26 votes

Léna Lazare is the new face of climate activism—and she's carrying a pickax

16 comments

  1. [5]
    Gaywallet
    Link
    I'm sure many will here will disagree but I'm happy to see more radical wings of progressive movements take violent action against corporations and governments which cause harm without directing...

    I'm sure many will here will disagree but I'm happy to see more radical wings of progressive movements take violent action against corporations and governments which cause harm without directing physical violence towards people, but instead aimed at property and profit. The literature seems to suggest that peaceful protests are best for mobilizing supporters who share ideals, and that radical/violent protests are best for creating systemic change in the face of a resistant opposition. In the case of climate change, where the issue is small contingents of people exercising violence on a broad scale (in this case a real, physical violence, albeit indirect in nature), there needs to be a violent resistance otherwise they simply will continue doing what they are already doing. To be clear, when I use the word violence here, I am using it in a broad sense - I consider a strike a form of violence, in this case directed at the means of generating profit or violence against wealth/resources and I do not necessarily mean physical violence directed towards humans. In general I am against physical violence directed at humans except as a means of self-defense.

    31 votes
    1. [3]
      pocketry
      Link Parent
      I get what you're saying and that using the term violence here can be misleading. How do you feel about destruction instead?

      I get what you're saying and that using the term violence here can be misleading. How do you feel about destruction instead?

      there needs to be a violent destructive resistance otherwise they simply will continue doing what they are already doing.

      11 votes
      1. Gaywallet
        Link Parent
        I disagree with the restriction of the word violence to only one of its many definitions. You are welcome to substitute destruction if you wish, but I think it is important to call out all the...

        I disagree with the restriction of the word violence to only one of its many definitions. You are welcome to substitute destruction if you wish, but I think it is important to call out all the different forms of violence which exist in the world. To pose a counter-point, do you consider the actions of for-profit corporations and governments which destroy the environment are enacting destruction or violence on the world? What if I were to ask you about whether this inflicted violence on individuals which do not have the means to escape the dangerous outcomes they are causing? When more folks die of a heat stroke each year, is that violence or destruction?

        I believe most people like to draw very strong lines in the sand here because they have strong feelings about hurting humans directly. I think this is an important distinction to make. But I also think that people draw the lines in ways which often obscure the violence born of 'destructive' action. This allows people to excuse what I consider violent behavior, such as the erasing of human rights, the creation of environments which are hostile, dangerous, or even life-threatening and violent towards humans that currently exist on this planet. The only way which makes sense to me to frame this appropriately is to highlight the kinds of violence that these corporations and governments are enacting on humanity more broadly, which necessitates using broader definitions of violence such as legal definitions (unlawful exercise of physical force) or other more simple definitions (the direction of harm) and to always highlight a particular disgust with human-directed violence born of anything but self-defense. I also think this model is important to highlight because it allows for affected individuals who are systematically oppressed to defend themselves against this violence which is so often erased with wordsmithing.

        15 votes
      2. daywalker
        Link Parent
        Euphemisms in politics are only useful if you're trying to conceal what you're actually doing. The reason for concealment is almost always because one is trying to avoid legal ramifications, or if...

        Euphemisms in politics are only useful if you're trying to conceal what you're actually doing. The reason for concealment is almost always because one is trying to avoid legal ramifications, or if they're dishonest about their intentions.

        I'm not saying to write off euphemisms in every context, but in this context they would hinder more than help. What the radical wing is trying to do is a) sabotage b) establish the legitimacy of a radical and violent response against the climate status quo.

        In other words, owning the legitimacy of violence is a key point in shifting the perceptions about this matter. This won't work for everybody, but it will speak to people who have had enough, the very people you are trying to reach. Unashamedly owning violence is the optimal way to go about it. It's basically declaring a big fuck you to the status quo, signalling that you don't even care to pretend to care.

        This doesn't mean radicals have to legitimize every kind of violence. But for this way to work, they would benefit from not mincing words about what kind of violence they espouse. Using euphemisms seems half-hearted, indirect, and not radical enough. It undercuts the heart of radicalism.

