This seems to me to be very similar to the toilet issue, where transgender people were legally barred from going to the toilet they wanted to. One would think that the LGBT community would be a...
This seems to me to be very similar to the toilet issue, where transgender people were legally barred from going to the toilet they wanted to. One would think that the LGBT community would be a bit more sensitive to that, but I guess not.
You probably shouldn't take the actions of the staff of a single gay sauna in London, and the complaint of a single patron there as representative of the LGBT+ community as a whole. And by the...
You probably shouldn't take the actions of the staff of a single gay sauna in London, and the complaint of a single patron there as representative of the LGBT+ community as a whole. And by the sounds of it this might have simply been an honest mistake by the sauna staff based on their misunderstanding the requirements of their business license, which the borough council later clarified to them does not prohibit trans men from using their facility, rather than a case of intentional discrimination.
The fact that this happened is still disappointing to see and hear about, but IMO it's hardly comparable to the serious discrimination going on elsewhere in the world regarding bathroom rights and restrictions for trans people.
Maybe not. But nor is this an isolated incident. I have seen quite a few gay men on the internet writing that they do not accept trans men as men. For example, someone posted a question about this...
You probably shouldn't take the actions of the staff of a single gay sauna in London, and the complaint of a single patron there as representative of the LGBT+ community as a whole.
Maybe not. But nor is this an isolated incident. I have seen quite a few gay men on the internet writing that they do not accept trans men as men. For example, someone posted a question about this story in the totally unmoderated subreddit /r/AskGayBros, and some of the opinions expressed there are quite transphobic. Similar opinions get posted in other subreddits, but they get removed by the moderators; /r/AskGayBros is the best place to see unmoderated transphobia like this.
People like to think that gay men are enlightened and compassionate because of their experience as a discriminated-against minority, but, deep down, we're just flawed humans like everyone else.
Yeah, sadly I am aware of them already. If you want to go down a rabbit hole of trans hate, check out some of the "sister subreddits" in the sidebar of the Gender Critical Feminism subreddit. Here...
Yeah, sadly I am aware of them already. If you want to go down a rabbit hole of trans hate, check out some of the "sister subreddits" in the sidebar of the Gender Critical Feminism subreddit. Here is a particularly "fun" one to start you off:
Clarification A: If you were born male but "identify as" a woman, you are not allowed. If you were born male and "identify as" non-binary or some other gender, you are not allowed. If you have a dick, you are not allowed. If you chose to have your dick removed or otherwise modified, you are not allowed. If you have any questions about your being allowed here, DO NOT MAKE A POST, send a mod mail.
Clarification B: If you were born female (or assigned female, if you are intersex) you are welcome to hang out here. If you were born female and you "identify as" a man, you are free to hang out here, but keep in mind we will refer to uteruses, vaginas, vulvas, clitorises, and breasts as part of female anatomy. Telling us "not all men have dicks" will get you banned. This space centers around female positivity, and you are welcome here to have access to that, but referring to your junk as things like "my dick" will get you banned as well. If you were born female and "identify as" non-binary you are free to hang out here. But aren't we all, like, non-binary?
Which makes their Rule 3: No bigotry towards other women incredibly ironic given that's exactly what Rule 1 is.
I remember well the "dangle" rules of Women's Music Festivals past, where any penis-bearing person over the age of 5 was banned, and even fully transitioned women were unwelcome. This is sheerest...
I remember well the "dangle" rules of Women's Music Festivals past, where any penis-bearing person over the age of 5 was banned, and even fully transitioned women were unwelcome. This is sheerest lunacy, clinging to invalid binary certainties and giving into the worst of human tribalism.
If you fear that the mere presence of male genitalia (or male chromosomes, or "patriarchy") is a rape or solidarity threat, you should see a doctor about that. If the presence of female genitalia is so offensive that you can't countenance pussy cooties in your men's-only space, you may be an infant in an adult suit.
I know there have been and will be malign actors who insist on intruding where they're not welcome, but they invariably act out so badly that gender boundaries are the least of the rules they transgress.
Awesome that we now have TERMs as well as TERFs. /s While I understand the desire to have spaces which provide the comfort of zero challenge to tribal identity, there's no excuse for doing this in...
Awesome that we now have TERMs as well as TERFs. /s
While I understand the desire to have spaces which provide the comfort of zero challenge to tribal identity, there's no excuse for doing this in a nominally public space, to someone who conforms to the expressed rules. You don't get to apply secret club rules like "must have penis" in a public space.
Sure and I am not denying that discrimination against transgendered people occurs even in the gay community, but IMO it's not representative of the community as a whole.... and in this case it...
Sure and I am not denying that discrimination against transgendered people occurs even in the gay community, but IMO it's not representative of the community as a whole.... and in this case it genuinely does seem like it was just a result of a misunderstanding of the requirements of their business license, not intentional discrimination:
After checking with the council, staff have admitted that they were wrong to remove the male patron and have apologised to him.
However, it is understood that the transgender man does not intend to sue for discrimination, telling Gay Star news: “I feel this is enough education for the sauna to know their laws and to get awareness. Also, don’t want to get a gay space closed down.”
A Tower Hamlets Council spokesman said: “The licensee in this case has sought clarification from the council as to whether our licensing conditions impose any restrictions based on gender identification. They do not.
“We understand the venue has now clarified that transgender men will be welcomed in future.”
Paul Twocock, director of campaigns at the gay rights charity Stonewall, said: “There’s widespread misunderstanding about the legislation on this issue. Trans people’s right to use single-sex spaces that match their gender is already settled in law.
“The 2010 Equality Act clearly protects trans people from being discriminated against when accessing services. We’d encourage local government authorities to take steps to ensure all service providers are clear on how to support trans people.”
