If it's anything like Japan, it probably will be... I think it can be empowering, but I also can help but imagine all these cosmetic companies overjoyed to double their market.
If it's anything like Japan, it probably will be...
I think it can be empowering, but I also can help but imagine all these cosmetic companies overjoyed to double their market.
Indeed, one of the things I truly appreciate about being male is the simplicity of appearance. Some care should be taken to not look slovenly, but in general most days I can get up, comb my hair,...
Indeed, one of the things I truly appreciate about being male is the simplicity of appearance. Some care should be taken to not look slovenly, but in general most days I can get up, comb my hair, and walk out the door in under 10min.
My wife is not a "girly" women, but she has a regime of shampoos, conditioners, face scrubs, hair oil, eyebrow care, etc etc. I also have a close friend who is transitioning, and listening to all the things they are learning about female makeup, clothing, hair, etc is maddening. Maddening in the sense of "fuck, this is rediculous, and not worth it". The most bizarre part of it to me is, most women I talk to agree that it's rediculous, but all of them have to continue because it's a social norm.
I'm actually surprised that we in western societies haven't already seen this here. Cosmetic companies invented the idea that ladies' armpit hair and leg hair was unattractive, to sell razors to...
Male idols are plastered on billboards in Seoul hawking products like face masks and moisturisers. Companies are actively hiring men to sell women make-up products.
I'm actually surprised that we in western societies haven't already seen this here. Cosmetic companies invented the idea that ladies' armpit hair and leg hair was unattractive, to sell razors to women. They invented the idea that humans' natural body odour is unattractive, to sell deodorants to everyone. They've invented so many "problems" for women that only their products can solve. They're already trying to push moisturisers for men. Gender equality seems to be leading to more strict grooming standards for men (I'm noticing men are shaving their legs now!) rather than freer standards for women. I'm surprised the cosmetic companies aren't already investigating ways to sell make-up to men.
They must be loving this movement in South Korea. :)
To be fair, body odour is pretty damn objectively unattractive in most cases. That wasn't so much an "invention" as them simply capitalizing on an already occurring issue. I do agree with you...
To be fair, body odour is pretty damn objectively unattractive in most cases. That wasn't so much an "invention" as them simply capitalizing on an already occurring issue. I do agree with you about the rest though.
Really? To clarify: I'm talking about the normal smell of clean sweat, rather than days' old accumulated body odour. Sweat is just a natural part of being human. Some people even find it quite a...
Really? To clarify: I'm talking about the normal smell of clean sweat, rather than days' old accumulated body odour. Sweat is just a natural part of being human. Some people even find it quite a turn-on. But, after thousands of years of us sweating, cosmetic companies told us that we shouldn't smell like sweat.
They have actually done studies on this... perspiration tends to be attractive only if a person is the gender you're sexually attracted to, they are generally physically healthy and they also...
They have actually done studies on this... perspiration tends to be attractive only if a person is the gender you're sexually attracted to, they are generally physically healthy and they also smell dissimilar to yourself (which it's been theorized might be an anti-inbreeding evolutionary trait) but otherwise it tends to be repugnant. There are also all sorts of other factors as well, like with most women higher testosterone levels in the perspiration of men and vegetarian diets tend to be found more attractive... but regardless, our body odour is definitely not universally attractive to everyone. It's not just some cosmetic industry invention but appears to be tied to our evolution in some way.
Perfumes go back into antiquity as well, as far back as Mesopotamia. Even if a lot of our distaste for body odors is tied to modern hygienic practices, or to cosmetic industry influence, we've...
Perfumes go back into antiquity as well, as far back as Mesopotamia.
Even if a lot of our distaste for body odors is tied to modern hygienic practices, or to cosmetic industry influence, we've quite enjoyed wearing scents for a very long time.
If that was truly the case, then the first person to invent deodorant and antiperspirant should have found an instant untapped market, just waiting for the answer to their problem of stinky...
If that was truly the case, then the first person to invent deodorant and antiperspirant should have found an instant untapped market, just waiting for the answer to their problem of stinky underarms. "Instead, most people’s solution to body odor was to wash regularly and then to overwhelm any emerging stink with perfume." Indeed, "many people—if they had even heard of the anti-sweat toiletries—thought they were unnecessary, unhealthy or both."
[The advertiser] realized that improving sales wasn’t a simple matter of making potential customers aware that a remedy for perspiration existed. It was about convincing two-thirds of the target population that sweating was a serious embarrassment.
[He] decided to present perspiration as a social faux pas that nobody would directly tell you was responsible for your unpopularity, but which they were happy to gossip behind your back about.
Soon...
The financial success of [his] strategy to exploit female insecurity was not lost on competitors. It didn’t take long before other deodorant and antiperspirant companies began to mimic Odorono’s so-called “whisper copy,” to scare women into buying anti-sweat products.
