I'm not sure why everyone seems to always only report data from Johns Hopkins University, but I've been following worldometer data for COVID-19, and it looks like the JHU data consistently lags...
I'm not sure why everyone seems to always only report data from Johns Hopkins University, but I've been following worldometer data for COVID-19, and it looks like the JHU data consistently lags behind.
As an example, right now, the JHU data shows 665,150 US COVID-19 deaths, while worldometer shows 682,570.
Similarly, while JHU may show that 1 in 500 in the US have died from COVID-19, worldometer also tracks that statistic, and shows 488 as the current number.
I'll admit, I wasn't happy with them at first... for about a week. But a sensible person gets over it quickly, and I didn't miss getting sick over the winter.
I'll admit, I wasn't happy with them at first... for about a week. But a sensible person gets over it quickly, and I didn't miss getting sick over the winter.
Yea, between the isolation and mask wearing the only times I felt remotely sick since Febuary 2020 was after me and immediate family got vaccinnated. Once for the vaccinne recovery, and another...
Yea, between the isolation and mask wearing the only times I felt remotely sick since Febuary 2020 was after me and immediate family got vaccinnated. Once for the vaccinne recovery, and another cruddiness, like a light cold, for a day after seeing any new people for the first time in > 1 year.
Of all the silver linings, that one is my favorite. I think going forward I'm going to be masking up a lot more between November and March, regardless of COVID.
This image is one I saw on facebook that best exemplifies why masks work. It's not about protecting oneself, it's about protecting other people. A mask, even a terrible one, reduces the number of...
This image is one I saw on facebook that best exemplifies why masks work.
It's not about protecting oneself, it's about protecting other people. A mask, even a terrible one, reduces the number of particles you're shooting into the air as you breathe.
Delta is more transmissible. Dropping the mask mandates escalated its growth during what should have been a lull in cases. It's going to be harsh winter, especially for the unvaccinated.
Once the vaccinnes are permitted for the <12 crowd, my sympathy for the unvaccinnated (for non-medical reasons) largely disappears. They figuritively chose to die on a hill to avoid getting it, and now they can literally die for their cause. I hope they are happy.
I think my post was confusingly worded - I blame lack of sleep, and I’ve taken a nap now :). I understand how effective masks are. My point was that in the US, the relationship with masks seem to...
I think my post was confusingly worded - I blame lack of sleep, and I’ve taken a nap now :). I understand how effective masks are. My point was that in the US, the relationship with masks seem to be a lot more political than not. And to that point, there are both a lot of people not wearing them as a political statement, as well as a lot of people wearing them as a political statement.
The latter might spread the virus less but it’s still toxic behaviour, and the stories I’ve heard from certain overly paranoid places aren’t great.
A huge problem I had in Belgium was the inconsistency of rules. Any inconsistency gives ammo to antivax group and reduces overall willingness to participate in some of the more important rules. In fact I wrote a post about it on Tildes earlier this year. And indeed, although a lot of the inconsistencies have since been fixed (mostly because the rules have largely been dropped in favour of COVID passes), we are now paying the price of those early mistakes by dealing with antivax people who often got there because of those issues.
In that mindset I believe Biden’s move was correct. It doesn’t matter if a rule is effective, if people aren’t willing to follow it. And its ongoing presence can harm future, more important efforts in curtailing the disease.
The number of times I've seen precautions dismissed as political... And I still don't see it. Everyone I know who is vaccinated and still masking does it because they themselves are at greater...
And to that point, there are both a lot of people not wearing them as a political statement, as well as a lot of people wearing them as a political statement.
The latter might spread the virus less but it’s still toxic behaviour, and the stories I’ve heard from certain overly paranoid places aren’t great.
The number of times I've seen precautions dismissed as political... And I still don't see it. Everyone I know who is vaccinated and still masking does it because they themselves are at greater risk, they know people who are, or they just care about random strangers who are.
Plus, even when you're vaccinated and low risk, COVID can really suck. If you're living in a place with the highest levels of community transmission (basically every state in the US)... I don't understand how masking is "toxic."
