A talk from the developer of Taiji (a spiritual successor of sorts to The Witness) about the elements that make up games in this little sub-genre of puzzle games and what made The Witness work as...
A talk from the developer of Taiji (a spiritual successor of sorts to The Witness) about the elements that make up games in this little sub-genre of puzzle games and what made The Witness work as a game.
From the summary slide at the end (it's still worth watching to get proper definitions for each of these):
Googling Tajiji (I loved the witness) I saw that it was already on my wishlist. And in a humble bundle in December in case anyone got it and didn’t notice. Sadly I missed it
Googling Tajiji (I loved the witness) I saw that it was already on my wishlist. And in a humble bundle in December in case anyone got it and didn’t notice. Sadly I missed it
Discussion regarding a major part of The Witness. Spoilers for a hidden game mechanic, and multiple puzzles. I've always found it interesting how The Witness is sometimes discussed. A lot of...
Discussion regarding a major part of The Witness. Spoilers for a hidden game mechanic, and multiple puzzles.
I've always found it interesting how The Witness is sometimes discussed. A lot of people talk about how the panels are only the surface layer of the game, and how the "real game" is the environmental puzzles... but, I'm not sure I agree with that? The environmental puzzles are neat, no doubt, but I always kind of thought of them as just a bit of a side thing. I discovered them pretty much as early as possible (the large one along the dock as you leave the entry area), so never thought of them as all that much of a "secret". Plus, a lot of them aren't really much of a "puzzle" by some definitions, as a majority of work is just noticing them.
During my playthrough, I completed all the panels in the game, but only a fraction of the environmental puzzles, because I just didn't find seeking them out especially fun. The clues on the monoliths I was never able to make use of for some reason. I didn't consider it a good use of my time to just wander around and hope I'd run into them, so I ended up mostly just treating them as a fun surprise I'd occasionally spot. I think I found maybe a third or so of them in total, which I don't think is all too bad considering I wasn't really trying.
(Also, I'll be a little mean here, I think the ones you have to be on the boat for aren't fun in the slightest. Especially the big shipwreck one. Those puzzles actually do have an execution element, and the time to reset is irritatingly long. Finding them also takes a very long time. The boat is quite slow, even at its highest speed. I gave up trying to find any more of those.)
But, yeah, really I still feel the panels provided the majority of the game's gameplay value to me. While the environmental puzzles are interesting, I don't agree with those who say they're the "real point of the game", because I just don't think they work well enough as a gameplay element (at least to me) to justify that. For me, the game really was just a bunch of nice puzzles on a pretty island!
Interested to know what others think about this.
(Note: I haven't watched the video yet, as it's long and I'm lacking in time. Perhaps it discusses some of this. I'll edit this with anything relevant after I'm able to watch it.)
Same spoiler warning for The Witness Fun fact: until a skip was found about 2 years ago, the 100% speedrun for The Witness was 1 hour longer than the 99.8% speedrun because of one environmental...
Same spoiler warning for The Witness
Especially the big shipwreck one. Those puzzles actually do have an execution element, and the time to reset is irritatingly long.
Fun fact: until a skip was found about 2 years ago, the 100% speedrun for The Witness was 1 hour longer than the 99.8% speedrun because of one environmental puzzle. It won't surprise you what the more popular category was at the time.
As for the "real point of the game", I think this is a question the game is trying to get you to ask. The Witness is an art game, not question about it. Sure it has "real gameplay™" too, which is unfortunately unusual for art games because a lot of developers focus more on the art than the game. The game's story (perhaps "themes" would be a better word. This isn't your traditional beginning-middle-end story, unless you count your journey as a player), loosely told by allusion and metaphor through the audio logs and environment, is one about the nature of truth, self-discovery, and epiphany.
The most obvious in-game epiphany being the environmental puzzles. Since that moment is so memorable and can be encountered in regular gameplay, it's an easy point to talk about with people who played it. It can fit in a tweet. You can share a photo of a lollipop-shaped thing with your friends. The environmental puzzles are a shared experience that are also easy to share.
