I just came back to the US from a 2 week vacation in Europe, 5 days of which were spent in Paris. I really love that city. It would be great to live there one day.
I just came back to the US from a 2 week vacation in Europe, 5 days of which were spent in Paris. I really love that city. It would be great to live there one day.
I don't know if you're being serious, but bear in mind vacationing somewhere vs living there is veeeery different. Even Paris. Especially Paris. I've lived here for nearly 15 years (because I...
I don't know if you're being serious, but bear in mind vacationing somewhere vs living there is veeeery different. Even Paris. Especially Paris. I've lived here for nearly 15 years (because I don't have a choice). I can tell you everyone I know who moved here because they were enamoured with the city ran away screaming within a couple of years. Even though all places have their pros and cons, Paris is not for the faint of heart.
If that doesn't scare you and you still want to move here, I'm happy to give tips if you're looking for any!
I have no intention of ever moving to Europe or Paris, but I'd love to know why people ran away screaming :) Also, what tips you'd give? This kind of thing is always interesting to hear
I have no intention of ever moving to Europe or Paris, but I'd love to know why people ran away screaming :)
Also, what tips you'd give? This kind of thing is always interesting to hear
Seconded, I know Paris is particularly infamous for not meeting people's romanticized expectations but as someone who moved to a different European capital I'm curious whether those stories and...
Seconded, I know Paris is particularly infamous for not meeting people's romanticized expectations but as someone who moved to a different European capital I'm curious whether those stories and tips are similar or different to the ones I'd give.
It's a beautiful city no doubt, and it has a LOT of good things - once you get over the language learning curve, it becomes much more accessible. Having said that, it's the place I've liked living...
It's a beautiful city no doubt, and it has a LOT of good things - once you get over the language learning curve, it becomes much more accessible. Having said that, it's the place I've liked living the least, and I've lived in 7 different places. I think the most important thing is to come here without expectations, it's easier because then you're not disappointed.
Here's a few things I've observed that have "turned off" people who moved here. Please bear in mind this is based off of my own experiences and those shared with me by other foreigners living here. Other people may have had different experiences of course.
Someone once told me "In France, the customer is king. They executed their king." You have to -fight- for customer service, particularly when you run into a problem. It has gotten better over the years. For example, I don't find the rude waiter stereotype to be fair. They're not always warm and friendly, but they won't treat you like crap (well most won't anyway).
If you ever have to deal with the legal system here, good effing luck to you. Your whole house got robbed, you know exactly who did it, and you have evidence? Not the police's problem, they're too busy. Child abuse? Unless the kid is in the hospital covered in bruises or has broken bones, the perpetrators will not face justice (especially if they're a parent). You can be sued for defamation - even if what you say about the person or business is demonstrably true. Victim of sexual harassment or rape (minors included)? Yeah, don't even get me started...
You know how people from the USA complain frequently about HOAs? Well here, the vast majority of apartment buildings have an HOA. And almost all of them (what you call conseil syndical here) are composed of power hungry, petty a-holes who are more concerned with getting their way than thinking of what's best for the building. And I say that as the current HOA president of our building. You practically need to obtain a law degree to deal with all the bs.
If you ever need to buy/sell a place, or renovate/build/repair? You are more often than not going to run into someone who is trying to scam you. - Especially- if you are a woman or have a foreign accent. Oh but you're a woman with a foreign accent? You may as well have the words "scam me" tattooed on your forehead. Paying more for something won't guarantee you're getting a better service either. There is barely a more wretched hive of scum and villainy out there than the construction/real estate industry here.
If you don't speak French very fluently, you won't be fully accepted. Past a certain point, it's assimilate or die. For some people you'll be someone with whom to practice their English/other foreign language, which is fine, but won't help when you're trying to learn French. For others, who refuse to speak English either out of embarrassment or national pride, you're an annoyance. It's getting better with the younger generation, I'll give them that.
Related to the above, French people are not easy to make friends with, especially in Paris. The French friends I have became so either because my wife is French and I met them through her (and a lot of them lived abroad for a period too), or they're parents of my kids' friends. None of them are my close friends. I've not had this issue in other countries. Most foreigners I know here are the same, or make friends with other foreigners.
