Aquarium: centre piece for 160l/40 gallons community tank
Hi,
I have a planted tank of 160L/about 40 US gallons. I had a few problems and want to get a center piece fish, but I also want to ask what might've gone wrong with my betta's. So this is a long post, sorry. I'll put a tl;dr in the end.
Currently there are 6 celebes rainbowfish, 2 hillstream loaches (P. Myersi), a whole bunch of bronze corydoras (they had offspring, ~12 fish), and 4 amano xl shrimps.
No ammonia and nitrites, I did get way too high nitrates but that's more and more under control (~50ppm now). The filter is a Sicce Whale 350 and there are two bubblers (Eheim 200 split in two bubblers IIRC). Temperature is about 25-26°C (77-79F).
I used to keep a singular betta in the tank with the cories and celebes, but I have had the worst luck with them. Three died in about 1.5 years. One disappeared while I was on vacation, so I don't fully know what happened (family came to check up on them, but they were also perplexed). The second one was sickly from the start and kind of wasted away with clear dropsy at the end.
The third one got stuck in a little glass vase I put on the glass with an anubia pinto plant. I got him out but he was barely alive, and although he seemed to slowly get better he eventually died of dropsy (but without clear signs of infection) in the end too.
My current working theory is that the tank is too busy, but as long as the betta is healthy it's fine. Yet betta's can't be fine all the time, and my nitrate spikes didn't help of course.
I also don't give the bigger betta pellets as the main feed anymore since the last one died of dropsy without clear signs of infection (I still have a betta in another 70l/20 gallon planted tank with shrimps), but I'm not fully sure if that's a factor that really mattered. Still, I feel like they can disrupt the digestion (especially since I tend to give too much of it) (I try not to).
I also tend to go for calmer betta's in the LFS that will probably not mess too much with my other fish in the community tank, but the second one was in retrospect too calm and hidey.
In theory they like almost still water, but I have a lot of resting places (esp near the surface), choose betta's with smaller fins and keep an eye out that they don't get thrown around in the tank.
So I'm looking for a centre piece fish with lots of personality, but who will most likely leave my other fish alone. I can return them to the LFS if it doesn't really work out, or if they don't need much space I have a 30l quarantine tank running in the background. So I can manouvre if it doesn't work out, but still.
I tried honey gourami's, but my Celebes fish were scared of them and only stayed between the plants. They were also quite dominant actually. I'm pretty sensitive about agression in my tank.
I'd love to just get another betta, but I don't want to guinea pig one after another till I perhaps find out my tank truly is too busy for them.
Tl;dr: want another fish in stead of betta's, that can handle other busybodies but doesn't dominate. No honey gourami's or livebearers please.
What is your pH? Any plants? My gut says an apisto may work out for you in this type of tank, albeit it isn’t necessarily a central “centerpiece” fish in a typical way. They’re beautiful though. It’s going to be hard to put a big, peaceful fish in a tank with those fast fish, especially if you need something more peaceful than a honey gourami. That cuts out angels and other big gouramis too. German rams are already out because of your temps. You could go with a slightly bigger rainbowfish species, but you would need a few, and you would be butting up against being overstocked.
If you do a betta again, go plakat. More active and slightly less ability to be nipped. I suspect they also aren’t as subject to inbreeding / gene problems as veiltails, too. I don’t love bettas for a tank with a bunch of other fast fish though.
My pH is 6.5-7, and it is indeed a planted tank. One huge anubia, some pretty grown out bucephalandra, a smaller grass like plant that's propagating around the tank (I love it), driftwood, some red plants (Rotala?), more smaller anubias, some stalky whispy plants. The sides get less light so plants are more sparse there, but in the middle of the tank there is a good amount.
Apisto looks quite funky in pictures, but I should see if I can see one IRL. Thank you very much!
My first betta was a plakat girl. She disappeared so I don't really know what happened but the nitrates were really bad. I didn't see it in my tests at first, turns out I was doing them wrong.
I heard veiltails are less inbred, but it probably depends. I'll check out some breeders in the area if I go the betta route for hopefully better genetics, though last I checked they were mostly halfmoon.
I never really saw nipped fins, but I had crowntails and girls mostly, so not the most weighty fins. But it is possible, thank you for the heads up
If you can keep the pH closer to the 6.5 mark, you should be okay with an apisto (as long as you keep those nitrates in check). They have a huge variety of coloration. I find the "panda" ones to be particularly cute. If you choose to get an apisto, I would recommend that you get a cave in addition to your plants. They breed and hang out in caves. That's why I don't really consider it a stereotypical "centerpiece" fish. A lot of people keep them in pairs.
