Food security and education, easier said than done, but, as a child of a lifelong smoker, I hope everyone gets with the program. The severity of these laws sound great, and the problems written...
Food security and education, easier said than done, but, as a child of a lifelong smoker, I hope everyone gets with the program. The severity of these laws sound great, and the problems written seem like nothing in comparison to the effects of smoking; they're short term, compared to a dramatically shortened life and a slew of lifelong medical problems for children mentioned in this article alone. Good luck NZ.
A discussion of the potential impacts of the NZ ban on smoking for anyone born after 2009. Also a discussion of how big tobacco companies are funding efforts to fight this ban. Note, the...
A discussion of the potential impacts of the NZ ban on smoking for anyone born after 2009.
Also a discussion of how big tobacco companies are funding efforts to fight this ban.
Note, the discussion is focused purely on Māori, native NZers who are more impacted than most kiwis.
Edit: There are four distinct voices quoted in the article, but they are interweaved as if they are one. Butler and Morice are smokers or ex smokers. Waa is a professor of public health. Reti is a very conservative medical doctor and politician (he was deputy leader of the main conservative political party for a year, and is against abortion, transition care and is articulates the reasons why banning cigarettes might harm the community.)
Identity politics are one of the strongest ways corporations can fight against things they don't want to happen (or market a product). We've seen it happen time and time again and people are still...
Identity politics are one of the strongest ways corporations can fight against things they don't want to happen (or market a product). We've seen it happen time and time again and people are still falling for it. The arguments only work because people are too afraid to be the bad guy and put their foot down.
Personally I don't care what anyone does, but smoking kills more people than any other substance abuse by far. Maybe its time people take a stiffer stance against things like this.
As OP mentioned, this article contains the views of four different people interviewed. The non-interview sections are purely factual and accurately portray smoking as harmful. Methods highlighted...
As OP mentioned, this article contains the views of four different people interviewed.
The non-interview sections are purely factual and accurately portray smoking as harmful. Methods highlighted that reduce it are consistently referred to as "successes" and put in a positive context.
One of people interviewed mentions the exact concern that tobacco companies are trying to influence the narrative.
Waa thinks these economic arguments are similarly overblown. "This is my conspiracy hat on, but we suspect that a lot of these arguments are put up by the tobacco industry" to keep their product in stores. Waa points to how dairy owners submitted some 1,000 complaints to the government, all of them following a single template. In any case, Waa has little sympathy for retailers insisting on selling tobacco "because they're making money out of my people dying."
NPR is doing its job portraying a variety of real views expressed by the Māori people and explicitly trying to validate concerns that they are not being given a say by providing them a mouthpiece. All the while surrounding those views with neutral and accurate context and data. As outsiders that is the only respectful way to report on this.
They're one of our few consistently thoughtful, neutral, and accurate media institutions we have and I see nothing wrong with this article.
Unfortunately this article mentions nothing at all about New Zealand's growing problem with vaping. According to Manatu Hauora's (Ministry of Health) own statistics the rate of vaping is rising...
Unfortunately this article mentions nothing at all about New Zealand's growing problem with vaping. According to Manatu Hauora's (Ministry of Health) own statistics the rate of vaping is rising faster than the rate of cigarette smoking is declining. Anecdotally, vaping in schools is rampant. This seems to be supported by Manatu Hauora's findings that rates of daily vaping are highest amongst young people (aged 18-24). Furthermore, 18% of daily vapers have never smoked cigarettes.
That's a surprising opinion from my perspective. Do you feel we should assume vaping is safe until proven unsafe? I'm not a doctor or an expert in vaping (although I am an optometrist working...
That's a surprising opinion from my perspective. Do you feel we should assume vaping is safe until proven unsafe?
