Is the implication here that he thinks most middle income Americans don't pay their taxes?
Grover Norquist, who heads the conservative Americans for Tax Reform, said the IRS’ plan to pursue high wealth individuals does not preclude the IRS from eventually pursuing middle-income Americans for audits down the road.
Is the implication here that he thinks most middle income Americans don't pay their taxes?
No just a scare tactic conservatives love to use. That the government is coming for your money and freedom if we allow them to go after the rich. You're next!
No just a scare tactic conservatives love to use. That the government is coming for your money and freedom if we allow them to go after the rich. You're next!
Now now, we all know that the ultra-wealthy are the defenders of workers rights and the correct distribution of wealth! I do hate how perverse the ultra-wealthy are with these remarks. I know...
Now now, we all know that the ultra-wealthy are the defenders of workers rights and the correct distribution of wealth!
I do hate how perverse the ultra-wealthy are with these remarks. I know they're self-serving, I know they're selfish. But my God, the sheer audacity and shamelessness you must have to say things like this with a straight face.
It makes a lot more sense as a scare tactic when you consider how wide of a swath of Americans consider themselves “middle income” (which is an interesting discussion all to itself). This is how...
It makes a lot more sense as a scare tactic when you consider how wide of a swath of Americans consider themselves “middle income” (which is an interesting discussion all to itself). This is how you get people making $35k defending people making $35B.
Middle income is ~$100k a household, and most households are dual income. So a range of like $45k to like $150k I could see being called middle-income. If you're under $45k you're definitely...
Middle income is ~$100k a household, and most households are dual income.
So a range of like $45k to like $150k I could see being called middle-income.
If you're under $45k you're definitely lower, and if you're over $150k you're upper, doubly so if single.
I get how CoL will still swing that. Another good marker is hired help. If you're hiring cleaners and lawncare, you're upper-middle at a minimum.
To me, it seems more like the kind of empathyless behaviour that the ultra wealthy very often have towards those they consider poorer than them. They don't have any empathy/ability to see things...
No just a scare tactic conservatives love to use
To me, it seems more like the kind of empathyless behaviour that the ultra wealthy very often have towards those they consider poorer than them.
They don't have any empathy/ability to see things from a very different perspective, despite often having a lot of sympathy/compassion.
The result is that they will cry when seeing poor people, but won't do anything at all to help the situation.
And also it tends to behaviour such as this: showing their hand essentially. They know they all finagle their way around laws and regulations to the point of or beyond legality, and assumes everyone does it. Thus those poorer people stand to lose much more than them!!!
Only problem with this kind of projection is that the entire premise is flawed to begin with. The vast majority of people are not constantly trying to squirm their way out of contributing to the very society we all depend on - with us knowing that we do not have millions and billions to buy our way out of any practical problem.
This is the best real-world and most correct application of AI. Rich folks don't stand a chance once AI can recursively verify all their financial data is consistent and no subtle signatures of...
This is the best real-world and most correct application of AI. Rich folks don't stand a chance once AI can recursively verify all their financial data is consistent and no subtle signatures of fraud or misdealings are present. Now they need to up the punishments for financial tomfoolery. Make the wealthy gamble for a change like the rest of us great unwashed.
This does seem like good news, but they’re still going to be operationally constrained because identifying people to go after and actually doing it are two different things. AI can’t actually do...
This does seem like good news, but they’re still going to be operationally constrained because identifying people to go after and actually doing it are two different things. AI can’t actually do the lawsuits. Some lawsuits are substantially more complicated than others, so it has to be worth it.
It will help, but they’ll still need to pick their battles, and apparently they did.
All court documents, including settlements I think, are publicly accessible. It would take a team to track it down though, as you'd have to check a lot of different jurisdictions.
All court documents, including settlements I think, are publicly accessible. It would take a team to track it down though, as you'd have to check a lot of different jurisdictions.
Fatima Hussein IRS Commissioner Daniel Werfel said that with a boost in federal funding and the help of artificial intelligence tools, the agency has new means of targeting wealthy people who have...
