25 votes

Cyberpunk 2077's E3 demo has weak gunplay and unimaginative stereotypes

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35 comments

  1. [11]
    c1pher Link
    "“Obviously we’re paying a lot of attention to representing different groups respectfully. You know, there’s always a risk. Of course we have it in the back of our heads that we need to be careful...

    "“Obviously we’re paying a lot of attention to representing different groups respectfully. You know, there’s always a risk. Of course we have it in the back of our heads that we need to be careful about this. We are contacting different consultants to learn about specific groups, and our company has a variety of people with different beliefs."

    It feels wild to me, that a computer game, developed by a company in poland, has to deal with race representation. I think they should focus on a game being fun and not trying to mirror trends of society, games are meant to spend time enjoy them, not looking for some political justice or whatever it is.

    11 votes
    1. Deimos Link Parent
      You're being disingenuous. This isn't some tiny company in Poland working out of a garage. CD Projekt Red is valued at over $5 billion USD (higher than Square Enix, Capcom, and many other major...

      You're being disingenuous. This isn't some tiny company in Poland working out of a garage. CD Projekt Red is valued at over $5 billion USD (higher than Square Enix, Capcom, and many other major companies), has almost 1000 employees, and makes some of the most popular video games in the world. That level of prominence in the industry comes with responsibilities, they can't just shrug and pretend they don't know what they're doing any more.

      33 votes
    2. dubteedub Link Parent
      They are making a Cyberpunk game set over 50 years in the future that takes place just outside of San Francisco, California. Do you think a cyberpunk future in the Bay Area is going to be 100%...

      They are making a Cyberpunk game set over 50 years in the future that takes place just outside of San Francisco, California. Do you think a cyberpunk future in the Bay Area is going to be 100% white and straight?

      Edit: just to add, the game's story revolves around an extremely political topic of capitalism and corporate indoctrination. Cyberpunk as a concept itself is super political and has been since its start. This isn't about injecting politics or social justice into a game. The developers chose to base their game on an established universe and its themes. This is about staying true to those roots.

      22 votes
    3. [7]
      stu2b50 Link Parent
      That's not the same as trying to represent different groups in a truthful and respectful manner. For one thing, the latter actually does improve the game and world. Real groups of people have...

      not looking for some political justice or whatever it is.

      That's not the same as trying to represent different groups in a truthful and respectful manner. For one thing, the latter actually does improve the game and world.

      Real groups of people have nuance and depth, if they're just a raging stereotype then besides any offense that could cause, it just makes the world seem shallow and fake.

      This isn't the Witcher anymore, in a supposedly futuristic supercity with a melting pot of cultures, it would directly make the world building worse if they did not try to actually understand and correctly model those different cultures.

      18 votes
      1. [6]
        krg Link Parent
        Considering this game takes place in the future, the modelling of culture is mostly speculative* (I'm kinda thinking of Blade Runner). Brash current stereotypes are invalid, but I think current...

        Considering this game takes place in the future, the modelling of culture is mostly speculative* (I'm kinda thinking of Blade Runner). Brash current stereotypes are invalid, but I think current "accurate"* representation doesn't necessarily get it right for the setting, either. Of course, stereotypes are harmful and should be avoided.

        I remember watching the first reveal and thinking the slang the Latino character used felt a bit awkward and forced, but it didn't bother me much. However, it's kinda passé slang now so I can't imagine a character in the future using it. Like...nobody calls anyone "turkey" these days when they're denigrating someone else (unless you're this guy).

        *I wasn't alive 60 years ago, so it's tough for me to understand if there is a stark contrast in people's culture. Given the rate of change these days, though, I imagine 60 years from now would be akin to change from 1900 to now.

        *"accurate" in quotes as I don't see how it's possible to capture the depth and complexity of people's culture in a vidya game, especially since people experience their culture uniquely.

        4 votes
        1. [5]
          stu2b50 Link Parent
          You don't have to capture it entirely. The "troubling signs" in the article is primarily the fact that it appears there's a culture of all black people who are called animals that you mow down who...

          capture the depth and complexity of people's culture in a vidya game, especially since people experience their culture uniquely.

          You don't have to capture it entirely. The "troubling signs" in the article is primarily the fact that it appears there's a culture of all black people who are called animals that you mow down who act thuggish, have no loyalty, steal, and have no qualms backstabbing you.