I'm not a doctor or an expert in vaping (although I am an optometrist working first hand with people whose blindness has been caused by smoking), and I think you're right to say there's still a lot that we don't know yet. However, from a physical health point of view I think it's pretty clear that vaping is more harmful than not vaping. John's Hopkins Medicine has a good summary of the issues here: https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/5-truths-you-need-to-know-about-vaping
Having said that, people do all sorts of 'harmful' things for all sorts of reasons and I personally don't feel like government authorities necessarily can or should try to regulate all of these things out of existence. In fact one of my take-aways from the original article was that real change will only come about if a person wants to make a change. This is why a 'by Maori, for Maori' approach is needed in New Zealand rather than simply imposing harsher and harsher laws. Where I personally draw the line though is when children are being exposed to harm. This includes the harm from second hand smoke and the harm being done by the ability to easily access vaping products.
I don't know if I would necessarily say we assume it's safe, I just don't plan to focus any of my energy into counseling patients against it until we have clear data demonstrating it's harms, and...
I don't know if I would necessarily say we assume it's safe, I just don't plan to focus any of my energy into counseling patients against it until we have clear data demonstrating it's harms, and even then I would need those harms to be significant enough to warrant such a discussion
An example is alcohol. Yes it's honestly not "great" for you, but in moderation the impact it has is acceptable in my opinion
I don't want to give away too much of my career, but counseling patients on smoking cessation in the hospital environment is part of what I do, and until there is more data demonstrating exact harms of vaping it's just not on my radar of strongly counseling patients against the activity, other than being sure they recognize the impact it has on their wallets
FYI from that article you posted, the most significant issue would be vaping while continuing to smoke cigarettes, which while yes that is even worse than just smoking cigarettes I hope I have been clear and pointed out that no one should be doing that. Not only are you still at risk for lung cancer, the additive effect of nicotine from multiple sources does in fact cause more strain on your coronary arteries, leading to worsened effects
i think the biggest thing against any form of smoke/vapor inhalation (and I'm actually including candles and marijuana in this theory) is the smoke/vapor is inhaled into the lungs and inhaling...
i think the biggest thing against any form of smoke/vapor inhalation (and I'm actually including candles and marijuana in this theory) is the smoke/vapor is inhaled into the lungs and inhaling stuff that's not supposed to be there as a problem.
The one benefit over those is that the vapor is noticeably cooler, and so it's marginally less bad than hot smoke. But you're still adding a bunch of particulate matter to your lungs, and that's...
The one benefit over those is that the vapor is noticeably cooler, and so it's marginally less bad than hot smoke. But you're still adding a bunch of particulate matter to your lungs, and that's not great.
Personally I think it's only when there's combustion. I'm not yet convinced that vapor itself is significantly worse than say living in a very densely populated city
Personally I think it's only when there's combustion. I'm not yet convinced that vapor itself is significantly worse than say living in a very densely populated city
I’m not a smoker, and the household I grew up in never had smokers, so I don’t have any first-hand experience with it, and therefore I don’t really understand how addictive it is compared to other...
I’m not a smoker, and the household I grew up in never had smokers, so I don’t have any first-hand experience with it, and therefore I don’t really understand how addictive it is compared to other addictive substances.
However, I don’t think addiction alone is enough to justify banning a substance, so I’d like to see whether there are associated harms with nicotine before I’d support a ban. I feel like there’s no discussion around a ban on caffeine, so that shows that a substance simply being addictive isn’t enough to warrant scrutiny.
Nicotine on its own is bad for your blood pressure and arteries. Caffeine can be bad for your cardiovascular health as well. But it’s much easier to quit or reduce your consumption. People often...
Nicotine on its own is bad for your blood pressure and arteries. Caffeine can be bad for your cardiovascular health as well. But it’s much easier to quit or reduce your consumption. People often spend years trying and failing to quit nicotine. I’ve never heard of someone failing to quit caffeine after being told they need to for their health (although I’m sure plenty do).
I mean from a lung cancer perspective. If people drink coffee every single day and no one says anything, who am I to tell people to stop nicotine (which yes I do recognize is significantly more...