I think this is largely true but there is also some questionable masking going on. E.g. standing outdoors with no one in your vicinity and your mask on is not really a public health precaution and...
The number of times I've seen precautions dismissed as political... And I still don't see it. Everyone I know who is vaccinated and still masking does it because they themselves are at greater risk, they know people who are, or they just care about random strangers who are.
I think this is largely true but there is also some questionable masking going on. E.g. standing outdoors with no one in your vicinity and your mask on is not really a public health precaution and I've seen plenty of that.
Now whether that's a political statement, convenience, ignorance, or just anxiety about being judged by someone else I don't claim to know. I don't really care at all, but I think what /u/Adys is talking about is people trying to enforce some of these more extreme over-cautious norms. I haven't seen any of that where I'm at but I'm also in a more conservative area.
Is that... bad? I find it much easier to consistently mask if I just put it before I leave my house and then take it off when I get back. Sometimes that means I find myself wearing one outdoors...
E.g. standing outdoors with no one in your vicinity and your mask on is not really a public health precaution and I've seen plenty of that.
Is that... bad? I find it much easier to consistently mask if I just put it before I leave my house and then take it off when I get back. Sometimes that means I find myself wearing one outdoors when I'm not near anyone.
Maybe someone somewhere is trying to mandate outdoor masks when no one else is close by, but where I live, we don't even have mask mandates indoors. I struggle to see how some individuals being overcautious is the same as politicians literally banning schools from mandating masks.
Correct, those cases are what I'm referring to. And I want to repeat my conclusion: It's not masking itself that is toxic, it's the politicized attitude around it that poisons the well. Also hey,...
Correct, those cases are what I'm referring to.
And I want to repeat my conclusion:
It doesn’t matter if a rule is effective, if people aren’t willing to follow it.
It's not masking itself that is toxic, it's the politicized attitude around it that poisons the well.
Also hey, to be clear this is all my opinion and theory on masking and public health. I'm pro mask, but I'm also highly pro "sensible rules". See my february post:
But when we had universal mask mandates, they were enforceable. No mask? No entry, sorry. It didn't matter if people weren't willing to wear a mask in a doctor's office, because they weren't let...
But when we had universal mask mandates, they were enforceable. No mask? No entry, sorry. It didn't matter if people weren't willing to wear a mask in a doctor's office, because they weren't let in and thus vulnerable populations were protected. It was effective.
As soon as the US government said vaccinated people didn't have to wear them, the new rule of "wear a mask if you're unvaccinated" became completely unenforceable. All someone has to do is say "oh yeah, I'm vaccinated," and it's all good.
I dunno, I guess I just have a very different view of "sensible" than other folks. I'm moderately at-risk even with a vaccine, and I'm getting fed up with living in a hotspot where no one wears masks and thus I'm stuck at home.
This, I'm all for nudging undecided people towards getting vaccinated via positive reinforcements but differentiating between (un)vaccinated in hard to enforce areas like mask mandates makes the...
This, I'm all for nudging undecided people towards getting vaccinated via positive reinforcements but differentiating between (un)vaccinated in hard to enforce areas like mask mandates makes the whole situation more complex and increases difficulty for the average citizen to understand what they can and cannot due.
I've been there, and this followup does help immensely. I do however disagree with most of what you've said, other than the politicization of the issue. There is no paranoia when it comes to...
I think my post was confusingly worded - I blame lack of sleep
I've been there, and this followup does help immensely. I do however disagree with most of what you've said, other than the politicization of the issue.
There is no paranoia when it comes to spreading the transmission of disease. If anything, the kind of relaxed attitude is why the US hasn't really gotten COVID under control in any measurable fashion. Everything you've said about Belgium's inconsistencies is 100x more true in the USA, given that the USA is larger than all of Europe. The strong individualist streak in the USA means that inconveniencing themselves is often more important than protecting others.
Dropping the mask mandate (which is de-facto what Biden did) vastly introduced more inconsistently, because even in very dense areas still undergoing outbreaks the policies effectively became "do whatever you want, we don't care anymore."
I saw people crowded face-to-face in an outdoor bar, maskless, in August, when new cases were higher than they were around February of this year. Even in places where it's supposed to be mandated enforcement is virtually 0 because there's no longer people at the door enforcing it.