When you do get close enough to hang out, you will be a participant in the national sport - debate. People here love to argue, and sometimes these arguments get heated. The kind of arguments that would make you lose friends elsewhere. Except here it's the norm, and the next day you go on as if nothing happened.
When people ask me where I live, a few times for a laugh, I've said in the complaining capital of the world. Each time, without a single additional clue, people guessed Paris. It lives up to that reputation.
Want to work for a company that's "Franco-française"? Forget meritocracy. There's a stereotype that when you go to work expect your boss to insinuate every morning how you suck, just to motivate you to try harder. This is not a rare form of management.
I'm sure there's more, but that's what I could think of off the top of my head. If all that doesn't sound like enough of a deterrent, then Paris will be perfect for you!
Edit: forgot to add tips. I'll come back to this but now I have to make dinner!
Edit 2: I forgot a BIG one on that list. There's a general mentality among a lot of people here of "Pas vu, pas pris". Which roughly translates to - if you don't get caught when you're doing something wrong (even illegal), you're not doing something wrong. It is infuriating. Oh and that's coupled with being made to feel bad when you denouce someone, or people avoiding denouncing someone doing something illegal, what they call "délation", or not being a snitch basically. Apparently this has to do with the fact that Jewish people were given over to the Nazis during the Vichy regime, and it's a national embarrassment. So people get away with a lot of stuff they shouldn't here.
Ok now for some tips: First one should obvious - learn French. It will make your life so much easier. In fact it will be difficult to find a job if you don't speak French, unless the role requires...
Ok now for some tips:
First one should obvious - learn French. It will make your life so much easier. In fact it will be difficult to find a job if you don't speak French, unless the role requires an English native speaker (or other languages). If you want to find people to practice conversational French, look up the Polyglot Club. It's a sort of meetup group for people who want to do language exchange and they organise a lot of events.
Get a job -before- you move here. Finding a job is tough in general and the city is expensive. Other things will also be exponentially harder if you don't already have a job, like finding a place to stay. Working remotely for a company in a foreign country is very complicated (I'm inclined to say near impossible) due to French employment law. If that's something you want to do, find other people who did it and ask them how they did it.
If you're staying here for any length of time, get a subscription for the Velib city bikes and download the app. I recommend the subscription that lets you take the electric bikes. It costs about 10eur a month and lets you take 2 rides on the electric bikes up to 45mins for free (then 1eur per hour) (edit: 2 rides per day), and unlimited rides on the regular bikes for up to 1hr for free. The city has done a really good job creating more cycle paths. So much so that it's more often than not faster to get around by bike than car or public transport.
I'm not sure if it's still as complicated as it used to be, but if you open a bank account you need to prove your address, either with a phone/electrical/gas bill, or home insurance certificate. Only problem is, you need a bank account to pay for said bills, and some places the bills are in the landlord's name, so it's a chicken or egg situation. There's a way around this - when you open a bank account, ask someone to attest to you living at their place.
Finding housing here is hard, especially if you're a foreigner. You often need a full time contract, payslips for 3 months, and a garantor that is in France. Also there are often multiple people trying for the same apartment, so unless the landlord takes a liking to you or you have a stellar dossier, you're not likely to be the first pick. Start looking way ahead of the time, like a couple of months at least. I had luck finding places on Craigslist or Leboncoin but you need to know how to spot scams as there are many. You can go through an agency but many ask for the same documents and those that don't are often very expensive.
If you don't know anyone or want to make friends, look up groups on Meetup. There are quite a few expat groups on there which might be a good place to start if you don't speak French very well. People in those groups are often happy to give tips and advice as well.
This goes for tourists as well as foreigners moving here - people expect you to at least try speaking French. If you approach someone to ask for directions, apologise for not being able to speak French (ideally say that in French) and ask if they speak (insert your language). People resent being treated like a concierge service by tourists, which is where the French people being rude stereotype comes from.
Always take your chequebook when you go to the doctor. It's becoming less common but many still only take cash or cheque.