          This is just a "troubling sign", since what's in a short demo doesn't mean all of the, uh, "animals" are like this in Cyberpunk, but imagine if they were. That wouldn't be very nuanced.

          2 votes
          1. CALICO Link Parent
            Considering that Mike Pondsmith, creator of Cyberpunk 2020, is an African American and worked closely with CRPR on the world and lore of CP2077, I find myself not all that concerned about it. If...

            Considering that Mike Pondsmith, creator of Cyberpunk 2020, is an African American and worked closely with CRPR on the world and lore of CP2077, I find myself not all that concerned about it. If the entire game categorically mischaracterized black people or played foul with his world, I trust that he'd speak up about that.

            10 votes
          2. [3]
            krg Link Parent
            Right. The Animals gang is mentioned as being predominantly black (which makes sense if it's an enclave of Haitian immigrants), not all black, and I highly doubt that'd be the way every black...

            Right. The Animals gang is mentioned as being predominantly black (which makes sense if it's an enclave of Haitian immigrants), not all black, and I highly doubt that'd be the way every black character is going to be represented, though it'd be rightfully reprehensible if it was. I guess for me it's just no surprise that a game that deals with delving into the criminal underworld reveals criminal characters.

            4 votes
            1. [2]
              stu2b50 Link Parent
              Just the demo doesn't mean anything by itself, it's just a possible bad sign in combination with the super movie-style exaggerated latino interactions and that CPDR has typically dealt with...

              Just the demo doesn't mean anything by itself, it's just a possible bad sign in combination with the super movie-style exaggerated latino interactions and that CPDR has typically dealt with homogenous cultures.

              I guess for me it's just no surprise that a game that deals with delving into the criminal underworld reveals criminal characters.

              I don't think there's a single person, including the writer of the article, that is surprised there are criminals in the game.

              2 votes
              1. krg Link Parent
                Sorry. I didn't word that well. I meant that the demographics of a criminal element mirroring those of the area they inhabit shouldn't be too surprising. Now, if the majority of criminal elements...

                Sorry. I didn't word that well. I meant that the demographics of a criminal element mirroring those of the area they inhabit shouldn't be too surprising. Now, if the majority of criminal elements in the game were Haitian immigrants, then that'd be highly problematic.

                2 votes
    4. NaraVara Link Parent
      Poland is kind of in the middle of some Nazi shit right now, so I don't know why you'd think it's that wild. It's not as if Europe is some land of ethnic homogeneity. I mean, even setting aside...

      It feels wild to me, that a computer game, developed by a company in poland, has to deal with race representation.

      Poland is kind of in the middle of some Nazi shit right now, so I don't know why you'd think it's that wild. It's not as if Europe is some land of ethnic homogeneity.

      I think they should focus on a game being fun and not trying to mirror trends of society,

      I mean, even setting aside that the game is literally called Cyberpunk, which is all about commentary on trends in society. It's a narratively focused game. You want people to tell a narrative without reflecting anything about the society it's in? How does that even make sense?

      games are meant to spend time enjoy them, not looking for some political justice or whatever it is.

      The point is, lots of people don't get to enjoy them if the they're being cast in offensive depictions.

      7 votes
  2. [6]
    Anwyl Link
    Weak gunplay doesn't sound like an issue to me personally, since I'd be doing other stuff, but the weak and offensive story is both a big problem, and one that's hard to fix just before release.

    Weak gunplay doesn't sound like an issue to me personally, since I'd be doing other stuff, but the weak and offensive story is both a big problem, and one that's hard to fix just before release.

    9 votes
    1. [5]
      NaraVara Link Parent
      The offensiveness is kind of a sticky point. Is fiction that depicts a racist/sexist/whateverist society inherently offensive? Tropey, boring, lazy, or hackneyed maybe. But I don't know if it tips...

      The offensiveness is kind of a sticky point. Is fiction that depicts a racist/sexist/whateverist society inherently offensive? Tropey, boring, lazy, or hackneyed maybe. But I don't know if it tips over into offensive in itself.

      9 votes
      1. [4]
        stu2b50 Link Parent
        Depicting a racist society is perfectly fine; existing does not mean promoting. If you have a racist dude who hates black guys, that doesn't mean your work is offensive. Racist people naturally...

