophy of Banks' work often comes second to the funny ship names and the colourful characters, but he was a deeply thoughtful man. If it's of any help, my suggested reading...
Exemplary
I'm so glad. The philosophy of Banks' work often comes second to the funny ship names and the colourful characters, but he was a deeply thoughtful man.
If it's of any help, my suggested reading order would be:
The Player of Games
Use of Weapons
Excession
Inversions (a Culture book that is written from the perspective of a primitive society - fascinating idea and amazingly executed, this one is really underappreciated in my opinion)
Matter (often criticised for being too dense with little pay-off - I see it more of Banks' commentary about how little individuals can impact truly great events)
Look To Windward
Surface Detail (chronologically, the latest book in the universe's timeline, but I like to read it second-last)
The Hydrogen Sonata
The last book is very much about death, dying, what comes after, when should civilisation stop intervening and just give up, what might people do if the rapture was scientifically provable, slightly mysterious, and coming rapidly. Banks wrote it while he - unknowingly - had terminal cancer, and was diagnosed after it was finished. He died shortly after its publication, but I always find it a really beautiful note to end on, even if the thematic linkages were unintentional.
Good luck, and watch out for the pairing of a Special Circumstances agent and an offensive Drone. Their appearance either heralds a very good day, or a very very bad one.
I love this whole comment chain so much. The Culture has long been my favourite book series as well as fictional universe, and I completely agree that Banks’ philosophy (and politics - he was a...
I love this whole comment chain so much. The Culture has long been my favourite book series as well as fictional universe, and I completely agree that Banks’ philosophy (and politics - he was a staunch socialist) comes through loud and clear, but doesn’t often get as much attention.
You missed Consider Phlebas in your list which is a great book and true space opera (I believe it was considered one of the most likely to be turned into a movie? Which I’m rather glad didn’t happen). I’m sure that was intentional, but just throwing it out there for any other readers.
Excession is probably my favourite book of the series, if only because I’m a sucker for the antics of the Minds and again, space opera.
I met Banks a couple of times and he was a true gent. Lovely, lovely man and the world - and our bookshelves - are lucky to have had him.
Side note, if anyone exhausts the Culture series and wants something that scratches a similar itch but in a very (very) different universe, consider the Warhammer 40k Eisenhorn series. They give me similar feels.
Pratchett was a humanist through and through, with a refreshingly pragmatic but empathetic view on death with dignity for terminal illnesses. His nonfiction essay anthology A Slip of the Keyboard...
Pratchett's Discworld is as alien as a space turtle, but somehow yes the author is right, it's got a very humanist tone to it all.
Pratchett was a humanist through and through, with a refreshingly pragmatic but empathetic view on death with dignity for terminal illnesses. His nonfiction essay anthology A Slip of the Keyboard is well worth reading.
I have never read Chesterton and apart from seeing the Father Brown BBC series have had no interaction with him Where would be a good place to start do you think (seeing as how the article and...
I have never read Chesterton and apart from seeing the Father Brown BBC series have had no interaction with him
Where would be a good place to start do you think (seeing as how the article and comments ask the same question)?
Here are a few options. Unlike Sir Terry, Chesterton was very Roman Catholic. (As seen in his Father Brown mysteries) Some of his books are actual attempts at Christian apologetics targeting his...
Here are a few options. Unlike Sir Terry, Chesterton was very Roman Catholic. (As seen in his Father Brown mysteries) Some of his books are actual attempts at Christian apologetics targeting his contemporaries. I am going from memory having read a fair amount of his work at a time when I was myself religious in my early 20s. I believe (but am not certain) that everything listed here is humourous fiction. It will also match Chesterton's philosophical and religious ideas but I remember him being funny.
Pratchett, Adams, Vonnegut, they're three of my all-time favorite authors for sure. But why feel the need to compare them? There may be some overlay in their Venn diagrams, but they're completely...
Pratchett, Adams, Vonnegut, they're three of my all-time favorite authors for sure. But why feel the need to compare them? There may be some overlay in their Venn diagrams, but they're completely separate in my mind, and finding huge enjoyment in one certainly shouldn't detract you from the others. Not that I'm saying the author of the article is making that point, but I guess I just feel it's weird to even feel a need to compare them side by side?
Pratchett was fantasy fiction's Kurt Vonnegut? Nah, he's just Sir Terry Pratchett, an author beloved the world around for his amazing work.
I agree that it's fundamentally pointless, to try and line up these comparisons, but, on the other hand, Pratchett and Adams share a ton of similarities in style and demographics of readers. Like...
I agree that it's fundamentally pointless, to try and line up these comparisons, but, on the other hand, Pratchett and Adams share a ton of similarities in style and demographics of readers. Like the article says, The Colour of Magic and the other first few books are very much straight pastiche, justifying the early "The Fantasy Hitchhiker's Guide!" response. A lot of people even confuse them with each other.
