The point he makes about accessibility is particularly salient. I don’t have much experience with other MMOs, but I played WoW from fairly early on (2005) and one of the things that was great...
The point he makes about accessibility is particularly salient. I don’t have much experience with other MMOs, but I played WoW from fairly early on (2005) and one of the things that was great about PvP at that point is that there was such a varied mix of skill and gear levels, with one being able to compensate for the other.
For example, up until at least the days of tier 1/2 raiding, a max level character in a well-chosen set of commonly obtainable gear was able to hold their own against players who might’ve had fancy raid gear, but weren’t as well versed in PvP. Conversely, in other matchups more powerful gear helped shore up deficiencies in skill.
This also meant that in open world PvP, you weren’t necessarily a goner if jumped by a higher level character. There were several times back then when others tried to gank me with the advantage of several levels, but I still came out on top because I had a better grip on game mechanics and could pilot my character better.
In short, it was quite dynamic and unpredictable, which is an important element in PvP being fun. Contrast this to PvP in modern MMOs, where the outcome of nearly every matchup is almost predetermined, and any attempt to shake this up results in an outcry (see when in Battle for Azeroth, Blizzard added a system that essentially rendered level differences in player combat within the same 10-level bracket moot, removing the overwhelming advantage of players who’d raced to cap to stomp levelers without recourse. The gankers complained loudly and the change was rolled back).
Finally watched this and it's absolutely the conclusion I would have come to. I quit WoW during Cata, but shortly after BC came out, I started playing on PvE servers exclusively, because PvP just...
Finally watched this and it's absolutely the conclusion I would have come to.
I quit WoW during Cata, but shortly after BC came out, I started playing on PvE servers exclusively, because PvP just meant getting ganked and camped while I was leveling; I never looked back.
I'm a pretty damn capable player when it comes to a game designed around PvP; I can crush in a Quake deathmatch and was on the higher end of the win rate scale in something like World of Tanks, but PvP in MMOs has almost never been fun for me. Not only is it not what I'm there for, but the disparity between players makes it not fun; it doesn't feel like a skill challenge, but instead, who can take advantage of who and who has more levels or gear.
I'm content to see PvP in MMOs go away forever. That is, if there's ever another good MMO...
For me, it is completely the opposite. I hate matched competitive games with a passion, but I love sudden moments of chaos. I enjoy games like Dwarf Fortress and Noita, which occasionally throw...
For me, it is completely the opposite. I hate matched competitive games with a passion, but I love sudden moments of chaos. I enjoy games like Dwarf Fortress and Noita, which occasionally throw total madness at you that there is no hope of countering. And, likewise, I played WoW on a PvP server and had enormous fun running around in areas where there might be overpowered Alliance players lurking (I was Horde).
Unfortunately, WoW extremely did not cater to my tastes. I loved loved loved being in over my head (e.g., trying to survive in zones where every monster was ??? level), but the most effective way to level up was to grind for experience in the most boring, level-appropriate locations possible. This is why I ultimately stopped playing WoW. I felt like I was being punished for having fun; my friends (who were less grinding-averse than I am) all leveled up far faster than me because they played the game as it was "supposed" to be played, and then I couldn't play with them anymore.
I just don't have the willpower to treat a game as a chore. I hated leveling up in WoW so much. I would procrastinate on my designated grinding time by doing homework instead — and when I did manage to make myself sit down and play, I would inevitably get distracted and run toward mayhem instead.
I've seen so many of his videos cause he started as an OSRS content creator. I've definitely enjoyed his coverage of the wider MMO landscape! They're always fun, and seem well researched.
I've seen so many of his videos cause he started as an OSRS content creator. I've definitely enjoyed his coverage of the wider MMO landscape! They're always fun, and seem well researched.
Can some one summarize this for me. I don’t have patience to watch a 30 minute video that is padded by extra bits that are just there for “entertainment” and don’t actually contribute to the...
Can some one summarize this for me. I don’t have patience to watch a 30 minute video that is padded by extra bits that are just there for “entertainment” and don’t actually contribute to the point. I mean I am curious what the arguement why pvp is dead in mmos but that’s a long time to dedicate just for one question.
I have no idea if this is useful or not but here's an AI generated summary of the video. Summary (provided by NoteGPT): PVP in MMO RPGs is becoming less popular due to the high barrier to entry...
I have no idea if this is useful or not but here's an AI generated summary of the video.
Summary (provided by NoteGPT):
PVP in MMO RPGs is becoming less popular due to the high barrier to entry and the difficulty in balancing rewards, risk, and skill. Battlegrounds and Battle Royale game modes have been attempts to make PVP more accessible, but they have their limitations.