I agree. But I think we also can't try to write the phenomenon off as just one or two bad apples. Sadly, there's a significant number of gay men who refuse to accept trans men as their brethren....
IMO it's not representative of the community as a whole....
I agree. But I think we also can't try to write the phenomenon off as just one or two bad apples. Sadly, there's a significant number of gay men who refuse to accept trans men as their brethren.
in this case it genuinely does seem like it was just a result of a misunderstanding of the requirements of their business license, not intentional discrimination:
That's good. I figured it might be something like that.
I was merely trying to caution against reading too much in to this particular article or generalizing too much based on it, is all... not trying to imply there is no transphobia within the...
I was merely trying to caution against reading too much in to this particular article or generalizing too much based on it, is all... not trying to imply there is no transphobia within the community or it isn't something that needs to be addressed.
I keep running into isolated instances of like... "vaginaphobia" or something like this. There's a site I used to browse that used to be exclusively gay before it opened up something like a decade...
I keep running into isolated instances of like... "vaginaphobia" or something like this.
There's a site I used to browse that used to be exclusively gay before it opened up something like a decade ago. The owner's gay, the rules are warped to give gay men a little extra leeway, any issues a woman has are ignored until enough noise is made to get that woman banned along with any actual corrective action. And it's not just the admin, there's a handful of seriously aggressively misogynist gay men who will actively block every woman they come in contact with to the point that it makes normal discussion difficult when those people are involved because blocking hides messages.
It's even more ridiculous when it comes to transmen. You'd think they'd be able to empathize better with someone whose situation is so similar but I guess even within the LGBT+ community there's plenty of hate and judgement to go around.
This seems to me to be very similar to the toilet issue, where transgender people were legally barred from going to the toilet they wanted to. One would think that the LGBT community would be a bit more sensitive to that, but I guess not.
You probably shouldn't take the actions of the staff of a single gay sauna in London, and the complaint of a single patron there as representative of the LGBT+ community as a whole. And by the sounds of it this might have simply been an honest mistake by the sauna staff based on their misunderstanding the requirements of their business license, which the borough council later clarified to them does not prohibit trans men from using their facility, rather than a case of intentional discrimination.
The fact that this happened is still disappointing to see and hear about, but IMO it's hardly comparable to the serious discrimination going on elsewhere in the world regarding bathroom rights and restrictions for trans people.
Maybe not. But nor is this an isolated incident. I have seen quite a few gay men on the internet writing that they do not accept trans men as men. For example, someone posted a question about this story in the totally unmoderated subreddit /r/AskGayBros, and some of the opinions expressed there are quite transphobic. Similar opinions get posted in other subreddits, but they get removed by the moderators; /r/AskGayBros is the best place to see unmoderated transphobia like this.
People like to think that gay men are enlightened and compassionate because of their experience as a discriminated-against minority, but, deep down, we're just flawed humans like everyone else.
P.S. I just found a related post in /r/GenderCriticalGuys. There's a whole subreddit for men - including gay men - who reject transgender people.
Yeah, sadly I am aware of them already. If you want to go down a rabbit hole of trans hate, check out some of the "sister subreddits" in the sidebar of the Gender Critical Feminism subreddit. Here is a particularly "fun" one to start you off:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ActualWomen/
Which makes their
Rule 3: No bigotry towards other womenincredibly ironic given that's exactly what Rule 1 is.I remember well the "dangle" rules of Women's Music Festivals past, where any penis-bearing person over the age of 5 was banned, and even fully transitioned women were unwelcome. This is sheerest lunacy, clinging to invalid binary certainties and giving into the worst of human tribalism.
If you fear that the mere presence of male genitalia (or male chromosomes, or "patriarchy") is a rape or solidarity threat, you should see a doctor about that. If the presence of female genitalia is so offensive that you can't countenance pussy cooties in your men's-only space, you may be an infant in an adult suit.
I know there have been and will be malign actors who insist on intruding where they're not welcome, but they invariably act out so badly that gender boundaries are the least of the rules they transgress.
I'd suggest going through /r/GenderCynical over browsing the "raw" TERF-sphere. It's a repetitive, nasty place.
Awesome that we now have TERMs as well as TERFs. /s
While I understand the desire to have spaces which provide the comfort of zero challenge to tribal identity, there's no excuse for doing this in a nominally public space, to someone who conforms to the expressed rules. You don't get to apply secret club rules like "must have penis" in a public space.
Sure and I am not denying that discrimination against transgendered people occurs even in the gay community, but IMO it's not representative of the community as a whole.... and in this case it genuinely does seem like it was just a result of a misunderstanding of the requirements of their business license, not intentional discrimination:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/02/gay-sauna-criticised-telling-transgender-man-leave-female/
I agree. But I think we also can't try to write the phenomenon off as just one or two bad apples. Sadly, there's a significant number of gay men who refuse to accept trans men as their brethren.
That's good. I figured it might be something like that.
Maybe it wasn't your intention, but this reads a bit like #notallmen to me.
I was merely trying to caution against reading too much in to this particular article or generalizing too much based on it, is all... not trying to imply there is no transphobia within the community or it isn't something that needs to be addressed.
I keep running into isolated instances of like... "vaginaphobia" or something like this.
There's a site I used to browse that used to be exclusively gay before it opened up something like a decade ago. The owner's gay, the rules are warped to give gay men a little extra leeway, any issues a woman has are ignored until enough noise is made to get that woman banned along with any actual corrective action. And it's not just the admin, there's a handful of seriously aggressively misogynist gay men who will actively block every woman they come in contact with to the point that it makes normal discussion difficult when those people are involved because blocking hides messages.
It's even more ridiculous when it comes to transmen. You'd think they'd be able to empathize better with someone whose situation is so similar but I guess even within the LGBT+ community there's plenty of hate and judgement to go around.