I notice that no one really has addressed what happened to your bettas. I have some thoughts. First, I don't know whether you are around your tank during the day, but I have noticed that fin nipping often happens (if it happens) more during the workday, when the fish are a little more active. If that's a factor, you may have just been somewhat unaware of it when it was happening. That said, I think you have laid out some pretty good explanations for why your bettas may have experienced issues. It seems like your first one, which you had for a while, had some nitrate problems, your second one came in sick (and may have been too cautious, resulting in either being picked on or not getting enough food), and your third one had an accident with an item in your tank. Sick fish can be more placid too, which can compound feeding issues. As I said, I'm not sure bettas are the best for a community tank like this, but you may already have your explanations for why they didn't work out.
Re: veiltails, I think it probably depends. I don't breed bettas, and I don't have any stats for you. That said, I have kept some different bettas. You can get some plakat bettas that at least appear to be closer to wild-type. I tend to think wild-caught fish tend to have problems of their own, but at least they aren't generally as inbred. The koi ones do strike me as more inbred, and I think some of them probably have some genetic issues, perhaps more than veiltails. I suspect that you're right that this varies. That said, I have found the movements of plakat bettas to appear more natural and I prefer them. This largely stems from my belief that they can hold their own a little better in terms of speed, are probably a little closer to wild type, etc.
Given your parameters, you may also consider a Bolivian ram? I do not have personal experience with this type of fish, but they are big and fit right in with your pH. I also believe they are more tolerant of the temps you keep your tank at. They're supposed to be very peaceful, but I am always a little cautious with any cichlid (even if they are S. American). Bolivian rams do get relatively big, though, so make sure you can fit with your other stock. I'm not sure if you like their appearance more or less than apistos. Maybe someone else with more experience with Bolivian rams could chime in.
I checked out panda apisto's and they are quite adorable! A quick glance says they get relatively agressive during mating season, I'll have to check what that entails.
Great breakdown on the betta's. I don't have powerheads but my filter is an external canister, so I don't go for the big fins and try to break down turbulance as well as I can.
I also read they can barely handle the weight of their fins when older, resulting in messed up fin spines. Not sure how accurate that information is, but I'm wary.
I don't usually upload photo's, so hope I'm doing it right. You should be able to click on "continue to site" and see the picture, it's Dropbox: here's my 160l tank.
Normally I have some betta beds (a plant and a little cup) sticking to the glass near the surface (but not in glass planters anymore), but those went in the quarantine tank with the sick betta (edit: they are still kind of visible, it's an older ish picture)
Are you using airstones bubblers? I've seen bettas struggle with the constant surface movement those can cause. It also creates an almost vacuum effect that can drag them up unexpectedly if they swim too close.
Yes, when the nitrates were really bad they really helped keeping fish alive. Now I'm mostly nervous to throw them out, but it shouldn't be needed anymore.
I have a smaller one, though not as quiet as this one. I could maybe transition to one bubbler on the side of the outlet and see how that plays out.
My reasoning was that sponge filters also use bubblers, no? So betta's could be ok with them. But I did notice they prefer to hang where the floating plants are (they hang pretty still on the right side of the tank, there is also a floating ring to dam them there and the surface is more quiet, also more shadowy), so I do think you're right.
Going down to one bubbler and making sure there are plenty of resting spots in the calm areas would probably help. I've only used sponge filters with big fish like discus because I was concerned about the extra surface movement exhausting my little dudes. I wonder if you would have more luck with a king betta. I had a big ol' plakat king and he was definitely more sturdy than other bettas I've kept (although it's hard to tell if it was just him specifically or the type as a whole)
I'd think king betta's would be more inbred, as they come from a pretty narrow source? Also it's usually said they're more agressive (although it's probably a combination of bigger mouth and more muscle mass, maybe need for more space)
Potentially, but it's unfortunately always a gamble with betta fish unless you go through a really well repected breeder :( I've always had worse luck with common veiltail health since they get mass produced without care for big chain stores. I do think you're right about aggression being misattributed to differences in strength and space needs. My big guy was a teddy bear, but he also had a 20 gal long to swim in and plenty of hiding spots when he got tired of his tetra tank mates. I just did a bit of research and it seems like what they call king bettas these days don't get as big as the one I had (about 4 inches), so maybe giant betta is a better term?