Hughes seems to be trying to at least critique the way that even the press will constantly bring up the other when one is the subject. The idea might be that if it can be demonstrated that two other authors, one held in high critical esteem for political and effective writing, and the other held in high regard for his contributions to furthering the accessibility of philosophy to laypeople, are as close to Pratchett as the cliched analog, we might stop using the cliche. Alternatively, they might be a little too hung up on general opinions of quality and fear that people are disrespecting Pratchett's thematic depth based on association.
I hear what you're saying, and I appreciate the reply. I guess I just don't do enough reading of articles like this, and am therefore unaware that so much time and ink has been devoted to...
I hear what you're saying, and I appreciate the reply. I guess I just don't do enough reading of articles like this, and am therefore unaware that so much time and ink has been devoted to comparing and contrasting these two (or three in this case).
I guess I would just rather spend the time reading another good book than to read other people's thoughts and comparisons on them? It certainly doesn't surprise me that this stuff is out there, it just seems to be slightly odd to me (it doesn't really accomplish much in the end, as far as tangible results at least). But hey, gotta love that there are infinite viewpoints out there, it certainly adds a spice of variety to the world!
Thanks for the thoughtful interesting article. I've only read Slaughterhouse Five from Vonnegut. But I did read some Chesterton in my youth as well as Douglas Adams. I'm also a reader and rereader of Pratchett's work. This writer gets Discworld.
I've read most, if not all of Vonnegut's work and highly recommend it (I fully agree with the author of this article as a fan of Adams, Pratchett, and Vonnegut, even though this particular comparison hadn't previously occurred to me). To me, Slaughterhouse-Five, while good, is probably one of his middle-tier works.
I personally view Vonnegut as a lay sociologist (along the lines of Eric Hoffer), who uses the medium of fiction to convey his observations of humanity. Mother Night is probably one of my favorite Vonnegut books, with the "theme" of "We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful what we pretend to be" holding strong value in Internet forums—and real life—where joking attitudes can become the [unintended and detrimental] reality. Similarly, Slapstick (or, Lonesome No More!) contains great observations on the nature of family and society, as well as tribalism. Finally, his 2005 memoir A Man Without a Country has one of my favorite quips: "I never thought I'd live to see the day when the three most powerful men in the world would be named Bush, Dick, and Colon" [Bush, Cheney, Powell].
That was a gentle and refreshing read, thanks for linking it.
I read Pratchett as an adult and love it currently, while I read Adams as a youth and only I guess thought I liked it. There really is a sort of cynical detachment to Adam's world that made it harder to truly fall in love. Laugh at often, impressed by sometimes, but it never felt like a world that I want to live in: perhaps only visit as a guide book tourist. In the exact opposite way Middle Earth is like that..... marvel at it yes definitely, but its serious sincerity keeps me at a distance the way Adams's insincerity does.
Pratchett's Discworld is as alien as a space turtle, but somehow yes the author is right, it's got a very humanist tone to it all.
Maybe it's time I finally read some Kurt Vonnegut and Chesterton
Edit. Imma start with What's Wrong With The World
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1717/1717-h/1717-h.htm
Can I recommend Iain M. Banks's Culture books as a happy medium between Adams' cynical detachment and Tolkien's serious sincerity?
They are my favourite books ever. Nothing I've read has ever come close to the tone, so it's very hard to describe. Pratchett-but-sci-fi is as close as I can get, but even that's not doing the originality and philosophy and heart of the books justice.
Sure, I can give you my answer simply, and go into more detail if you want.
There are - there are several large supporting characters from species that are biologically immortal, and view Culture people as weird for having death as part as their lifecycle. The Homondans and the Morthanveld (from Look to Windward and Matter) are examples of this.
The Culture books are mostly told from the perspective of Minds, AIs and humans of the Culture. And broadly, the people of the Culture view the desire for immortality as a kind of immaturity. They generally view people striving after living forever as deeply weird, and this is explored explicitly in two books - Use of Weapons and The Hydrogen Sonata. Death is a part of the universe, and trying to pretend otherwise is a bit childish - but by no means banned, like everything in the Culture.
From the author, in his essay A Few Notes on the Culture:
By the end of the series - particularly with The Hydrogen Sonata and Surface Detail - other civilisations' views on death, immortality, digital afterlives, and dimensional transcendence are explored. In the universe of the books, civilizations generally enter a period of lassitude where everything is completed, there's not much else to be done, so it's time to collectively explore what's next - the Sublime, a sort of extra-dimensional retirement. It's not a hand-wave sci-fi heaven. It's complex, and even the very advanced civilizations of the galaxy don't fully understand it. The Hydrogen Sonata is devoted almost solely to exploring the implications of it. The Culture's own section for studying the Sublime is colloquially referred to as The Department of What the Fuck?
The Culture, by the end point of the series' timeline, is regarded by other civilizations as being a bit weird for not stepping into the enfold, and continuing to be 'in play'. Philosophically, there are some interesting comparisons between Theravadan and Mahayanan Buddhism, but I'm not sure if that was intentional by Banks.
I'm so glad. The philosophy of Banks' work often comes second to the funny ship names and the colourful characters, but he was a deeply thoughtful man.