If you live in Paris proper, groceries are going to be very expensive, and you're unlikely to have a car. Get a granny shopping bag (the ones with wheels) and to hell with what people think about your fashion sense. There are farmer's markets in every arrondissement, if you go close to closing (usually around 2pm) they reduce prices to get rid of stuff that's left. Bear in mind though, almost all of the produce you buy in Paris comes from the same place (Rungis), so quality depends what the seller gets from there. Fresh fish is difficult to find and/or expensive. Sometimes it's better to shop around online and get delivery for boxed stuff and non-perishables. Compare prices for the big supermarkets like Leclerc or Auchan + delivery and it can be a huge difference from buying within Paris.
DO NOT get a car. It is expensive and a huge pain, especially for parking. Public transport is great and if you need a car for trips, Getaround works great.
There's much more but I expect that can help get some people started.
There's a few in your list that I thought "well, that's a lot of places" but this one in particular stood out. Most places I've been (excepting Korea) have had a general feeling that if the cops...
There's a general mentality among a lot of people here of "Pas vu, pas pris". Which roughly translates to - if you don't get caught when you're doing something wrong (even illegal), you're not doing something wrong.
There's a few in your list that I thought "well, that's a lot of places" but this one in particular stood out. Most places I've been (excepting Korea) have had a general feeling that if the cops aren't around, fuck it. The idea of saying "Well, there's rules for a reason" is tantamount to saying "I advocate for kicking puppies." Granted, once you get caught it's all heinous shame and pearl clutching well I nevers.
I don't think it has to do with Paris but selfish people will feel emboldened to act selfish when the whole world thinks they're selfish anyway.
It's not that I think these things don't happen in other places, but it's the cumulation of a lot of these things that breaks people. Also it's a matter of degree. For too many people here they...
It's not that I think these things don't happen in other places, but it's the cumulation of a lot of these things that breaks people. Also it's a matter of degree. For too many people here they are -proud- of getting away with things. And if they get caught there is no pearl clutching, they get downright angry and indignant. Like you are the one at fault for calling them out. Of course selfish people exist everywhere, but I've not been anywhere else where it's treated as if that behaviour is to be expected and you should shrug your shoulders and take it because that's just the way things are.
I was worried that the idea of reforming cities into more sustainable places would remain a niche idea, but having places as prestigious as Paris and Barcelona attached to walkable cities and...
I was worried that the idea of reforming cities into more sustainable places would remain a niche idea, but having places as prestigious as Paris and Barcelona attached to walkable cities and superblocks is giving me a lot of hope. I even think the culture war fight being picked will help the cause more than hurt, since the publicity only further mainstreams the previously unsung ideas.
I've been watching a YouTube channel called Edenicity recently, which has been very educational about the kind of policies we might need to adopt to keep the world ecology intact, and it's good to see the first steps of that urban reform process gaining a foothold like this.
Paris as improved so much over the last few years, it's now much nicer to visit than 10 years ago. Really impressive.
I just came back to the US from a 2 week vacation in Europe, 5 days of which were spent in Paris. I really love that city. It would be great to live there one day.
I don't know if you're being serious, but bear in mind vacationing somewhere vs living there is veeeery different. Even Paris. Especially Paris. I've lived here for nearly 15 years (because I don't have a choice). I can tell you everyone I know who moved here because they were enamoured with the city ran away screaming within a couple of years. Even though all places have their pros and cons, Paris is not for the faint of heart.
If that doesn't scare you and you still want to move here, I'm happy to give tips if you're looking for any!
I have no intention of ever moving to Europe or Paris, but I'd love to know why people ran away screaming :)
Also, what tips you'd give? This kind of thing is always interesting to hear
Seconded, I know Paris is particularly infamous for not meeting people's romanticized expectations but as someone who moved to a different European capital I'm curious whether those stories and tips are similar or different to the ones I'd give.
It's a beautiful city no doubt, and it has a LOT of good things - once you get over the language learning curve, it becomes much more accessible. Having said that, it's the place I've liked living the least, and I've lived in 7 different places. I think the most important thing is to come here without expectations, it's easier because then you're not disappointed.
Here's a few things I've observed that have "turned off" people who moved here. Please bear in mind this is based off of my own experiences and those shared with me by other foreigners living here. Other people may have had different experiences of course.