I mean from a lung cancer perspective. If people drink coffee every single day and no one says anything, who am I to tell people to stop nicotine (which yes I do recognize is significantly more addictive than caffeine) if the long term health consequences are no longer there
The main way it affects heart health though is by exacerbating hypertension, so if you don't have this at baseline you shouldn't be too impacted
Do you mind if I throw some anecdotal stuff at you? I used to vape cannabis oils and noticed that while doing so, I would often end-up with severe coughs and phlgem production. Those effects were...
Do you mind if I throw some anecdotal stuff at you?
I used to vape cannabis oils and noticed that while doing so, I would often end-up with severe coughs and phlgem production. Those effects were enough to get me to spend a lot of money on a portable dry herb vaping system, which alleviated the problem altogether for me.
My main concern at the time was that I was inhaling stuff like Propylene Glycol which just didn't seem like a great idea. I've since quit everything altogether, but that smokers cough I had when I wasn't even smoking was concerning to me.
There's oftentimes (from what I have read) a lot more added to cannabis oils versus nicotine juice from vaping, so your anecdotal reports on the dry herb versus vape tracks in my opinion Congrats...
There's oftentimes (from what I have read) a lot more added to cannabis oils versus nicotine juice from vaping, so your anecdotal reports on the dry herb versus vape tracks in my opinion
Congrats on stopping everything though dude! That's by no means an easy task, and you should be proud of yourself
FYI, everything I've said in my previous messages applies to nicotine vapes. THC-based vapes are a different discussion, as there is even less regulation or certainty of what goes into the cartridges
Sounds like this law is dead anyway, and as for concerns about growing use of vaping brought up elsewhere in this thread, the government plans to actually promote vaping....
Sounds like this law is dead anyway, and as for concerns about growing use of vaping brought up elsewhere in this thread, the government plans to actually promote vaping.
The new government also plans to repeal tobacco restrictions approved last year by the previous government, including requirements for low nicotine levels in cigarettes, fewer retailers and a lifetime ban for youth.
Luxon said his government disagreed with parts of the policy, including concentrating distribution. He said smoking rates had been coming down for 30 years.
“We will continue to make sure we have good education programs and encourage people to take up vapes as a cessation tool,” Luxon said.
As someone who has seen the horrors of smoking and its effect on lungs and health up close in my life, I wholeheartedly support this move. Nicotine and Alcohol are the only two legally permissible...
As someone who has seen the horrors of smoking and its effect on lungs and health up close in my life, I wholeheartedly support this move. Nicotine and Alcohol are the only two legally permissible addictive substances which should be banned by default except in special situations (for eg. alcohol as prescribed medicine to keep blood pressure in check).
The only reason they aren't banned everywhere is because govt gets its tax revenue from cigarette companies and the world (in general) is capitalist in nature. If NZ has decided to do away with that revenue and wants to put ethics above profits, full kudos to them and they have my full support.
Likewise. And not just on the smoker, but for everyone around them. I've been suffering lung problems since I was a toddler that have been primarily attributed to heavy second hand smoke exposure...
Likewise. And not just on the smoker, but for everyone around them. I've been suffering lung problems since I was a toddler that have been primarily attributed to heavy second hand smoke exposure as an infant/toddler. My Dad quit smoking indoors when I was three after it was diagnosed... but by that point, I already had a life of wheezing and asthma attacks ahead of me. I'm generally pretty open about people doing things that only impact themself, but smoking just has too much impact on everyone around you, including those too young to do anything about it.
Food security and education, easier said than done, but, as a child of a lifelong smoker, I hope everyone gets with the program. The severity of these laws sound great, and the problems written seem like nothing in comparison to the effects of smoking; they're short term, compared to a dramatically shortened life and a slew of lifelong medical problems for children mentioned in this article alone. Good luck NZ.
A discussion of the potential impacts of the NZ ban on smoking for anyone born after 2009.
Also a discussion of how big tobacco companies are funding efforts to fight this ban.