He sounds like he was a very lovely and loved fish!
I did a cursory google, and it seems King Betta's are a hybrid between two species (or a strange Betta Imbilis) and Giant Betta is a mutation in the normal betta (Betta splendens)
Yea I also had bad luck with Bettas. They just start out from too rough a point and too many things can go wrong.
We tried with a trio of guppies, and that fared slightly better, but not by much. Their colors were a great addition to the tank though. We had some really aggrsssive tetras at the time, they might fare better now that we have more docile neons.
I wish I had better reccomendations, I hope someone can point out some betta alternatives, I'm also eager to hear.
I wanted to pipe in here on the suggestion of a guppy gang because I have had great luck keeping guppies in a heavily planted 40breeder tank and believe they do work well once established. If the concept of a trio or small group is an acceptable alternative to a single centerpiece fish, they aren’t a bad choice. Guppies are very personable and because they like to sit higher in the water column I find that mine are pretty much never hiding in the plants unlike my other species (some of which have disappeared so intensely that I won’t see them for weeks at a time). I maybe got lucky with the guppies because they were some of the first fish in when I started this tank, but they fared incredibly well.
Have you considered a blue ram? They're quite striking and generally peaceful.
I think the red eyes are kind of freaky, bit maybe that's just excaggerated in pictures. Thanks!
I don’t have any good advice, just reflection.
Betta’s are wonderful fish but I really think they do best when they have the tank to themselves.
It is fun to have a 40g planted with a lone betta, because maintenance is so incredibly low on that setup. It’s hard not to add other stuff to that tank though.
That is what I'm fearing yeah. So I'm searching for another kind of personable fish to fill that void atm.
The community tank is there, and I want to keep the celebes rainbowfish and cories. I'll think about it some more. If I were to truly start anew I think I'd go a tank bigger and get a reed fish. Maybe a senegalese bichir even. Y'know, if the rest of the household is on board in this hypothetic situation of a bigger tank :P
Sorry! I was dropping links in other posts but forgot it was you who asked. This is my 160l tank. It's a dropbox link, just click "go to website" to see the picture.
I haven't, I understand the appeal but I kind of want a single or couple fish with personality, instead of an (admittedly cool looking) school.
Also, I don't think I can really handle livebearers. My cories have eggs sometimes and I used to keep them in a breeder box so they could hatch. Most came out pretty ok, bit I had the odd one with a crooked spine and I was constantly torn between euthanasia or giving them a chance. The ones that did survive I couldn't really give away as easy as I thought emotionally. Now that times hundreds and that is how I perceive keeping livebearers hahah.
Can you post a picture of what the tank looks like?
Bettas generally like/need resting places near the surface if your tank is fairly deep. Do you have any habitat set up for them near the surface or large leaves they can chill on when they want?
For me, I’ve gone through 4 betas in the last 7 years. Two died within the first year, and the other two are lasting closer to 3 years each, with my main red one still going.
When purchasing the betas I found that the more lively ones in the cups tend to live longer. And the ones with more streamlined fins have an easier time surviving in a fish tank. Although, they aren’t as pretty to look at. Another person here posted a picture of standard looking betas and I think he’s on to something there.
So what’s your tank look like?
I tend to not take the super lively ones, as I'm afraid they might be too agressive to the other fish. But I'm probably choosing the less strong ones by doing that. Combined with the nitrates peaking a lot before, it was probably too much for them.
Yes I think so too. If I ever go for a betta again, I'll try a plakat girl (just one). But still checking out alternatives.
My 160l tank. It's a Dropbox link, you should be able to click "go to website" and see the picture. There are two bubblers that another commenter pointed out that might also cause stress (I think they're right), I can try to transition to a lighter bubbling or just one spot with bubbles. When the nitrates peaked they were really helpful in keeping fish alive, and I've been nervous of throwing them out.
On my tank with the bubbler, I actually had to add an extension piece so that the bubbles and currents were only going to one spot of the tank. I was noticing that the beta was really struggling to swim with too much current in the water.
Overall, it looks like your tank has a good set up. There’s special beta houses you can get that suction cup to the glass. I would recommend at least putting one near the surface just poking out of the top a bit when I did that in my tank, I found my beta would hang out in there quite a bit .