The CDC recommends people -- even those fully vaccinated -- wear masks indoors in areas with substantial or high community transmission. More than 99% of the population lives in a county with one of those designations.
The fact that 99% of the nation should now be required to wear masks again is quite a tell. If it was indeed paranoia to keep up with mask wearing, this wouldn't be nearly as big of a problem. Especially since the lifting of the mandates means there will be even more whining from the anti-mask crowd, because they didn't like it to begin with. But since wearing a mask was the only way they were permitted indoors almost anywhere they did comply, at least begrudingly , if only half-assed. Which is still better than nothing.
My kid's preschool, despite being in person for almost the entirety of the pandemic, didn't have a single outbreak. Because they took substantial precautions, including enforcing face masks for all children over the age of 3 to this day, and didn't permit any adults to go maskless even for dropoffs.
The rules were effective. Even if there were violators, there was still more compliance than dropping the rules entirely, which is what Biden's announcement resulted in. Some states even have laws now that make it harder to make these mandates going forward, regardless of how badly they're needed.
...so far
I'm not sure why everyone seems to always only report data from Johns Hopkins University, but I've been following worldometer data for COVID-19, and it looks like the JHU data consistently lags behind.
As an example, right now, the JHU data shows 665,150 US COVID-19 deaths, while worldometer shows 682,570.
Similarly, while JHU may show that 1 in 500 in the US have died from COVID-19, worldometer also tracks that statistic, and shows 488 as the current number.
I'm going to dig up some recent history.
I said there I'd happily eat my words if I was wrong. Sadly I think I was right.
I disagree with this correlation. The US has a largely unhealthy relationship with masks in the first place.
I'll admit, I wasn't happy with them at first... for about a week. But a sensible person gets over it quickly, and I didn't miss getting sick over the winter.
Yea, between the isolation and mask wearing the only times I felt remotely sick since Febuary 2020 was after me and immediate family got vaccinnated. Once for the vaccinne recovery, and another cruddiness, like a light cold, for a day after seeing any new people for the first time in > 1 year.
Of all the silver linings, that one is my favorite. I think going forward I'm going to be masking up a lot more between November and March, regardless of COVID.
This image is one I saw on facebook that best exemplifies why masks work.
It's not about protecting oneself, it's about protecting other people. A mask, even a terrible one, reduces the number of particles you're shooting into the air as you breathe.
Delta is more transmissible. Dropping the mask mandates escalated its growth during what should have been a lull in cases. It's going to be harsh winter, especially for the unvaccinated.
Once the vaccinnes are permitted for the <12 crowd, my sympathy for the unvaccinnated (for non-medical reasons) largely disappears. They figuritively chose to die on a hill to avoid getting it, and now they can literally die for their cause. I hope they are happy.
I think my post was confusingly worded - I blame lack of sleep, and I’ve taken a nap now :). I understand how effective masks are. My point was that in the US, the relationship with masks seem to be a lot more political than not. And to that point, there are both a lot of people not wearing them as a political statement, as well as a lot of people wearing them as a political statement.
The latter might spread the virus less but it’s still toxic behaviour, and the stories I’ve heard from certain overly paranoid places aren’t great.
A huge problem I had in Belgium was the inconsistency of rules. Any inconsistency gives ammo to antivax group and reduces overall willingness to participate in some of the more important rules. In fact I wrote a post about it on Tildes earlier this year. And indeed, although a lot of the inconsistencies have since been fixed (mostly because the rules have largely been dropped in favour of COVID passes), we are now paying the price of those early mistakes by dealing with antivax people who often got there because of those issues.
In that mindset I believe Biden’s move was correct. It doesn’t matter if a rule is effective, if people aren’t willing to follow it. And its ongoing presence can harm future, more important efforts in curtailing the disease.
The number of times I've seen precautions dismissed as political... And I still don't see it. Everyone I know who is vaccinated and still masking does it because they themselves are at greater risk, they know people who are, or they just care about random strangers who are.