Note, the discussion is focused purely on Māori, native NZers who are more impacted than most kiwis.
Edit: There are four distinct voices quoted in the article, but they are interweaved as if they are one. Butler and Morice are smokers or ex smokers. Waa is a professor of public health. Reti is a very conservative medical doctor and politician (he was deputy leader of the main conservative political party for a year, and is against abortion, transition care and is articulates the reasons why banning cigarettes might harm the community.)
Identity politics are one of the strongest ways corporations can fight against things they don't want to happen (or market a product). We've seen it happen time and time again and people are still falling for it. The arguments only work because people are too afraid to be the bad guy and put their foot down.
Personally I don't care what anyone does, but smoking kills more people than any other substance abuse by far. Maybe its time people take a stiffer stance against things like this.
As OP mentioned, this article contains the views of four different people interviewed.
The non-interview sections are purely factual and accurately portray smoking as harmful. Methods highlighted that reduce it are consistently referred to as "successes" and put in a positive context.
One of people interviewed mentions the exact concern that tobacco companies are trying to influence the narrative.
NPR is doing its job portraying a variety of real views expressed by the Māori people and explicitly trying to validate concerns that they are not being given a say by providing them a mouthpiece. All the while surrounding those views with neutral and accurate context and data. As outsiders that is the only respectful way to report on this.
They're one of our few consistently thoughtful, neutral, and accurate media institutions we have and I see nothing wrong with this article.
Smokefree law changes a 'completely backwards step' - health experts
Unfortunately this article mentions nothing at all about New Zealand's growing problem with vaping. According to Manatu Hauora's (Ministry of Health) own statistics the rate of vaping is rising faster than the rate of cigarette smoking is declining. Anecdotally, vaping in schools is rampant. This seems to be supported by Manatu Hauora's findings that rates of daily vaping are highest amongst young people (aged 18-24). Furthermore, 18% of daily vapers have never smoked cigarettes.
Link to Manatu Hauora: https://www.health.govt.nz/publication/smoking-status-daily-vapers-new-zealand-health-survey-2017-18-2021-22
Truth be told I’m waiting for more evidence on the harms of vaping (besides blood pressure elevation) before I get on the anti-vape train
That's a surprising opinion from my perspective. Do you feel we should assume vaping is safe until proven unsafe?
I'm not a doctor or an expert in vaping (although I am an optometrist working first hand with people whose blindness has been caused by smoking), and I think you're right to say there's still a lot that we don't know yet. However, from a physical health point of view I think it's pretty clear that vaping is more harmful than not vaping. John's Hopkins Medicine has a good summary of the issues here: https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/5-truths-you-need-to-know-about-vaping
Having said that, people do all sorts of 'harmful' things for all sorts of reasons and I personally don't feel like government authorities necessarily can or should try to regulate all of these things out of existence. In fact one of my take-aways from the original article was that real change will only come about if a person wants to make a change. This is why a 'by Maori, for Maori' approach is needed in New Zealand rather than simply imposing harsher and harsher laws. Where I personally draw the line though is when children are being exposed to harm. This includes the harm from second hand smoke and the harm being done by the ability to easily access vaping products.
I don't know if I would necessarily say we assume it's safe, I just don't plan to focus any of my energy into counseling patients against it until we have clear data demonstrating it's harms, and even then I would need those harms to be significant enough to warrant such a discussion
An example is alcohol. Yes it's honestly not "great" for you, but in moderation the impact it has is acceptable in my opinion
I don't want to give away too much of my career, but counseling patients on smoking cessation in the hospital environment is part of what I do, and until there is more data demonstrating exact harms of vaping it's just not on my radar of strongly counseling patients against the activity, other than being sure they recognize the impact it has on their wallets
FYI from that article you posted, the most significant issue would be vaping while continuing to smoke cigarettes, which while yes that is even worse than just smoking cigarettes I hope I have been clear and pointed out that no one should be doing that. Not only are you still at risk for lung cancer, the additive effect of nicotine from multiple sources does in fact cause more strain on your coronary arteries, leading to worsened effects
i think the biggest thing against any form of smoke/vapor inhalation (and I'm actually including candles and marijuana in this theory) is the smoke/vapor is inhaled into the lungs and inhaling stuff that's not supposed to be there as a problem.