        This is, of course, assuming you can afford to bear the burden of legal ramifications. If you're facing too much oppression, as a certain character put it, "theatricality and deception are powerful agents."

        8 votes
    2. supergauntlet
      Link Parent
      We are all Children of Kali on this blessed day.

      We are all Children of Kali on this blessed day.

      5 votes
  2. [6]
    daywalker
    (edited )
    Link
    I generally agree on the necessity of radical means of climate activism, and kudos to her for doing that. This is an important development. But I have to admit, I'm a bit put off by the Vogue...

    I generally agree on the necessity of radical means of climate activism, and kudos to her for doing that. This is an important development. But I have to admit, I'm a bit put off by the Vogue style photoshoots. For me, rather than giving the movement a legitimate face, it gave off a feeling of seeking personal attention.

    I'm not saying this was her intention. She's clearly trying to do something new (putting a public face to sabotage), and there's a lot of experimenting going on with such stuff, so that should be kept in mind while commenting. Also I'm not saying my reaction is how others would perceive this, especially considering how much variance about this stuff there is among cultures. But I think the article would be more effective if it focused more on photos shot on the scene. Those kind of photos humanize the person and the movement, without making it look like about personal glory.

    Another criticism I have of the article is that it gives too much emphasis to the personality and story of Léna Lazare and not her ideas, and the ideas of the movement in general. They mention How to Blow Up A Pipeline, for example, but extremely briefly. Having read the book and written posts & comments about it, I'd say it would have been better if they were to report on its content more. Her mode of action fits almost perfectly to what's espoused in the book.

    If anyone's interested, here are some things I wrote either inspired by or directly sourced from its contents: 1, 2

    Having said all this, I want to emphasize that these are strategic criticisms and shouldn't be taken to delegitimize her. If the reports are accurate, she and the others are doing good work and should be commended. I just want to point out that media, even when seemingly being on your side, can warp your message to make it more "fashionable and marketable".

    15 votes
    1. [5]
      sparksbet
      Link Parent
      This seems like the kind of criticism that a man in the same position would not get.

      For me, rather than giving the movement a legitimate face, it gave off a feeling of seeking personal attention.

      This seems like the kind of criticism that a man in the same position would not get.

      5 votes
      1. [4]
        daywalker
        Link Parent
        I took that into consideration before commenting, and thought about whether I was reacting based on some unfaced sexism. It's a fair criticism, because nobody is immune to stuff like this, and I...

        I took that into consideration before commenting, and thought about whether I was reacting based on some unfaced sexism. It's a fair criticism, because nobody is immune to stuff like this, and I had some internal questioning before commenting. My decision was that, no, I'd react the same regardless of gender.

        My dislike of the photos is based on the oversaturated "model photoshoot" vibes it gives. If a man was to get a similar photoshoot, I think I'd react the same. Furthermore, if you combine this with my endorsement of her, criticism about the article's overfocus on the personal story of Lazare rather than her ideas, and the last part of my comment about how media might be turning her struggle into a more "marketable" buzz, you'd see that I'm not trying to criticize her as a person but I'm trying to warn about how media markets causes and in the process hurts them.

        But again, I want to emphasize, this was based on my reaction on it. Time might prove me wrong and it could turn out that such photos do more good than harm. Especially, again, if you consider how much cultural differences there are in reacting to this stuff.

        Furthermore, even if she did want some cool photoshoots, I would hardly blame her for such a human thing. Especially considering she's 26 years old. In those ages I did much more questionable things, and I certainly did not lead a radical struggle against the powers-that-be. So, even if it's the case that her motive was to get a glamorous photoshoot, my point isn't that it's a "sin", but it's a criticism about the optics.

        My only wish is for people reading this to remember I'm trying to approach this topic from a place of as much as good faith I could muster, because I know how online discussions can turn into a cycle of counter-productive criticisms that focus on stupid stuff, making the slacktivists appear to have the moral highground while harming actual people of action. There's also the dimension of checking yourself to consider whether you're acting on some internalized conservatism. I don't think that's the case, but there might always be biases at play I'm unaware of, as is the case for everybody, but the same goes for you too. Assuming any criticism of a woman in a context like this should come from a place of sexism is a bias too.