A slightly more subtle theme is one of cycles, as in the Buddhist concept of it. The game is obvious about it at one point, where if you end the game with 3 lasers then the great glass elevator resets the island and takes you back to the start of the game to try again. And in true Buddhist fashion, there is a way to break out of the cycle (the secret ending which does require an environmental puzzle) which leads to a cutscene that left me with more questions than answers. It really is an art game.
After years of reflection on the game (it occasionally pops up in my consciousness), I've accepted that this is what The Witness is. Its purpose is to be a space that asks philosophical questions of the player, but doesn't (and won't) give the answers. The answers come from within, from observing inside the game, from making connections from inside the game to the metatext of the game, connecting the inside of the game to the outside world, from connecting the game to yourself. I'm going to say the word "pretentious", but I do so with the understanding that this is the game's intent, and pulls it off to such a high standard that the word "pretentious" doesn't actually describe it anymore.
This game is pretentious.
Anyway, if you enjoyed The Witness, make sure to check out what is probably the most perfect parody game for it that could exist: The Looker. It was made by someone who clearly understood The Witness and wanted to pull it back a few notches. Some of the puzzles are a bit obscure, but it does a very good job at what it's trying to do.
I've played The Looker before. I enjoyed it, a lot of the jokes were quite well-written. Puzzle-wise, though, I wasn't the hugest fan of it. Watching a friend of mine play it recently solidified...
I've played The Looker before. I enjoyed it, a lot of the jokes were quite well-written. Puzzle-wise, though, I wasn't the hugest fan of it. Watching a friend of mine play it recently solidified that for me. The game does not do nearly as good a job teaching you the mechanics as the original does, and so there are a few points where players often get stuck (notably, the door to the shooter segment and the last puzzle before the ending) which for a comedy game like this grinds the pace to a halt.
The puzzle in the hedge maze specifically I really don't like - it doesn't parody the original game in any interesting way, and at least for me and the friend I watched the mechanic simply didn't click the first time through the book. Going back to check again later takes a long time because of the hedge maze. It's a frustrating puzzle, and I don't think it added anything to the game.
Sometimes the game also doesn't really feel to me like it knows what it's trying to be. Some of the jokes just didn't click with me or my friend (namely, a couple of the audio logs). I think the good jokes make up for the few duds, but it wasn't laugh-out-loud funny the whole time, and combined with the occasionally iffy puzzles I think the game really could have used some tightening up.
It is a shame that Jonathan Blow doesn't want to play The Looker. The developer has said he's a fan of the original game, and really it doesn't even make fun of The Witness all too much - in fact, I think the parts of it that work best are more the parts that feel like a loving tribute, rather than the few jokes that do make fun of the original (like the audio logs). It's clearly made by someone who understood what the original game was going for. It doesn't feel mean-spirited to me.
I'd have to agree. The plot twist is neat because it (for most players) just kind of hits you at this point in the game where you'll feel like you mastered it and then you go "oh shit". To me the...
I'd have to agree. The plot twist is neat because it (for most players) just kind of hits you at this point in the game where you'll feel like you mastered it and then you go "oh shit".
To me the regular puzzles are still the bulk of this game's fun. I was absolutely ecstatic after finally beating the big puzzle gauntlet to the tunes of "In The Hall Of The Mountain King" with barely a second remaining on the song. Good times
Beating the challenge is probably one of the highest highs I've had in a puzzle game. I usually dislike timed puzzles, but this one just felt good. Plus if I got frustrated I'd just wander around...
Beating the challenge is probably one of the highest highs I've had in a puzzle game. I usually dislike timed puzzles, but this one just felt good. Plus if I got frustrated I'd just wander around trying to find more environmental puzzles until I was ready to do a few more attempts.
I got so lucky on the Challenge. Somehow the secret behind the triangle maze didn't click for me, but despite that I just so happened to be able to get past it in only a few attempts, just by...
I got so lucky on the Challenge. Somehow the secret behind the triangle maze didn't click for me, but despite that I just so happened to be able to get past it in only a few attempts, just by running around it randomly. I then somehow managed to complete both pillar puzzles on my first try. I expected it to take me far longer than it did.
I played through and straight up missed the entire concept of the environmental puzzles. I noticed the patterns a few times, but I assumed they were clues if some sort and never thought to even...