Someone once told me "In France, the customer is king. They executed their king." You have to -fight- for customer service, particularly when you run into a problem. It has gotten better over the years. For example, I don't find the rude waiter stereotype to be fair. They're not always warm and friendly, but they won't treat you like crap (well most won't anyway).
If you ever have to deal with the legal system here, good effing luck to you. Your whole house got robbed, you know exactly who did it, and you have evidence? Not the police's problem, they're too busy. Child abuse? Unless the kid is in the hospital covered in bruises or has broken bones, the perpetrators will not face justice (especially if they're a parent). You can be sued for defamation - even if what you say about the person or business is demonstrably true. Victim of sexual harassment or rape (minors included)? Yeah, don't even get me started...
You know how people from the USA complain frequently about HOAs? Well here, the vast majority of apartment buildings have an HOA. And almost all of them (what you call conseil syndical here) are composed of power hungry, petty a-holes who are more concerned with getting their way than thinking of what's best for the building. And I say that as the current HOA president of our building. You practically need to obtain a law degree to deal with all the bs.
If you ever need to buy/sell a place, or renovate/build/repair? You are more often than not going to run into someone who is trying to scam you. - Especially- if you are a woman or have a foreign accent. Oh but you're a woman with a foreign accent? You may as well have the words "scam me" tattooed on your forehead. Paying more for something won't guarantee you're getting a better service either. There is barely a more wretched hive of scum and villainy out there than the construction/real estate industry here.
If you don't speak French very fluently, you won't be fully accepted. Past a certain point, it's assimilate or die. For some people you'll be someone with whom to practice their English/other foreign language, which is fine, but won't help when you're trying to learn French. For others, who refuse to speak English either out of embarrassment or national pride, you're an annoyance. It's getting better with the younger generation, I'll give them that.
Related to the above, French people are not easy to make friends with, especially in Paris. The French friends I have became so either because my wife is French and I met them through her (and a lot of them lived abroad for a period too), or they're parents of my kids' friends. None of them are my close friends. I've not had this issue in other countries. Most foreigners I know here are the same, or make friends with other foreigners.
When you do get close enough to hang out, you will be a participant in the national sport - debate. People here love to argue, and sometimes these arguments get heated. The kind of arguments that would make you lose friends elsewhere. Except here it's the norm, and the next day you go on as if nothing happened.
When people ask me where I live, a few times for a laugh, I've said in the complaining capital of the world. Each time, without a single additional clue, people guessed Paris. It lives up to that reputation.
Want to work for a company that's "Franco-française"? Forget meritocracy. There's a stereotype that when you go to work expect your boss to insinuate every morning how you suck, just to motivate you to try harder. This is not a rare form of management.
I'm sure there's more, but that's what I could think of off the top of my head. If all that doesn't sound like enough of a deterrent, then Paris will be perfect for you!
Edit: forgot to add tips. I'll come back to this but now I have to make dinner!
Edit 2: I forgot a BIG one on that list. There's a general mentality among a lot of people here of "Pas vu, pas pris". Which roughly translates to - if you don't get caught when you're doing something wrong (even illegal), you're not doing something wrong. It is infuriating. Oh and that's coupled with being made to feel bad when you denouce someone, or people avoiding denouncing someone doing something illegal, what they call "délation", or not being a snitch basically. Apparently this has to do with the fact that Jewish people were given over to the Nazis during the Vichy regime, and it's a national embarrassment. So people get away with a lot of stuff they shouldn't here.
Ok now for some tips:
First one should obvious - learn French. It will make your life so much easier. In fact it will be difficult to find a job if you don't speak French, unless the role requires an English native speaker (or other languages). If you want to find people to practice conversational French, look up the Polyglot Club. It's a sort of meetup group for people who want to do language exchange and they organise a lot of events.
Get a job -before- you move here. Finding a job is tough in general and the city is expensive. Other things will also be exponentially harder if you don't already have a job, like finding a place to stay. Working remotely for a company in a foreign country is very complicated (I'm inclined to say near impossible) due to French employment law. If that's something you want to do, find other people who did it and ask them how they did it.