Fatima Hussein
IRS Commissioner Daniel Werfel said that with a boost in federal funding and the help of artificial intelligence tools, the agency has new means of targeting wealthy people who have “cut corners” on their taxes.
“If you pay your taxes on time it should be particularly frustrating when you see that wealthy filers are not,” Werfel told reporters in a call previewing the announcement. He said 1,600 millionaires who owe at least $250,000 each in back taxes and 75 large business partnerships that have assets of roughly $10 billion on average are targeted for the new “compliance efforts.”
Werfel said a massive hiring effort and AI research tools developed by IRS employees and contractors are playing a big role in identifying wealthy tax dodgers. The agency is making an effort to showcase positive results from its burst of new funding under President Joe Biden’s Democratic administration as Republicans in Congress look to claw back some of that money.
Grover Norquist, who heads the conservative Americans for Tax Reform, said the IRS’ plan to pursue high wealth individuals does not preclude the IRS from eventually pursuing middle-income Americans for audits down the road.
“This power and these resources allow them to go after anyone they want,” he said. “The next step is to go after anyone they wish to target for political purposes.”
Senate Finance Committee Chair Ron Wyden, D-Ore., said the IRS’ new plan is a “big deal” that “represents a fresh approach to taking on sophisticated tax cheats.”
“This action goes to the heart of Democrats’ effort to ensure the wealthiest are paying their fair share,” he said in a statement.
David Williams, at the right-leaning, nonprofit Taxpayers Protection Alliance, said “every business and every person should pay their taxes — full stop.” However, “I just hope this isn’t used as a justification to hire thousands of new agents,” that would audit Americans en masse, he said.
The federal tax collector gained the enhanced ability to identify tax delinquents with resources provided by the Inflation Reduction Act, which Biden signed into law in August of 2022. The agency was in line for an $80 billion infusion under the law, but that money is vulnerable to potential cutbacks by Congress.
Is this about time? or is it a ploy to gain votes?
Yeah, they can go after anyone they want, who hasn't paid their taxes. I'm all for them specifically targeting wealthy tax cheats, but honestly, if they want to go after others who aren't paying...
“This power and these resources allow them to go after anyone they want,” he said. “The next step is to go after anyone they wish to target for political purposes.”
Yeah, they can go after anyone they want, who hasn't paid their taxes. I'm all for them specifically targeting wealthy tax cheats, but honestly, if they want to go after others who aren't paying their taxes after they get the wealthy ones, that's totally fine with me.
I mean, for 90% of America, its basically impossible to cheat your taxes unless its cash-only under-the-table work. Large standard deduction has rendered vast swaths of tax code worthless. One of...
I mean, for 90% of America, its basically impossible to cheat your taxes unless its cash-only under-the-table work. Large standard deduction has rendered vast swaths of tax code worthless. One of the few things I did like about that 2017 plan. Next step is just start slashing all the vestigious loopholes like charitable deductions and mortgage interest.
And TBH the cost/benefit isn't there for non-millionaires. You would spend $100k in resources to collect like $200.
I agree 100%, which is why I don't care if they "go after" non-wealthy tax cheats once they finish going after the wealthy ones - like you said, there's probably not really that many.
I agree 100%, which is why I don't care if they "go after" non-wealthy tax cheats once they finish going after the wealthy ones - like you said, there's probably not really that many.
Probably both? It keeps the progressive side of the Democratic party happy while giving an easy win to point to in a country increasingly waking up to the lie of trickle down economics. That said,...
Probably both? It keeps the progressive side of the Democratic party happy while giving an easy win to point to in a country increasingly waking up to the lie of trickle down economics.
That said, the Democrats are awful at highlighting their accomplishments so in the end I'm not sure how many "independents" it swings.
I know very little about this, but I thought the problem was not so much that the extremely wealthy are not paying the taxes they're supposed to, but rather that the tax rules themselves are not...
I know very little about this, but I thought the problem was not so much that the extremely wealthy are not paying the taxes they're supposed to, but rather that the tax rules themselves are not configured "properly" to get the "right" amount from the extremely wealthy relative to the average person; and/or there are tax rules that allow them to dodge paying high absolute amounts of tax. Could anyone shed light on this?