        I mean, I imagine it to be true in most cases, I don't think this needs even proving because a brief look at the internet very much shows that to be the case. But it's still a bias if it overgeneralizes, and it's especially a bias if it doesn't leave room for any other explanation, making it unfalsifiable.

        I'm not saying you necessarily have an opinion this extreme. After all, you made a one-sentence comment. It's very hard to ascertain where you are exactly coming from. But I wanted to cover every ground from the start.

        8 votes
        1. [3]
          sparksbet
          Link Parent
          I definitely don't want to accuse you of approaching this in bad faith -- I don't think you are. But I do think it's worth considering that your gut reaction can be influenced by sexism simply due...

          I definitely don't want to accuse you of approaching this in bad faith -- I don't think you are. But I do think it's worth considering that your gut reaction can be influenced by sexism simply due to living and growing up in a sexist world. You live in a world in which women are scrutinized for how they present themselves to a greater degree than men. Maybe it's true that you'd criticize a man in the same position -- but it may also be true that doing so wouldn't have occurred to you. That's not necessarily something to hold against you individually, but it still can play a role in the aggregate pattern.

          I don't think the existence of bias against women in terms of image and how they present themselves is unfalsifiable, and I think it's unfair to accuse me of sexism based on the idea that it is. When there are patterns of sexism (or racism or homophobia or transphobia or whatever else) in society, it's worth examining when we say or think things that might play into or be influenced by those things, even if that wasn't our intent. If your ultimate conclusion is that it wasn't sexist, that's fine (you could argue that your criticisms are actually of unconscious sexism on the part of the article writers in how they chose to frame her story). But I think being mindful of the possibility is much more important than you're giving it credit for.

          3 votes
          1. [2]
            daywalker
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            Thanks for the reasonable response. Rather than trying to accuse you of sexism, I was trying to point out that if you were overgeneralizing that's a bias too. By bias I mean deviations from...

            Thanks for the reasonable response.

            Rather than trying to accuse you of sexism, I was trying to point out that if you were overgeneralizing that's a bias too. By bias I mean deviations from reality because of skewed perceptions or expectations. I don't attribute an intrinsic ethical judgement to the word bias, as I approach it from an epistemological place.

            I'm also not saying any discussion around this has to come from a place of bias. As I recognized in my response, most of the time it's true that such criticisms come from a place of sexism against women, but not all the time. As I've said, it was really hard to ascertain what your opinion was exactly, because it was a single sentence comment. I definitely have sympathy for where you're coming from, but the initial comment was accusatory, which I couldn't properly reply to without going into detail and pointing out potential biases at play. I wouldn't have done this if the initial comment wasn't accusatory but instead framed in a different way.

            1. sparksbet
              Link Parent
              I deliberately framed my comment in a way that didn't directly accuse you of anything (addressing the criticism itself seeming of the type that would be applied in a gender biased way), so I'll...

              I deliberately framed my comment in a way that didn't directly accuse you of anything (addressing the criticism itself seeming of the type that would be applied in a gender biased way), so I'll confess I'm not sure how I could have been less accusatory than I was without watering down the actual content of what I wanted to say.

  3. [5]
    cykhic
    Link
    Is it just me who is somewhat alarmed at the rather casual attitude toward violence in this article? To be clear, I am on the same "side" as she is, to the extent that I think climate change is an...
    • Exemplary

    Is it just me who is somewhat alarmed at the rather casual attitude toward violence in this article?

    To be clear, I am on the same "side" as she is, to the extent that I think climate change is an issue that 1) needs addressing and 2) is currently under-addressed.

    Lazare (and presumably the rest of the Les Soulevements organisation) seem to believe that they are entirely in the right to perform sabotage / cause property damage:

    “We refuse to be labeled as criminals,” she says. After French interior minister Gérald Darmanin compared some members of Les Soulèvements de la Terre to ecoterrorists and the government outlawed the organization in June 2023, it was Lazare who went on TV to defend the group’s activities.

