25 votes

‘We’ve lost the art of city building’: can the planner behind a tech-funded metropolis win over the skeptics?

10 comments

  1. [6]
    EgoEimi
    Link
    Metcalf is right. My God we need this. Right now we build areas like this neighborhood of Vallejo and Concord and Antioch and Fremont — these featureless suburban hellscapes where everything is...
    • Exemplary

    Metcalf is right. My God we need this.

    Right now we build areas like this neighborhood of Vallejo and Concord and Antioch and Fremont — these featureless suburban hellscapes where everything is separated by 8-lane mini highways and houses are separated by 4-lane roads and the "town square" that anchors everything is a Costco.

    No one walks outside; the pavement expanses are devoid of human life; giant roving death machines dominate public space like Terminators.

    The entire Bay Area outside of San Francisco except Emeryville (<3 John Bauters), Berkeley, and a few other quaint or super wealthy pockets is just like this. And the sprawl keeps metastasizing.

    This project can show people that there an alternative that is neither city nor suburb. If it succeeds, it can show large developers and cities that there's demand for this kind of urbanism in the Bay Area.


    And it fails... well, it's not like it's going to ruin that land. Costco-centric suburban sprawl would turn that farmland into something like this in a few years anyway.

    16 votes
    1. [5]
      arch
      Link Parent
      My concerns aren't really about what they want to do. My concerns are who wants to do it, how they are doing it, and why they are doing it (and I don't yet believe their media spin on why). Should...

      My concerns aren't really about what they want to do. My concerns are who wants to do it, how they are doing it, and why they are doing it (and I don't yet believe their media spin on why). Should we only be able to have reasonable cities at the behest of billionaires and multimillionaires? Should we allow them to start over in a new location instead of them investing to fix existing infrastructure, zoning, and city planning in existing populated areas? What is the plan to bring water, sewer, sewage treatment, electricity, internet, emergency services, educational services, and any other necessities to this area? Are they even going to have sewer, or are they going to allow everyone to have septic and leach field, creating another issue for future generations to clean up? Where will the water needs for the city be taken from?

      My knee jerk reaction to all of these stories is that some unhealthily wealthy person wants to play City Skylines with even more realistic graphics.

      12 votes
      1. EgoEimi
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        It's mentioned in other threads that fixing existing areas is politically impossible. In San Francisco, landowning interests and activists vigorously block development, which is why the city...

        It's mentioned in other threads that fixing existing areas is politically impossible. In San Francisco, landowning interests and activists vigorously block development, which is why the city appears virtually unchanged since the 90s.

        Should we only be able to have reasonable cities at the behest of billionaires and multimillionaires?

        No other entities have the resources and coordination to pull it off.

        Non-profits?

        Non-profits don't have the resources or expertise. They often misallocate resources. As an extreme example: the non-profit Tenderloin Neighborhood Development Corporation, in its mission for "housing justice", is building an affordable housing complex that will cost an avg of $1.17 million per unit at a total of $166 million.

        The TNDC could realistically put all that money into index funds with annualized 10.7% return rates and give those low-income households $125,190 of free money annually to go enjoy work-free upper-middle class lifestyles in a LCOL area forever and ever. No one at TNDC seems to recognize how extremely perverse this misallocation is.

        Anyway, the average cost to build a below market rate housing unit in SF is $737,417 (2019 stats). One could put that money in index funds and give those low-income families $78,900 of free money every year forever and ever to do whatever with.

        In brief mentioning, activists and community organizers are too busy blocking individual development projects. They have nowhere near the organizational capacity to pull off a major urban project.

        The state?

        The state shown shown itself to be completely incapable of producing and executing on vision.

        The California High Speed Rail project has shown how bureaucracy and corruption can disrupt and distort large state projects. The NYT did a good exposé on how politics derailed the project.

        The aim of the rail is to lower carbon emissions caused by people flying between SF and LA by offering a fast, direct train connection between these two major hubs. Political compromises meant that the project started in the middle of the agricultural heartland working outwards, resulting in a weird suboptimal route.

        The rail authority said it has accelerated the pace of construction on the starter system, but at the current spending rate of $1.8 million a day, according to projections widely used by engineers and project managers, the train could not be completed in this century.

        The goal in California in 2008 was to carry passengers between Los Angeles and San Francisco in 2 hours 40 minutes, putting it among the fastest trains in the world in average speed.

        The desert route “sacrificed travel time and increased the costs,” and opened the door to “a whole series of problems” that have become only clearer as time has gone on, he said. “They betrayed the public with this project.”

        The rail route “was not based on technical and financial criteria,” Mr. Ikhrata said.

        Proponents of running the rail through the booming cities of Bakersfield, Fresno and Merced cited a lot of arguments: The Central Valley needed jobs. It would be an ideal location to test equipment. It would be the easiest place to build, because it was mostly open farmland.

        State senators were under pressure to endorse the Central Valley plan, not only from Gov. Jerry Brown but also from President Barack Obama’s transportation secretary, Ray LaHood, who came to the state Capitol to lobby the vote.

        The Central Valley quickly became a quagmire. The need for land has quadrupled to more than 2,000 parcels, the largest land take in modern state history, and is still not complete. In many cases, the seizures have involved bitter litigation against well-resourced farmers, whose fields were being split diagonally.


        There are no other entities that can pull this off besides the wealthy and powerful, who historically have always been the instigators of grand urban projects.