Highlights
0:34 PVP has been a significant part of gaming for over three decades, but in MMO RPGs, it has started to decline.
2:07 PVP needs to offer rewarding experiences, with loot drops or progress towards specific rewards.
3:28 Balancing risk is crucial, as too much risk can discourage players from engaging in PVP.
5:02 Skill is a defining factor in PVP, offering a unique experience compared to PVE.
6:09 Accessibility is a challenge in MMO RPGs, as the average player has become more skilled and knowledgeable.
8:31 Battlegrounds and Battle Royale game modes have tried to make PVP more accessible, but they have their limitations.
10:40 Balancing rewards, risk, and skill in PVP is a challenging task for game designers.
Key Insights
PVP in MMO RPGs is declining due to the high barrier to entry, requiring time investment and knowledge to be competitive.
Battlegrounds and Battle Royale game modes offer accessible PVP experiences but may not satisfy players looking for a true test of skill.
Balancing rewards, risk, and skill in PVP is crucial for creating engaging and compelling experiences.
The decline of PVP in MMO RPGs highlights the changing landscape of gaming and the increasing skill level of players.
Accessibility is a significant challenge in MMO RPGs when it comes to PVP, as the average player has become more skilled, requiring a low barrier to entry.
The success of PVP game modes like Battlegrounds and Battle Royale shows that there is still a demand for PVP experiences in MMO RPGs, but finding the right balance remains a challenge.
Game designers need to consider the unique challenges of balancing rewards, risk, and skill in PVP to create engaging and accessible experiences.
If I had just read the AI summary instead of watching the video, then I wouldn't have been thinking through the idea for 30mins. It's like skimming a textbook without doing the exercises. While...
If I had just read the AI summary instead of watching the video, then I wouldn't have been thinking through the idea for 30mins. It's like skimming a textbook without doing the exercises.
While watching this vid, I got the idea for a sort of "Minecraft Battle Royale" without direct PVP, where your goal is to build walls and stuff to block other players from catching up, and where you can build stuff that influences the zone to center closer to you instead of having to run to it.
It's kind of weird that Battle Royales randomly generate the zone, but don't seem to ever give players the ability to weaponize it. I've also always hated how Mincraft completely squanders its core mechanic in combat - swords is just bleh. Lava buckets and flint-and-steel are the most interesting combat idea they have, and they're rather weak compared to a diamond sword (or were, last time I checked years ago). It'd be cool to see a game that puts more emphasis on manipulating the terrain for combat purposes.
I won't actually do anything with these ideas, but it's fun playing with them.
I'm in the same boat. I don't play MMOs at all, never liked them, but I'm curious what the gist is and am not going to spend that much time watching a video I don't care THAT much about
I'm in the same boat. I don't play MMOs at all, never liked them, but I'm curious what the gist is and am not going to spend that much time watching a video I don't care THAT much about
The point he makes about accessibility is particularly salient. I don’t have much experience with other MMOs, but I played WoW from fairly early on (2005) and one of the things that was great about PvP at that point is that there was such a varied mix of skill and gear levels, with one being able to compensate for the other.
For example, up until at least the days of tier 1/2 raiding, a max level character in a well-chosen set of commonly obtainable gear was able to hold their own against players who might’ve had fancy raid gear, but weren’t as well versed in PvP. Conversely, in other matchups more powerful gear helped shore up deficiencies in skill.
This also meant that in open world PvP, you weren’t necessarily a goner if jumped by a higher level character. There were several times back then when others tried to gank me with the advantage of several levels, but I still came out on top because I had a better grip on game mechanics and could pilot my character better.
In short, it was quite dynamic and unpredictable, which is an important element in PvP being fun. Contrast this to PvP in modern MMOs, where the outcome of nearly every matchup is almost predetermined, and any attempt to shake this up results in an outcry (see when in Battle for Azeroth, Blizzard added a system that essentially rendered level differences in player combat within the same 10-level bracket moot, removing the overwhelming advantage of players who’d raced to cap to stomp levelers without recourse. The gankers complained loudly and the change was rolled back).
Finally watched this and it's absolutely the conclusion I would have come to.
I quit WoW during Cata, but shortly after BC came out, I started playing on PvE servers exclusively, because PvP just meant getting ganked and camped while I was leveling; I never looked back.
I'm a pretty damn capable player when it comes to a game designed around PvP; I can crush in a Quake deathmatch and was on the higher end of the win rate scale in something like World of Tanks, but PvP in MMOs has almost never been fun for me. Not only is it not what I'm there for, but the disparity between players makes it not fun; it doesn't feel like a skill challenge, but instead, who can take advantage of who and who has more levels or gear.
I'm content to see PvP in MMOs go away forever. That is, if there's ever another good MMO...