If you're staying here for any length of time, get a subscription for the Velib city bikes and download the app. I recommend the subscription that lets you take the electric bikes. It costs about 10eur a month and lets you take 2 rides on the electric bikes up to 45mins for free (then 1eur per hour) (edit: 2 rides per day), and unlimited rides on the regular bikes for up to 1hr for free. The city has done a really good job creating more cycle paths. So much so that it's more often than not faster to get around by bike than car or public transport.
I'm not sure if it's still as complicated as it used to be, but if you open a bank account you need to prove your address, either with a phone/electrical/gas bill, or home insurance certificate. Only problem is, you need a bank account to pay for said bills, and some places the bills are in the landlord's name, so it's a chicken or egg situation. There's a way around this - when you open a bank account, ask someone to attest to you living at their place.
Finding housing here is hard, especially if you're a foreigner. You often need a full time contract, payslips for 3 months, and a garantor that is in France. Also there are often multiple people trying for the same apartment, so unless the landlord takes a liking to you or you have a stellar dossier, you're not likely to be the first pick. Start looking way ahead of the time, like a couple of months at least. I had luck finding places on Craigslist or Leboncoin but you need to know how to spot scams as there are many. You can go through an agency but many ask for the same documents and those that don't are often very expensive.
If you don't know anyone or want to make friends, look up groups on Meetup. There are quite a few expat groups on there which might be a good place to start if you don't speak French very well. People in those groups are often happy to give tips and advice as well.
This goes for tourists as well as foreigners moving here - people expect you to at least try speaking French. If you approach someone to ask for directions, apologise for not being able to speak French (ideally say that in French) and ask if they speak (insert your language). People resent being treated like a concierge service by tourists, which is where the French people being rude stereotype comes from.
Always take your chequebook when you go to the doctor. It's becoming less common but many still only take cash or cheque.
If you live in Paris proper, groceries are going to be very expensive, and you're unlikely to have a car. Get a granny shopping bag (the ones with wheels) and to hell with what people think about your fashion sense. There are farmer's markets in every arrondissement, if you go close to closing (usually around 2pm) they reduce prices to get rid of stuff that's left. Bear in mind though, almost all of the produce you buy in Paris comes from the same place (Rungis), so quality depends what the seller gets from there. Fresh fish is difficult to find and/or expensive. Sometimes it's better to shop around online and get delivery for boxed stuff and non-perishables. Compare prices for the big supermarkets like Leclerc or Auchan + delivery and it can be a huge difference from buying within Paris.
DO NOT get a car. It is expensive and a huge pain, especially for parking. Public transport is great and if you need a car for trips, Getaround works great.
There's much more but I expect that can help get some people started.
This was a fascinating read, thank you for sharing!
There's a few in your list that I thought "well, that's a lot of places" but this one in particular stood out. Most places I've been (excepting Korea) have had a general feeling that if the cops aren't around, fuck it. The idea of saying "Well, there's rules for a reason" is tantamount to saying "I advocate for kicking puppies." Granted, once you get caught it's all heinous shame and pearl clutching well I nevers.
I don't think it has to do with Paris but selfish people will feel emboldened to act selfish when the whole world thinks they're selfish anyway.
It's not that I think these things don't happen in other places, but it's the cumulation of a lot of these things that breaks people. Also it's a matter of degree. For too many people here they are -proud- of getting away with things. And if they get caught there is no pearl clutching, they get downright angry and indignant. Like you are the one at fault for calling them out. Of course selfish people exist everywhere, but I've not been anywhere else where it's treated as if that behaviour is to be expected and you should shrug your shoulders and take it because that's just the way things are.
I was worried that the idea of reforming cities into more sustainable places would remain a niche idea, but having places as prestigious as Paris and Barcelona attached to walkable cities and superblocks is giving me a lot of hope. I even think the culture war fight being picked will help the cause more than hurt, since the publicity only further mainstreams the previously unsung ideas.
I've been watching a YouTube channel called Edenicity recently, which has been very educational about the kind of policies we might need to adopt to keep the world ecology intact, and it's good to see the first steps of that urban reform process gaining a foothold like this.