        11 votes
      2. [3]
        ackables
        Link Parent
        They actually are setting aside $200 million to revitalize the downtowns of the existing cities in Solano County initially. If the new city grows, they will invest more money into existing...

        They actually are setting aside $200 million to revitalize the downtowns of the existing cities in Solano County initially. If the new city grows, they will invest more money into existing downtowns in the county. They are also 100% funding the construction of new schools to educate the new residents and integrating the new schools into the greater school district so anyone can attend.

        I never understood the argument about cities using too much water. Urban water use accounts for only 10% of the water used in California. New cities do not cause droughts. With the construction of a brand new city, they can create a community that is more water efficient than existing cities. Las Vegas recycles 99.9% of water that is used indoors back into Lake Mead. The new city can at least match that and filter all waste water before releasing it back into the Sacramento River.

        Maybe this experiment may turn out to be a mistake, but we have been doing the same thing for 80 years in California. If this works, it can be a model for new development in the state, or even a model to strive for when rebuilding existing communities.

        2 votes
        1. [2]
          Akir
          Link Parent
          Questions of water usage are rarely simple. Yes, most of the water in California is being used for agriculture, and California makes more than enough food for the state and exports a large amount...

          Questions of water usage are rarely simple. Yes, most of the water in California is being used for agriculture, and California makes more than enough food for the state and exports a large amount of it to the rest of the country and even overseas. But it's precisely because California produces so much agricultural product that water becomes an issue. Would you pay an additional 20% for your avocados because someone wanted to live in an arbitrary location? Or would you like macaroons to become an extremely expensive luxury food because the almonds used to make them have shot up in price? But even these examples are too simple, because agricultural producers have traditionally made their workflows based on the assumption of plentiful cheap potable water with very little restrictions.

          I suppose my greatest criticism of this project is that it's not really about "rebuilding"; it's about building new stuff but with promises of improving the stuff that's already there. When it comes to rebuilding cities and neighborhoods, there are quite simply no easy answers, and certainly none that will satisfy everyone. And this answer seems to be tilted towards the rich.

          3 votes
          1. ackables
            Link Parent
            I don't doubt that this city will greatly benefit its investors, but that doesn't mean this is just a cash grab. The investors are obviously in it for the money, but Jan Sramek, the founder of...

            I don't doubt that this city will greatly benefit its investors, but that doesn't mean this is just a cash grab. The investors are obviously in it for the money, but Jan Sramek, the founder of California Forever, has a vision for building a community differently. Their November 2024 includes legally binding guarantees given it passes.

            California desperately needs housing. Right now, even derelict homes in the Bay Area go for close to a million dollars. Preventing development because the resulting units will be "for rich people" is the reason there isn't enough housing. If rich people can live in nice new homes, the existing homes are freed up for other people. Eventually, extra stock will force prices down to what regular people can afford.

            The reason the nice walkable areas tend to be "for the rich" is that they are nice places to live that don't get built anymore. If every area was a nice walkable area, it would be for everyone.

            Agricultural water use in California is incredibly inefficient. The water rights were handed out over a hundred years ago based on the available water in an unusually wet year for that period. Holders of the water rights can lose their water rights if they do not use it. This incentivizes farmers to use their entire water allocation even if it's wasteful. California needs to reform its water rights system to reward surface water conservation, regulate ground water pumping, and incentivize more water trading on an open market.

            Like I said before, Las Vegas returns 99.9% of water used indoors back to Lake Mead. If a city is built to be walkable, there won't be vast lawns that waste limited water resources. California Forever is committed to protecting existing greenspaces and creating shared greenspace in the city, vastly reducing the amount of urban water use that is not recoverable.

            6 votes
  2. [3]
    JRandomHacker
    Link
    The whole California Forever story is fascinating to me because of the contrast between their stated goals (new city with a focus on walkability, mass transit, affordable housing, etc) and the...

    The whole California Forever story is fascinating to me because of the contrast between their stated goals (new city with a focus on walkability, mass transit, affordable housing, etc) and the admittedly sketchy-sounding process and backing. I don't want to dismiss a worthy effort because of the people behind it, but I also don't want to, I don't know, "play into their hands"? I guess I just wait and see.

    18 votes
    1. rosco
      Link Parent
      I feel like this is proposed every so often and every time I want to scream "just invest in and restore urban centers that are already zoned and prepped for it"! We have so many domestic cities...

      I feel like this is proposed every so often and every time I want to scream "just invest in and restore urban centers that are already zoned and prepped for it"! We have so many domestic cities that could use this kind of innovative thinking - Detroit, Cleveland, St Louis - but it's always starting from scratch. I get it's cheaper/easier to start over than fix an issue, but we have so many examples of great, revitalized cities. I would love to see that!

      8 votes
    2. ignorabimus
      Link Parent
      I think this tension is really funny (I'm weird) and I can't wait to see how this plays out.

      I think this tension is really funny (I'm weird) and I can't wait to see how this plays out.

      4 votes
  3. AugustusFerdinand
    Link
    Previous discussions: The Silicon Valley elite who want to build a city from scratch: https://tild.es/19rg Tech billionaires launch California ‘utopia’ website: https://tild.es/19zp Billionaire...

    Previous discussions:
    The Silicon Valley elite who want to build a city from scratch: https://tild.es/19rg
    Tech billionaires launch California ‘utopia’ website: https://tild.es/19zp
    Billionaire backers of new California city seek voter approval after stealthily snapping up farmland: https://tild.es/1dm1
    The farmers had what the billionaires wanted: https://tild.es/1dp2

    10 votes