        Depicting a racist society is perfectly fine; existing does not mean promoting. If you have a racist dude who hates black guys, that doesn't mean your work is offensive. Racist people naturally exist in real life. On the other hand, if you portray black people in your world as all backstabbing thugs, then that's trending towards no bueno. And besides offense, that's just stupid and not how humans work.

        From the article, it seems unfortunately to be moving over to the latter, though it is a naturally a small slice of the world.

        9 votes
        1. dubteedub Link Parent
          Yeah, the rationalization provided by the artists for the hypersexualized transgender in-game advert makes sense to me and seemed genuine. However, if the game's actual writing doesnt include...

          Yeah, the rationalization provided by the artists for the hypersexualized transgender in-game advert makes sense to me and seemed genuine.

          However, if the game's actual writing doesnt include trans people or only portrays them in hypersexualized / fetishized ways, then it is pretty problematic and exploitative.

          9 votes
        2. [2]
          NaraVara Link Parent
          In this case I was thinking about the example of the player character mocking a Black characters' accent. That was one of the main concrete examples the article mentioned but I was also kind of...

          On the other hand, if you portray black people in your world as all backstabbing thugs, then that's trending towards no bueno.

          In this case I was thinking about the example of the player character mocking a Black characters' accent. That was one of the main concrete examples the article mentioned but I was also kind of like "Ok, so the player character is a bit of a shithead I guess?" That seems more like a narrative choice to make him a shithead than an endorsement of his behavior.

          On the other hand, it would be nice if I wasn't forced into the shoes of a shithead. Or at least, not this specific kind of boring and uninspired shitheaderry.

          4 votes
          1. Douglas Link Parent
            Seriously. If the devs of this story are making the protagonist a subtle racist in the beginning and eventually showing the player how bad their racism is, and they do a 180-- that would be the...

            On the other hand, it would be nice if I wasn't forced into the shoes of a shithead. Or at least, not this specific kind of boring and uninspired shitheaderry.

            Seriously. If the devs of this story are making the protagonist a subtle racist in the beginning and eventually showing the player how bad their racism is, and they do a 180-- that would be the only way to turn this into a positive.

            ...but something tells me that's not really going to be the focus of the story whatsoever, and it's just going to be the poor writing that it comes off as.

            2 votes
  3. [10]
    clr Link
    I do feel that this trend of social justice pervading all aspects of every industry is starting to become tired. People come to E3 for video games and excitement, not racial criticism and tension....

    I do feel that this trend of social justice pervading all aspects of every industry is starting to become tired. People come to E3 for video games and excitement, not racial criticism and tension. Be thankful that CD Projekt Red added minorities to the video game in the first place. Portraying them in positive light 100% of the time would be inorganic. I understand that the author of this article is well intentioned, but the fact that he appears to be white makes this come off as white guilt.

    3 votes
    1. kfwyre Link Parent
      I agree that constant critique can be exhausting. It can feel especially bothersome because it often infringes on a good time. Why can't anyone just have a good time?! It's something I've thought...

      I agree that constant critique can be exhausting. It can feel especially bothersome because it often infringes on a good time. Why can't anyone just have a good time?! It's something I've thought a lot about.

      I don't know if you're familiar with the idea of "front stage/back stage" behavior, but it helps me with this topic a lot. Some of what I'm about to say stretches the metaphor past its intentions, but I'm going to share it anyway because it was how I was introduced to the idea and I've found it immensely useful.

      Basically, much of our lives are performed in a front-stage way where we are aware that we are being seen and watched and thus must "perform." Performance, even that which you enjoy or can do easily, is still tiring. You are fundamentally on guard and more alert because of the presence of the audience. Everybody does this because everybody has to to be a part of society, but everybody also has a way of moving themselves "back stage," which is where we are allowed to relax and be our more true selves. It's where we decompress from the performance we've been upholding for the past eight hours at work/school/public places.

      Most leisure activities, gaming included, happen in this "back stage" place, which I think is why social justice critiques can feel so invasive. This is supposed to be my happy place! The place I go to get away from it all! Why is it suddenly a battleground? It's like if I decided to take a leisurely stroll in the park, only to be attacked by fire ants when I sat down on a bench to rest. That's not what I'm here for, ants!

      Interestingly enough, it's also this exact same idea that helps me understand why people want to critique in the first place and why they can be legitimately valid in doing so.