Is the implication here that he thinks most middle income Americans don't pay their taxes?
No just a scare tactic conservatives love to use. That the government is coming for your money and freedom if we allow them to go after the rich. You're next!
Now now, we all know that the ultra-wealthy are the defenders of workers rights and the correct distribution of wealth!
I do hate how perverse the ultra-wealthy are with these remarks. I know they're self-serving, I know they're selfish. But my God, the sheer audacity and shamelessness you must have to say things like this with a straight face.
It boggles the mind.
It makes a lot more sense as a scare tactic when you consider how wide of a swath of Americans consider themselves “middle income” (which is an interesting discussion all to itself). This is how you get people making $35k defending people making $35B.
Middle income is ~$100k a household, and most households are dual income.
So a range of like $45k to like $150k I could see being called middle-income.
If you're under $45k you're definitely lower, and if you're over $150k you're upper, doubly so if single.
I get how CoL will still swing that. Another good marker is hired help. If you're hiring cleaners and lawncare, you're upper-middle at a minimum.
To me, it seems more like the kind of empathyless behaviour that the ultra wealthy very often have towards those they consider poorer than them.
They don't have any empathy/ability to see things from a very different perspective, despite often having a lot of sympathy/compassion.
The result is that they will cry when seeing poor people, but won't do anything at all to help the situation.
And also it tends to behaviour such as this: showing their hand essentially. They know they all finagle their way around laws and regulations to the point of or beyond legality, and assumes everyone does it. Thus those poorer people stand to lose much more than them!!!
Only problem with this kind of projection is that the entire premise is flawed to begin with. The vast majority of people are not constantly trying to squirm their way out of contributing to the very society we all depend on - with us knowing that we do not have millions and billions to buy our way out of any practical problem.
This is the best real-world and most correct application of AI. Rich folks don't stand a chance once AI can recursively verify all their financial data is consistent and no subtle signatures of fraud or misdealings are present. Now they need to up the punishments for financial tomfoolery. Make the wealthy gamble for a change like the rest of us great unwashed.
This does seem like good news, but they’re still going to be operationally constrained because identifying people to go after and actually doing it are two different things. AI can’t actually do the lawsuits. Some lawsuits are substantially more complicated than others, so it has to be worth it.
It will help, but they’ll still need to pick their battles, and apparently they did.
Do they name and shame? Or is it only if it gets to trial?
All court documents, including settlements I think, are publicly accessible. It would take a team to track it down though, as you'd have to check a lot of different jurisdictions.
Fatima Hussein
IRS Commissioner Daniel Werfel said that with a boost in federal funding and the help of artificial intelligence tools, the agency has new means of targeting wealthy people who have “cut corners” on their taxes.
Is this about time? or is it a ploy to gain votes?
Yeah, they can go after anyone they want, who hasn't paid their taxes. I'm all for them specifically targeting wealthy tax cheats, but honestly, if they want to go after others who aren't paying their taxes after they get the wealthy ones, that's totally fine with me.
I mean, for 90% of America, its basically impossible to cheat your taxes unless its cash-only under-the-table work. Large standard deduction has rendered vast swaths of tax code worthless. One of the few things I did like about that 2017 plan. Next step is just start slashing all the vestigious loopholes like charitable deductions and mortgage interest.
And TBH the cost/benefit isn't there for non-millionaires. You would spend $100k in resources to collect like $200.
I agree 100%, which is why I don't care if they "go after" non-wealthy tax cheats once they finish going after the wealthy ones - like you said, there's probably not really that many.
Probably both? It keeps the progressive side of the Democratic party happy while giving an easy win to point to in a country increasingly waking up to the lie of trickle down economics.
That said, the Democrats are awful at highlighting their accomplishments so in the end I'm not sure how many "independents" it swings.
I know very little about this, but I thought the problem was not so much that the extremely wealthy are not paying the taxes they're supposed to, but rather that the tax rules themselves are not configured "properly" to get the "right" amount from the extremely wealthy relative to the average person; and/or there are tax rules that allow them to dodge paying high absolute amounts of tax. Could anyone shed light on this?