For me, it is completely the opposite. I hate matched competitive games with a passion, but I love sudden moments of chaos. I enjoy games like Dwarf Fortress and Noita, which occasionally throw total madness at you that there is no hope of countering. And, likewise, I played WoW on a PvP server and had enormous fun running around in areas where there might be overpowered Alliance players lurking (I was Horde).
Unfortunately, WoW extremely did not cater to my tastes. I loved loved loved being in over my head (e.g., trying to survive in zones where every monster was ??? level), but the most effective way to level up was to grind for experience in the most boring, level-appropriate locations possible. This is why I ultimately stopped playing WoW. I felt like I was being punished for having fun; my friends (who were less grinding-averse than I am) all leveled up far faster than me because they played the game as it was "supposed" to be played, and then I couldn't play with them anymore.
I just don't have the willpower to treat a game as a chore. I hated leveling up in WoW so much. I would procrastinate on my designated grinding time by doing homework instead — and when I did manage to make myself sit down and play, I would inevitably get distracted and run toward mayhem instead.
Idyl is great; easily my favorite new Youtuber. Can't wait to watch this when I have time.
Idyl is the MMORPG creator we need whenever Josh Strife Hayes is taking a break.
I've seen so many of his videos cause he started as an OSRS content creator. I've definitely enjoyed his coverage of the wider MMO landscape! They're always fun, and seem well researched.
Can some one summarize this for me. I don’t have patience to watch a 30 minute video that is padded by extra bits that are just there for “entertainment” and don’t actually contribute to the point. I mean I am curious what the arguement why pvp is dead in mmos but that’s a long time to dedicate just for one question.
I have no idea if this is useful or not but here's an AI generated summary of the video.
Summary (provided by NoteGPT):
PVP in MMO RPGs is becoming less popular due to the high barrier to entry and the difficulty in balancing rewards, risk, and skill. Battlegrounds and Battle Royale game modes have been attempts to make PVP more accessible, but they have their limitations.
Highlights
0:34 PVP has been a significant part of gaming for over three decades, but in MMO RPGs, it has started to decline.
2:07 PVP needs to offer rewarding experiences, with loot drops or progress towards specific rewards.
3:28 Balancing risk is crucial, as too much risk can discourage players from engaging in PVP.
5:02 Skill is a defining factor in PVP, offering a unique experience compared to PVE.
6:09 Accessibility is a challenge in MMO RPGs, as the average player has become more skilled and knowledgeable.
8:31 Battlegrounds and Battle Royale game modes have tried to make PVP more accessible, but they have their limitations.
10:40 Balancing rewards, risk, and skill in PVP is a challenging task for game designers.
Key Insights
PVP in MMO RPGs is declining due to the high barrier to entry, requiring time investment and knowledge to be competitive.
Battlegrounds and Battle Royale game modes offer accessible PVP experiences but may not satisfy players looking for a true test of skill.
Balancing rewards, risk, and skill in PVP is crucial for creating engaging and compelling experiences.
The decline of PVP in MMO RPGs highlights the changing landscape of gaming and the increasing skill level of players.
Accessibility is a significant challenge in MMO RPGs when it comes to PVP, as the average player has become more skilled, requiring a low barrier to entry.
The success of PVP game modes like Battlegrounds and Battle Royale shows that there is still a demand for PVP experiences in MMO RPGs, but finding the right balance remains a challenge.
Game designers need to consider the unique challenges of balancing rewards, risk, and skill in PVP to create engaging and accessible experiences.
Huh. This is surprisingly accurate. And also highlights how little content is actually in a 30 minutes video. 😅
If I had just read the AI summary instead of watching the video, then I wouldn't have been thinking through the idea for 30mins. It's like skimming a textbook without doing the exercises.
While watching this vid, I got the idea for a sort of "Minecraft Battle Royale" without direct PVP, where your goal is to build walls and stuff to block other players from catching up, and where you can build stuff that influences the zone to center closer to you instead of having to run to it.
It's kind of weird that Battle Royales randomly generate the zone, but don't seem to ever give players the ability to weaponize it. I've also always hated how Mincraft completely squanders its core mechanic in combat - swords is just bleh. Lava buckets and flint-and-steel are the most interesting combat idea they have, and they're rather weak compared to a diamond sword (or were, last time I checked years ago). It'd be cool to see a game that puts more emphasis on manipulating the terrain for combat purposes.
I won't actually do anything with these ideas, but it's fun playing with them.
I'm glad you said that, because I was thinking the AI must be the one talking in circles.
Thank you :).
I'm in the same boat. I don't play MMOs at all, never liked them, but I'm curious what the gist is and am not going to spend that much time watching a video I don't care THAT much about