      These people also want to go to their own back stages and have the same chill, relaxed, fun atmosphere. However, in their back stage, it's not critiques showing up to bother them but something else--something that hits a raw nerve, like an insensitive racial stereotype or an outright slur. They want nothing more than to just enjoy the game too, but it's the game itself that sometimes makes that difficult. The fire ants show up to their back stage not as politicized screeds but as reminders of discrimination.

      For example, I can't tell you how many times over the decades I've booted up a favorite game after a long day at school only to have someone in the chat call me or someone else a "fag." It's not a huge deal. I can take it. I'm thick-skinned and have dealt with much, much worse in my life. It's not that the action itself is so flagrantly bad that it throws me off, but that my back stage should be where I don't have to deal with any of that. I should be able to just play the game and enjoy it, you know? Just let me shoot my zombies!

      But now somebody's gone and used that word that word; the one with all those really awful real-world associations; the one that my grandfather used to yell at me when I was 6; the one that I used to cry about over and over again in middle school. I get that the guy saying it doesn't even mean it that way and certainly isn't trying to dredge up any of those associations, but you know what? It still kinda takes the wind out of my sails. Suddenly the game's not as fun. I'm not as invested. Everything looks a little grayer and less vibrant. And, most importantly, that shouldn't be what I have to deal with when I'm in my own back stage. But, regardless of what I want, it happened anyway, and I get to deal with it. The fire ants are nibbling again.

      Ultimately, it's this setup that's helped me understand why there's a lot of people talking past each other when it comes to the idea of social justice critiques of entertainment media. If someone's had to deal with racism all their life, I can assure you the last thing they want to see when they go backstage is reminders of it. The same goes for sexism, homophobia, or any of the other forms of discrimination that so regularly get critiqued in the media.

      This doesn't mean it can't go too far, and I will admit that I find myself disagreeing with a lot of critiques that are very much in my lane, politically speaking. This also, however, doesn't mean we can't undershoot either and permit some pretty awful stuff to go by unchecked. It feels wrong to be a killjoy and ruin something that's just trying to be entertaining, but it also feels wrong to mindlessly consume it even when it might be perpetuating some troublesome ideas with real-world harm, right? It's quite the dilemma, and I don't think we can go all in on one or the other. Instead, I think there's a balance to be found.

      I say all of this not to throw one more critique on the pile (i.e. a critique of critiques!). Instead, I mention it simply because it's helpful to me as someone who both sees the value of critique but also can feel weighed down by them. It helps me to remember that the people doing the critiquing aren't necessarily doing so to ruin your fun--they're usually doing it to try to preserve theirs. They're tired of the ants nibbling, and they're shooing them away in hopes that they won't come around next time. It's not that they're intentionally sending the ants over to me and my picnic, but it can definitely feel that way sometimes. I just try to keep in mind that they're wanting their fun too--just like I'm wanting mine.

      14 votes
    2. [8]
      alexandria (edited ) Link Parent
      ... Cyberpunk as a genre is inherently political. Some of the themes that are inherent to cyberpunk include: late stage capitalism, corporate oligarchism, body ownership, freedom, fluid concepts...

      ... Cyberpunk as a genre is inherently political. Some of the themes that are inherent to cyberpunk include: late stage capitalism, corporate oligarchism, body ownership, freedom, fluid concepts of social and individual identity, sexual freedom, the effects of drug use on society and perception, race and identity, cultural and social body norms, etc.

      "Be thankful that CD Projekt Red added minorities to the video game in the first place. Portraying them in positive light 100% of the time would be inorganic"

      So... is a world without minorities something that you consider 'organic'? What about a world where all of the minorities are depicted as literally no better than animals. Is that organic? You are concerned that "positive representation of minorities" is "inorganic", while having simultaneously a total lack of concern for even the slightest debate about how organic a world is when depicted without minorities, or a world with minorities depicted as no better than animals. That, in my opinion, simply and clearly shows your bias on this.

      12 votes
      1. [4]
        hungariantoast Link Parent
        I've seen stuff like this repeated an awful lot lately, what with all the nitpicking that this game's been targeted by, but I've never seen it backed up by any sources. Which isn't to say that I'm...