If it's of any help, my suggested reading order would be:
The Player of Games
Use of Weapons
Excession
Inversions (a Culture book that is written from the perspective of a primitive society - fascinating idea and amazingly executed, this one is really underappreciated in my opinion)
Matter (often criticised for being too dense with little pay-off - I see it more of Banks' commentary about how little individuals can impact truly great events)
Look To Windward
Surface Detail (chronologically, the latest book in the universe's timeline, but I like to read it second-last)
The Hydrogen Sonata
The last book is very much about death, dying, what comes after, when should civilisation stop intervening and just give up, what might people do if the rapture was scientifically provable, slightly mysterious, and coming rapidly. Banks wrote it while he - unknowingly - had terminal cancer, and was diagnosed after it was finished. He died shortly after its publication, but I always find it a really beautiful note to end on, even if the thematic linkages were unintentional.
Good luck, and watch out for the pairing of a Special Circumstances agent and an offensive Drone. Their appearance either heralds a very good day, or a very very bad one.
I love this whole comment chain so much. The Culture has long been my favourite book series as well as fictional universe, and I completely agree that Banks’ philosophy (and politics - he was a staunch socialist) comes through loud and clear, but doesn’t often get as much attention.
You missed Consider Phlebas in your list which is a great book and true space opera (I believe it was considered one of the most likely to be turned into a movie? Which I’m rather glad didn’t happen). I’m sure that was intentional, but just throwing it out there for any other readers.
Excession is probably my favourite book of the series, if only because I’m a sucker for the antics of the Minds and again, space opera.
I met Banks a couple of times and he was a true gent. Lovely, lovely man and the world - and our bookshelves - are lucky to have had him.
Side note, if anyone exhausts the Culture series and wants something that scratches a similar itch but in a very (very) different universe, consider the Warhammer 40k Eisenhorn series. They give me similar feels.
Great relevant username btw ;)
Pratchett was a humanist through and through, with a refreshingly pragmatic but empathetic view on death with dignity for terminal illnesses. His nonfiction essay anthology A Slip of the Keyboard is well worth reading.
Especially worth reading if you are an aspiring writer, but good regardless
An interesting article that compares Chesterton, Vonnegut, Adams and Pratchett
I have never read Chesterton and apart from seeing the Father Brown BBC series have had no interaction with him
Where would be a good place to start do you think (seeing as how the article and comments ask the same question)?
Here are a few options. Unlike Sir Terry, Chesterton was very Roman Catholic. (As seen in his Father Brown mysteries) Some of his books are actual attempts at Christian apologetics targeting his contemporaries. I am going from memory having read a fair amount of his work at a time when I was myself religious in my early 20s. I believe (but am not certain) that everything listed here is humourous fiction. It will also match Chesterton's philosophical and religious ideas but I remember him being funny.
. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/184419.The_Man_Who_Was_Thursday
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/174865.The_Collected_Works_of_G_K_Chesterton_Volume_07 The Ball and the Cross; Manalive; the Flying Inn
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/311372.The_Collected_Works_of_G_K_Chesterton_Volume_08 The Man Who Knew Too Much; Tales of the Long Bow; The Return of Don Quixote
Thank You. I will look to WOB for some books to peruse
Pratchett, Adams, Vonnegut, they're three of my all-time favorite authors for sure. But why feel the need to compare them? There may be some overlay in their Venn diagrams, but they're completely separate in my mind, and finding huge enjoyment in one certainly shouldn't detract you from the others. Not that I'm saying the author of the article is making that point, but I guess I just feel it's weird to even feel a need to compare them side by side?
Pratchett was fantasy fiction's Kurt Vonnegut? Nah, he's just Sir Terry Pratchett, an author beloved the world around for his amazing work.
I agree that it's fundamentally pointless, to try and line up these comparisons, but, on the other hand, Pratchett and Adams share a ton of similarities in style and demographics of readers. Like the article says, The Colour of Magic and the other first few books are very much straight pastiche, justifying the early "The Fantasy Hitchhiker's Guide!" response. A lot of people even confuse them with each other.
Hughes seems to be trying to at least critique the way that even the press will constantly bring up the other when one is the subject. The idea might be that if it can be demonstrated that two other authors, one held in high critical esteem for political and effective writing, and the other held in high regard for his contributions to furthering the accessibility of philosophy to laypeople, are as close to Pratchett as the cliched analog, we might stop using the cliche. Alternatively, they might be a little too hung up on general opinions of quality and fear that people are disrespecting Pratchett's thematic depth based on association.
I hear what you're saying, and I appreciate the reply. I guess I just don't do enough reading of articles like this, and am therefore unaware that so much time and ink has been devoted to comparing and contrasting these two (or three in this case).
I guess I would just rather spend the time reading another good book than to read other people's thoughts and comparisons on them? It certainly doesn't surprise me that this stuff is out there, it just seems to be slightly odd to me (it doesn't really accomplish much in the end, as far as tangible results at least). But hey, gotta love that there are infinite viewpoints out there, it certainly adds a spice of variety to the world!