The one benefit over those is that the vapor is noticeably cooler, and so it's marginally less bad than hot smoke. But you're still adding a bunch of particulate matter to your lungs, and that's not great.
Personally I think it's only when there's combustion. I'm not yet convinced that vapor itself is significantly worse than say living in a very densely populated city
Isn't a nicotine addiction bad? You're permanently tethering yourself to a substance that affects your heart health and drains your wallet.
I’m not a smoker, and the household I grew up in never had smokers, so I don’t have any first-hand experience with it, and therefore I don’t really understand how addictive it is compared to other addictive substances.
However, I don’t think addiction alone is enough to justify banning a substance, so I’d like to see whether there are associated harms with nicotine before I’d support a ban. I feel like there’s no discussion around a ban on caffeine, so that shows that a substance simply being addictive isn’t enough to warrant scrutiny.
Nicotine on its own is bad for your blood pressure and arteries. Caffeine can be bad for your cardiovascular health as well. But it’s much easier to quit or reduce your consumption. People often spend years trying and failing to quit nicotine. I’ve never heard of someone failing to quit caffeine after being told they need to for their health (although I’m sure plenty do).
I mean from a lung cancer perspective. If people drink coffee every single day and no one says anything, who am I to tell people to stop nicotine (which yes I do recognize is significantly more addictive than caffeine) if the long term health consequences are no longer there
The main way it affects heart health though is by exacerbating hypertension, so if you don't have this at baseline you shouldn't be too impacted
Do you mind if I throw some anecdotal stuff at you?
I used to vape cannabis oils and noticed that while doing so, I would often end-up with severe coughs and phlgem production. Those effects were enough to get me to spend a lot of money on a portable dry herb vaping system, which alleviated the problem altogether for me.
My main concern at the time was that I was inhaling stuff like Propylene Glycol which just didn't seem like a great idea. I've since quit everything altogether, but that smokers cough I had when I wasn't even smoking was concerning to me.
There's oftentimes (from what I have read) a lot more added to cannabis oils versus nicotine juice from vaping, so your anecdotal reports on the dry herb versus vape tracks in my opinion
Congrats on stopping everything though dude! That's by no means an easy task, and you should be proud of yourself
FYI, everything I've said in my previous messages applies to nicotine vapes. THC-based vapes are a different discussion, as there is even less regulation or certainty of what goes into the cartridges
Thanks, it was worth it. Going on 5 years now.
Sounds like this law is dead anyway, and as for concerns about growing use of vaping brought up elsewhere in this thread, the government plans to actually promote vaping.
https://apnews.com/article/christopher-luxon-new-zealand-prime-minister-f3f6c4c80b75521647b8e61e5ff71673
As someone who has seen the horrors of smoking and its effect on lungs and health up close in my life, I wholeheartedly support this move. Nicotine and Alcohol are the only two legally permissible addictive substances which should be banned by default except in special situations (for eg. alcohol as prescribed medicine to keep blood pressure in check).
The only reason they aren't banned everywhere is because govt gets its tax revenue from cigarette companies and the world (in general) is capitalist in nature. If NZ has decided to do away with that revenue and wants to put ethics above profits, full kudos to them and they have my full support.
Likewise. And not just on the smoker, but for everyone around them. I've been suffering lung problems since I was a toddler that have been primarily attributed to heavy second hand smoke exposure as an infant/toddler. My Dad quit smoking indoors when I was three after it was diagnosed... but by that point, I already had a life of wheezing and asthma attacks ahead of me. I'm generally pretty open about people doing things that only impact themself, but smoking just has too much impact on everyone around you, including those too young to do anything about it.