        Cyberpunk as a genre is inherently political. Some of the themes that are inherent to cyberpunk include: late stage capitalism, corporate oligarchism, body ownership, freedom, fluid concepts of social and individual identity, sexual freedom, the effects of drug use on society and perception, race and identity, cultural and social body norms, etc.

        I've seen stuff like this repeated an awful lot lately, what with all the nitpicking that this game's been targeted by, but I've never seen it backed up by any sources.

        Which isn't to say that I'm challenging what you're saying, I fucking wish CDPR would go hard on the "late stage capitalism" bit, but I've literally never seen someone provide a source for these claims. I'm about to dive into the rule books and source material for Cyberpunk in anticipation for playing the game, but do you have anything you can point me at that supports these claims?

        1 vote
        1. [3]
          cfabbro (edited ) Link Parent
          Cyberpunk is by far my favorite genre of fiction and it's an incredibly diverse one, so the only singular sources I can really point you to would be wikipedia and tvtropes cyberpunk entries, which...

          but do you have anything you can point me at that supports these claims?

          Cyberpunk is by far my favorite genre of fiction and it's an incredibly diverse one, so the only singular sources I can really point you to would be wikipedia and tvtropes cyberpunk entries, which touch on a great many of the themes explored in most cyberpunk fiction, but they can't really do the genre justice or cover everything. But I will say that nothing @alexandria said rings false to my ears, and I have consumed a shit ton of cyberpunk fiction over the decades.

          However, outside of singular sources, if you want to go down a cyberpunk rabbit hole, I can certainly help you by making a ton of recommendations though. E.g.

          • If you want to read just one piece of cyberpunk fiction that covers the most ground in the least amount of time, I would highly recommend Warren Ellis' comic Transmetropolitan. It probably covers 90% of the themes @alexandria listed.

          • William Gibson's Sprawl Trilogy novels are another that similarly cover a lot of those themes.

          • And the Ghost in the Shell, and GitS: Standalone Complex + 2nd GIG anime movie+series being another still. (Don't watch GitS: Arise though, it's garbage)

          And if there are specific themes that you would like to read something that focuses more intently on, I could probably easily make some recommendations for that as well. ;)

          8 votes
          1. [2]
            hungariantoast Link Parent
            Thanks for the recommendations. I've already watched GitS, but I've had Transmetropolitan sitting on my hard drive for years now. Guess I found a reason to start reading it. I'll also check out...

            Thanks for the recommendations. I've already watched GitS, but I've had Transmetropolitan sitting on my hard drive for years now. Guess I found a reason to start reading it.

            I'll also check out tvtropes and those novels. They don't look too terribly long so I might be able to knock them out relatively quick.

            3 votes
            1. cfabbro Link Parent
              NP! Let me know what you think of Transmetro when you're done... it's a wild ride. :P

              NP! Let me know what you think of Transmetro when you're done... it's a wild ride. :P

              2 votes
      2. [3]
        clr Link Parent
        Well that’s a bit of a straw man as I never stated such things or made any claims about animals. I’m suggesting that expectations in 2019 are too high for a video game developer to appeal to all...

        Well that’s a bit of a straw man as I never stated such things or made any claims about animals. I’m suggesting that expectations in 2019 are too high for a video game developer to appeal to all marginalized groups. People tend to have an innate sense of entitlement. There will always be someone who is going to be unhappy that their specific ethnic, cultural, sexual, gender, or religious identity didn’t receive fair representation, and developers shouldn’t be forced to pander to them.

        1. [2]
          alyaza Link Parent
          maybe in general you have a point, but at least in this case i really don't think it's that much to ask to represent minorities in a way that makes them resemble fleshed out people and not...

          I’m suggesting that expectations in 2019 are too high for a video game developer to appeal to all marginalized groups.

          maybe in general you have a point, but at least in this case i really don't think it's that much to ask to represent minorities in a way that makes them resemble fleshed out people and not basically just cardboard-cutouts of their heritage's (or ethnicity's) stereotypes considering that the setting is literally one of the most culturally diverse areas in the US (and, if we're trying to be faithful to how things would likely be by 2077, should probably be very minority-centric!). LA, probably the closest analogue to the city they're setting this in, has demographics that looked like this a decade ago when the census recorded the population:

          According to the 2010 Census, the racial makeup of Los Angeles included: 1,888,158 Whites (49.8%), 365,118 African Americans (9.6%), 28,215 Native Americans (0.7%), 426,959 Asians (11.3%), 5,577 Pacific Islanders (0.1%), 902,959 from other races (23.8%), and 175,635 (4.6%) from two or more races.[104] Hispanics or Latinos of any race were 1,838,822 persons (48.5%). Los Angeles is home to people from more than 140 countries speaking 224 different identified languages.[108] Ethnic enclaves like Chinatown, Historic Filipinotown, Koreatown, Little Armenia, Little Ethiopia, Tehrangeles, Little Tokyo, Little Bangladesh, and Thai Town provide examples of the polyglot character of Los Angeles.