Plus, even when you're vaccinated and low risk, COVID can really suck. If you're living in a place with the highest levels of community transmission (basically every state in the US)... I don't understand how masking is "toxic."
I think this is largely true but there is also some questionable masking going on. E.g. standing outdoors with no one in your vicinity and your mask on is not really a public health precaution and I've seen plenty of that.
Now whether that's a political statement, convenience, ignorance, or just anxiety about being judged by someone else I don't claim to know. I don't really care at all, but I think what /u/Adys is talking about is people trying to enforce some of these more extreme over-cautious norms. I haven't seen any of that where I'm at but I'm also in a more conservative area.
Is that... bad? I find it much easier to consistently mask if I just put it before I leave my house and then take it off when I get back. Sometimes that means I find myself wearing one outdoors when I'm not near anyone.
Maybe someone somewhere is trying to mandate outdoor masks when no one else is close by, but where I live, we don't even have mask mandates indoors. I struggle to see how some individuals being overcautious is the same as politicians literally banning schools from mandating masks.
No, not at all. Like I said, I don't really care if people want to do this and a lot of it is probably convenience as you say.
It's definitely not.
Correct, those cases are what I'm referring to.
And I want to repeat my conclusion:
It's not masking itself that is toxic, it's the politicized attitude around it that poisons the well.
Also hey, to be clear this is all my opinion and theory on masking and public health. I'm pro mask, but I'm also highly pro "sensible rules". See my february post:
https://tildes.net/~health.coronavirus/ve8/covid_19_in_belgium_february_2021_edition
But when we had universal mask mandates, they were enforceable. No mask? No entry, sorry. It didn't matter if people weren't willing to wear a mask in a doctor's office, because they weren't let in and thus vulnerable populations were protected. It was effective.
As soon as the US government said vaccinated people didn't have to wear them, the new rule of "wear a mask if you're unvaccinated" became completely unenforceable. All someone has to do is say "oh yeah, I'm vaccinated," and it's all good.
I dunno, I guess I just have a very different view of "sensible" than other folks. I'm moderately at-risk even with a vaccine, and I'm getting fed up with living in a hotspot where no one wears masks and thus I'm stuck at home.
This, I'm all for nudging undecided people towards getting vaccinated via positive reinforcements but differentiating between (un)vaccinated in hard to enforce areas like mask mandates makes the whole situation more complex and increases difficulty for the average citizen to understand what they can and cannot due.
I've been there, and this followup does help immensely. I do however disagree with most of what you've said, other than the politicization of the issue.
There is no paranoia when it comes to spreading the transmission of disease. If anything, the kind of relaxed attitude is why the US hasn't really gotten COVID under control in any measurable fashion. Everything you've said about Belgium's inconsistencies is 100x more true in the USA, given that the USA is larger than all of Europe. The strong individualist streak in the USA means that inconveniencing themselves is often more important than protecting others.
Dropping the mask mandate (which is de-facto what Biden did) vastly introduced more inconsistently, because even in very dense areas still undergoing outbreaks the policies effectively became "do whatever you want, we don't care anymore."
I saw people crowded face-to-face in an outdoor bar, maskless, in August, when new cases were higher than they were around February of this year. Even in places where it's supposed to be mandated enforcement is virtually 0 because there's no longer people at the door enforcing it.
The fact that 99% of the nation should now be required to wear masks again is quite a tell. If it was indeed paranoia to keep up with mask wearing, this wouldn't be nearly as big of a problem. Especially since the lifting of the mandates means there will be even more whining from the anti-mask crowd, because they didn't like it to begin with. But since wearing a mask was the only way they were permitted indoors almost anywhere they did comply, at least begrudingly , if only half-assed. Which is still better than nothing.
My kid's preschool, despite being in person for almost the entirety of the pandemic, didn't have a single outbreak. Because they took substantial precautions, including enforcing face masks for all children over the age of 3 to this day, and didn't permit any adults to go maskless even for dropoffs.
The rules were effective. Even if there were violators, there was still more compliance than dropping the rules entirely, which is what Biden's announcement resulted in. Some states even have laws now that make it harder to make these mandates going forward, regardless of how badly they're needed.