I played through and straight up missed the entire concept of the environmental puzzles. I noticed the patterns a few times, but I assumed they were clues if some sort and never thought to even try manipulating them like the screens.
Tildes doesn't have spoiler tags, just expandable detail sections. They're used for spoilers like <details> <summary>Visible summary</summary> Hidden spoiler </details> Preview: Visible summary...
Tildes doesn't have spoiler tags, just expandable detail sections. They're used for spoilers like
Nearly done with Lingo, which is definitely a Witness-like. After more than 87 hours, we have 41 achievements out of 42. Probably the final one is the reward for the...
Nearly done with Lingo, which is definitely a Witness-like. After more than 87 hours, we have 41 achievements out of 42.
Probably the final one is the reward for the timed-section-with-stressful-music which we've been slamming our heads against.
In addition to such very obvious parallels, there is as an easter egg a direct reference to The Witness in one of the game's puzzle panels (in addition to three other games that were probably also inspirations).
A talk from the developer of Taiji (a spiritual successor of sorts to The Witness) about the elements that make up games in this little sub-genre of puzzle games and what made The Witness work as a game.
From the summary slide at the end (it's still worth watching to get proper definitions for each of these):
There's a follow-up Q&A as well.
Googling Tajiji (I loved the witness) I saw that it was already on my wishlist. And in a humble bundle in December in case anyone got it and didn’t notice. Sadly I missed it
Discussion regarding a major part of The Witness. Spoilers for a hidden game mechanic, and multiple puzzles.
I've always found it interesting how The Witness is sometimes discussed. A lot of people talk about how the panels are only the surface layer of the game, and how the "real game" is the environmental puzzles... but, I'm not sure I agree with that? The environmental puzzles are neat, no doubt, but I always kind of thought of them as just a bit of a side thing. I discovered them pretty much as early as possible (the large one along the dock as you leave the entry area), so never thought of them as all that much of a "secret". Plus, a lot of them aren't really much of a "puzzle" by some definitions, as a majority of work is just noticing them.
During my playthrough, I completed all the panels in the game, but only a fraction of the environmental puzzles, because I just didn't find seeking them out especially fun. The clues on the monoliths I was never able to make use of for some reason. I didn't consider it a good use of my time to just wander around and hope I'd run into them, so I ended up mostly just treating them as a fun surprise I'd occasionally spot. I think I found maybe a third or so of them in total, which I don't think is all too bad considering I wasn't really trying.
(Also, I'll be a little mean here, I think the ones you have to be on the boat for aren't fun in the slightest. Especially the big shipwreck one. Those puzzles actually do have an execution element, and the time to reset is irritatingly long. Finding them also takes a very long time. The boat is quite slow, even at its highest speed. I gave up trying to find any more of those.)
But, yeah, really I still feel the panels provided the majority of the game's gameplay value to me. While the environmental puzzles are interesting, I don't agree with those who say they're the "real point of the game", because I just don't think they work well enough as a gameplay element (at least to me) to justify that. For me, the game really was just a bunch of nice puzzles on a pretty island!
Interested to know what others think about this.
(Note: I haven't watched the video yet, as it's long and I'm lacking in time. Perhaps it discusses some of this. I'll edit this with anything relevant after I'm able to watch it.)
Same spoiler warning for The Witness
Fun fact: until a skip was found about 2 years ago, the 100% speedrun for The Witness was 1 hour longer than the 99.8% speedrun because of one environmental puzzle. It won't surprise you what the more popular category was at the time.
As for the "real point of the game", I think this is a question the game is trying to get you to ask. The Witness is an art game, not question about it. Sure it has "real gameplay™" too, which is unfortunately unusual for art games because a lot of developers focus more on the art than the game. The game's story (perhaps "themes" would be a better word. This isn't your traditional beginning-middle-end story, unless you count your journey as a player), loosely told by allusion and metaphor through the audio logs and environment, is one about the nature of truth, self-discovery, and epiphany.
The most obvious in-game epiphany being the environmental puzzles. Since that moment is so memorable and can be encountered in regular gameplay, it's an easy point to talk about with people who played it. It can fit in a tweet. You can share a photo of a lollipop-shaped thing with your friends. The environmental puzzles are a shared experience that are also easy to share.