          6 votes
          1. CALICO Link Parent
            We're not, though. CP2077 isn't a prediction of our future, it's set about 50 years after the end of the pen & paper RPG Cyberpunk 2020. It's set in a dystopian city, in a United States where the...

            and, if we're trying to be faithful to how things would likely be by 2077,

            We're not, though. CP2077 isn't a prediction of our future, it's set about 50 years after the end of the pen & paper RPG Cyberpunk 2020. It's set in a dystopian city, in a United States where the government has become reliant on megacorporations after a massive socio-economic collapse. By this time in the world of Cyberpunk, there have been already Three Corporate Wars, and the fourth one will start in a few years and end with a nuclear detonation.

            2 votes
  4. Deimos Link
    Alrighty, this thread's going downhill fast and I don't want to babysit it all night.

    Alrighty, this thread's going downhill fast and I don't want to babysit it all night.

    3 votes
  5. [3]
    blitz Link
    If I'm understanding correctly, there was another gameplay demo at this year's E3? I can't seem to find any footage of it on Youtube and this article doesn't link to it. Is this author's opinion...

    If I'm understanding correctly, there was another gameplay demo at this year's E3? I can't seem to find any footage of it on Youtube and this article doesn't link to it. Is this author's opinion on the new gameplay all we have or is there somewhere everyone can watch it?

    2 votes
    1. [2]
      Deimos (edited ) Link Parent
      It's a closed-door demo that the press can attend and write about, but they aren't allowed to actually play (I'm not sure if it's recorded or a CDPR employee always plays while they watch). There...

      It's a closed-door demo that the press can attend and write about, but they aren't allowed to actually play (I'm not sure if it's recorded or a CDPR employee always plays while they watch). There isn't any video of it as far as I know, but maybe CDPR will release a recording eventually?

      Here's a couple of other sites' impressions of it:

      4 votes
      1. blitz Link Parent
        Those articles were much more clear about what this was, thank you!

        Those articles were much more clear about what this was, thank you!

        4 votes
  6. [4]
    Deimos (edited ) Link
    Whoops, we posted at almost exactly the same time - I was going to start a thread with these articles linked in a text post (edit: deleted now).

    Whoops, we posted at almost exactly the same time - I was going to start a thread with these articles linked in a text post (edit: deleted now).

    1. [3]
      alyaza Link Parent
      honestly? dunno. i'd lean toward standalone with this particular link because the main reason i posted this is less about the demo itself (plenty of pieces on that) and more about how CDPR's...

      honestly? dunno. i'd lean toward standalone with this particular link because the main reason i posted this is less about the demo itself (plenty of pieces on that) and more about how CDPR's incorporated minority characters, since CDPR's been on the receiving end of a bunch of criticism for how it goes about that, not just with the haitians which are the half-focus of this article but also with how they've bungled the incorporation of an advertisement with a transgender person and then had to extensively justify its inclusion.

      6 votes
      1. cfabbro (edited ) Link Parent
        You could always make a comment in the other topic regarding that to kick the discussion off though. It seems a bit silly to have them both on the "front page" when this article is included in the...

        You could always make a comment in the other topic regarding that to kick the discussion off though. It seems a bit silly to have them both on the "front page" when this article is included in the other topic as well.

        edit: Actually, I changed my mind on further reflection. Megathreads do tend to make discussions less focused, and even though I haven't read this article (since I am trying to avoid spoilers), it does seem like the issues brought up by it are probably worth having a focused discussion on.

        1 vote
      2. Deimos Link Parent
        Makes sense. I'll just delete my other one, it's not a big deal and we don't really need to spread out discussion.

        Makes sense. I'll just delete my other one, it's not a big deal and we don't really need to spread out discussion.

        1 vote