    But the scale and nature of their activities seem very extreme to me, although that's perhaps me coming from a part of the world which is orderly and has a strong rule of law. (In particular I am not from France or the USA.) For instance:

    In March 2023, Lazare helped organize a second protest [...] At least 6,000 protesters were met by some 3,000 French gendarmes [...] attempted to push through the cordon, trying to reach and sabotage the site [...] more than 200 people were injured. Two people were left in a coma. Organizers claim someone lost an eye. Police say 47 officers were hurt and four vehicles burned. [...] Lazare says a small minority of protesters threw Molotov cocktails.

    I worry that there seems to be a strong "hero/martyr" narrative around Lazare in this story. However I think it is all too easy for any person to believe that violence is justified in service of a cause that the person believes in.

    Imagine for a moment that the violence described in the article was in service of a cause that is "wrong". For instance, what if instead of writing about Lazare digging up a water pipeline, the article wrote about about some religious group self-righteously cutting the power cables of an abortion clinic? Or perhaps setting fire to a solar panel factory, after working hours so that no person is hurt?

    I don't see a way to condemn the latter acts of violence in a democratic society without also condemning violence in service of causes that I believe in.

    Perhaps I'm privileged to be able to say so. But I think that resorting to violence, or glorifying violence (even restricted to property, and in service of a (subjectively) worthy cause) is not compatible with civil society. It is a unilateral imposition of the beliefs of a subset of the population unto the remainder. And while in this case my beliefs are aligned, there is no such guarantee in general.

    For instance, I believe with medium confidence that nuclear power is a good way of reducing emissions. But:

    In 1975, two homemade bombs exploded in a yet-to-be opened French nuclear power station, delaying its construction by several months.

    Who gave the bombers the right to decide for everyone that nuclear power is bad? Are we saying that executive power derives from the ability to construct and deploy IEDs?

    I'm not sure that I would want to live in such a society.

    I realise at this point that I'm echoing a few points from an essay I read long ago, touching on a somewhat related topic, so I'll close with a link to it. In Favor Of Niceness, Community And Civilization

    9 votes
    1. hungariantoast
      Link Parent
      Well, if you subscribe to the Weberian philosophy that what gives a state power and legitimacy is its monopoly on violence: Then the state must condemn and punish all acts of violence that it does...
      • Exemplary

      I don't see a way to condemn the latter acts of violence in a democratic society without also condemning violence in service of causes that I believe in.

      Well, if you subscribe to the Weberian philosophy that what gives a state power and legitimacy is its monopoly on violence:

      Then the state must condemn and punish all acts of violence that it does not perpetrate itself, lest the state lose its monopoly on violence and thus its power, legitimacy, and control over the nation.

      Of course, in a democracy, what constitutes "the state" is really just an institution (or a bunch of institutions) made of an ever-changing crowd of people.

      The key to victory for non-state violent actors, such as Les Soulèvements de la Terre, is to convince enough institutions or people to either:

      • Support their non-state violence so overwhelmingly that Les Soulèvements de la Terre begins to inherit the state's monopoly on violence. This is actually pretty common in history. Lots of violent rebel groups, as part of peace deals with their states, became legitimate parties of government, and thus a formal part of the state. FARC, for example. (Whether this is a realistic outcome in France or not, is another matter.)
      • Preempt their non-state violence by offering them concessions (such as ceasing the construction of mega-basins).

      So here's the rub:

      You are not the state.

      That means you are not required to support or uphold the state's monopoly on violence. That could mean you oppose violence in all of its forms, or it could mean you support another group's right to violence over any other's (including the state's).

      You, as a citizen of your nation, have every right to say that Les Soulèvements de la Terre's violence is just and should not be punished, that their demands should be met, etc. Your support for Les Soulèvements de la Terre's non-state violence in no way requires you to support the violent acts of any other entity, including the state itself.

      You get to pick and choose, based on the background context of violent actions, whether you support them or not.

      You get to pick and choose what acts of violence, and what reasons behind them, you support. That could mean you support the state's right to violence against violent groups that you disagree with. You could also simultaneously support a non-state group's acts of violence, and condemn the state's violence against them.

      For example, you might support the UK government's suppression of the recent fascist riots in their country, while simultaneously condemning the UK government's violence against trans people.