A slightly more subtle theme is one of cycles, as in the Buddhist concept of it. The game is obvious about it at one point, where if you end the game with 3 lasers then the great glass elevator resets the island and takes you back to the start of the game to try again. And in true Buddhist fashion, there is a way to break out of the cycle (the secret ending which does require an environmental puzzle) which leads to a cutscene that left me with more questions than answers. It really is an art game.
After years of reflection on the game (it occasionally pops up in my consciousness), I've accepted that this is what The Witness is. Its purpose is to be a space that asks philosophical questions of the player, but doesn't (and won't) give the answers. The answers come from within, from observing inside the game, from making connections from inside the game to the metatext of the game, connecting the inside of the game to the outside world, from connecting the game to yourself. I'm going to say the word "pretentious", but I do so with the understanding that this is the game's intent, and pulls it off to such a high standard that the word "pretentious" doesn't actually describe it anymore.
This game is pretentious.
Anyway, if you enjoyed The Witness, make sure to check out what is probably the most perfect parody game for it that could exist: The Looker. It was made by someone who clearly understood The Witness and wanted to pull it back a few notches. Some of the puzzles are a bit obscure, but it does a very good job at what it's trying to do.
I've played The Looker before. I enjoyed it, a lot of the jokes were quite well-written. Puzzle-wise, though, I wasn't the hugest fan of it. Watching a friend of mine play it recently solidified that for me. The game does not do nearly as good a job teaching you the mechanics as the original does, and so there are a few points where players often get stuck (notably, the door to the shooter segment and the last puzzle before the ending) which for a comedy game like this grinds the pace to a halt.
The puzzle in the hedge maze specifically I really don't like - it doesn't parody the original game in any interesting way, and at least for me and the friend I watched the mechanic simply didn't click the first time through the book. Going back to check again later takes a long time because of the hedge maze. It's a frustrating puzzle, and I don't think it added anything to the game.
Sometimes the game also doesn't really feel to me like it knows what it's trying to be. Some of the jokes just didn't click with me or my friend (namely, a couple of the audio logs). I think the good jokes make up for the few duds, but it wasn't laugh-out-loud funny the whole time, and combined with the occasionally iffy puzzles I think the game really could have used some tightening up.
It is a shame that Jonathan Blow doesn't want to play The Looker. The developer has said he's a fan of the original game, and really it doesn't even make fun of The Witness all too much - in fact, I think the parts of it that work best are more the parts that feel like a loving tribute, rather than the few jokes that do make fun of the original (like the audio logs). It's clearly made by someone who understood what the original game was going for. It doesn't feel mean-spirited to me.
I'd have to agree. The plot twist is neat because it (for most players) just kind of hits you at this point in the game where you'll feel like you mastered it and then you go "oh shit".
To me the regular puzzles are still the bulk of this game's fun. I was absolutely ecstatic after finally beating the big puzzle gauntlet to the tunes of "In The Hall Of The Mountain King" with barely a second remaining on the song. Good times
Beating the challenge is probably one of the highest highs I've had in a puzzle game. I usually dislike timed puzzles, but this one just felt good. Plus if I got frustrated I'd just wander around trying to find more environmental puzzles until I was ready to do a few more attempts.
I got so lucky on the Challenge. Somehow the secret behind the triangle maze didn't click for me, but despite that I just so happened to be able to get past it in only a few attempts, just by running around it randomly. I then somehow managed to complete both pillar puzzles on my first try. I expected it to take me far longer than it did.
I played through and straight up missed the entire concept of the environmental puzzles. I noticed the patterns a few times, but I assumed they were clues if some sort and never thought to even try manipulating them like the screens.
Tildes doesn't have spoiler tags, just expandable detail sections. They're used for spoilers like
Preview:
Visible summary
Hidden spoiler
Feel free to label this as off topic
Thanks, I've put my comment inside a
<details>tag. Forgot about those.Nearly done with Lingo, which is definitely a Witness-like. After more than 87 hours, we have 41 achievements out of 42.
Probably the final one is the reward for the timed-section-with-stressful-music which we've been slamming our heads against.
In addition to such very obvious parallels, there is as an easter egg a direct reference to The Witness in one of the game's puzzle panels (in addition to three other games that were probably also inspirations).