      As I explained in another comment of mine recently, this does not make you a hypocrite. It makes you principled.


      https://tildes.net/~news/1gz4/texas_secessionists_win_gop_backing_for_independence_vote_major_step#comment-cz4v

      You don't have to universally support or oppose any and every secessionist (or "self-determination") movement. You absolutely can pick and choose which movements you support based on why those movements want to secede or how they plan to secede.

      Some county in eastern Washington wants to join Idaho because Washington passed strict gun control legislation? They can go fuck themselves.

      El Paso County wants to secede from Texas and join New Mexico so they can re-instate abortion rights? Very cool, let's get it done.

      You don't have to support every secessionist movement equally. You can pick and choose. That does not make you a hypocrite, it makes you principled.


      Pretty much everyone already has nuanced views on violence, they just might not recognize it in themselves.

      For example, you probably support certain forms of state violence, such as police officers forcibly detaining a mass murderer. However, I'm sure you also oppose certain forms of state violence, such as the police surrounding and beating peaceful protestors. The vast majority of people already pick and choose what forms of violence they support.

      I do think however, most people are conditioned (by their state) to only support some acts of state violence, and absolutely no acts of violence from non-state actors. Of course, this conditioning isn't some grand conspiracy, it's just the logical conclusion of growing up within the state.

      You already have nuanced views about what forms of violence you support. Supporting Les Soulèvements de la Terre's non-state violence is not inherently undemocratic or hypocritical.

      21 votes
    2. Grayscail
      Link Parent
      I think this is a big mental trap that people can fall into with all sorts of big activist movements. If youre fighting against some big thing like climate change or capitalism or something like...

      I think this is a big mental trap that people can fall into with all sorts of big activist movements.

      If youre fighting against some big thing like climate change or capitalism or something like that, youre fighting for something that will have world changing consequences. So if you think you are on the right side of whatever issue youve chosen, youre kind of saving the world.

      Some massive good like fixing the whole world is enough of a net good to justify all kinds of minor transgressions in service of that good.

      Furthermore, when you are acting as a part of a big movement like that, theres really no such thing as failure. Maybe you do a certain protest, do some certain action, and it doesnt immediately stop climate change. Maybe you don't really affect anything at all in the long run. But that doesnt mean youve failed, because its all contributing to the movement.

      If you stopped at some given point in time and tried to do some ethical accounting of all your actions, it might add up to you having done more harm than good in the world. But if at some point in the future climate change gets addressed, you can claim credit for having contributed to that, if in a roundabout way.

      This creates a moral framework where you can absolve yourself of all accountability by just cloaking yourself in enough layers of sanctimony and self righteousness, as long as you are willing to commit hard enough to the idea that everyrhing you are doing is for a greater good.

      9 votes
    3. [2]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. GenuinelyCrooked
        Link Parent
        The status quo is violence. People are dying due to climate change. By your own argument, you've made violence permissable. Your quibble, though, is not with the targets, it's with the...

        The status quo is violence. People are dying due to climate change. By your own argument, you've made violence permissable. Your quibble, though, is not with the targets, it's with the perpetrators. As long as they're holding keyboards and clip boards instead of pickaxes, it's permissible, even if the pickaxes don't kill anyone and the clipboards kill thousands.

        You say ecoterrorists belong in prison, I say petrobillionaires do.

        4 votes
    4. GenuinelyCrooked
      Link Parent
      I think this overlooks the fact that corporations contributing to climate change are doing violence to people. It's indirect and cloaked in layers of paperwork, but people are still dying. If we...

      I think this overlooks the fact that corporations contributing to climate change are doing violence to people. It's indirect and cloaked in layers of paperwork, but people are still dying. If we agree as a democracy that it's fine to commit that violence against those people, are they stripped of their right to self-defense?

      Often in cases of self-defense, there's a duty to flee. In this case, that can't be imposed. Flee to where? Microplastics are at the bottom of the ocean and the whole planet is cooking. There's a duty to do the least possible harm to immobilize your attacker. The Soulèvements certainly haven't bypassed that point yet.

      5 votes