The first seller of an antiperspirant had to reframe sweat as a social embarrassment for women in order to sell his product. They then went on to do the same thing for men when they realised the male market was still untapped. The cosmetic companies shamed us into buying their products. And they're still doing it today, with everything from antiperspirant to lipstick.
I think you're conflating two distinct issues. The perception of visible perspiration being a "social faux pas" may be entirely manufactured in the modern age, but you explicitly said they...
I think you're conflating two distinct issues. The perception of visible perspiration being a "social faux pas" may be entirely manufactured in the modern age, but you explicitly said they invented the idea that body odour smells bad in your first comment, which is what I was directly addressing with the studies. Antiperspirant may be an unnecessary product that demand was manufactured for but there is a reason perfume, cologne and other products to mask the smell of body odour have been around for millennia; we stink.
Possibly. But my point is that cosmetic companies turned a natural bodily process into a shameful thing that only they had the solution for. They created a sense of social shame in order to sell...
I think you're conflating two distinct issues.
Possibly. But my point is that cosmetic companies turned a natural bodily process into a shameful thing that only they had the solution for. They created a sense of social shame in order to sell their product.
And I'm surprised they haven't yet found a way to shame men into buying make-up, just like they shamed us into buying antiperspirant and deodorant.
We already see this in a different way with muscular men plastered on mens health magazine talking about some new routine they made up or some supplement that will give you 10lbs of muscle in just...
We already see this in a different way with muscular men plastered on mens health magazine talking about some new routine they made up or some supplement that will give you 10lbs of muscle in just two months or other such nonsense.
I definitely think they are ;) I honestly sort of think we do, just not with make up. I think in Canada at least, it's more about selling weights and workout gear.
They must be loving this movement in South Korea. :)
I definitely think they are ;)
I'm actually surprised that we in western societies haven't already seen this here.
I honestly sort of think we do, just not with make up. I think in Canada at least, it's more about selling weights and workout gear.
South Korea has really interesting beauty standards. They are a huge hub for plastic surgery and the government encourages medical tourism for this industry. Nearly a quarter of their female...
South Korea has really interesting beauty standards. They are a huge hub for plastic surgery and the government encourages medical tourism for this industry. Nearly a quarter of their female population has had some form of plastic surgery (the vast majority being blepharoplasty or double eyelid surgery, colloquially). I would imagine among their k-pop stars and actors/actresses, the numbers are much higher than those in the western world.
They take some western standards for beauty (such as double eyelid) but then also have their own such as a soft, v-line jaw with little to no jawline, males showcase their abs with low bodyfat but not a lot of muscle, and pale and unblemished skin.
While I think the concept of men spending more time on fashion (Japanese men in Tokyo seemed to have much more expensive clothing and accessories than I was used to seeing on the streets in the US), makeup, and plastic surgery is slowly bleeding into the west, we're likely to emphasize our own ideals of beauty rather than adopt theirs. For example, among action movie stars, a top-heavy muscular body seems to be popular in the US.
Off-topic, but I've always found this to be a weird comment. I have monolids and I'm definitely the minority of all the other Asians I know (mostly travelled to Hong Kong, Taiwan and Shanghai, and...
They take some western standards for beauty (such as double eyelid)...
Off-topic, but I've always found this to be a weird comment. I have monolids and I'm definitely the minority of all the other Asians I know (mostly travelled to Hong Kong, Taiwan and Shanghai, and know people from those places). Not saying monolids is not an Asian trait, because it is, but double eyelids isn't solely a western trait. I wonder why it's regarded that way?
I forget his name, but he is one weird guy. He lassoed a kid with cleft palate off the street in a poor Asian country (I think south Korea but I could be wrong) and gave him surgery. I think it...
I forget his name, but he is one weird guy. He lassoed a kid with cleft palate off the street in a poor Asian country (I think south Korea but I could be wrong) and gave him surgery. I think it was because he was having trouble finding people to volunteer for surgery because it was taboo at the time.
While the precise origin of double eyelid is debated, the popularization of the procedure is generally attributed to David Ralph Millard, the late plastic surgeon who had received a great many accolades to recognize his work with children who had facial clefts. In the mid-1950s, the doctor was stationed in South Korea as a plastic surgeon working for the U.S. Marine Corps. His work with double eyelid surgery began when he was researching ways to better reconstruct the ocular region for burn victims, when he discovered that many surgeons across Asia were already performing procedures intended to add the upper eyelid fold.
Millard’s Western origin and influences have lead some medical historians to question the intended nature of the procedure—whether it was to popularize a procedure that would make the patient appear to be more Westernized or not—but most historians agree that this is a procedure that was already being performed by Asian surgeons, and Millard simply helped popularize and advance the techniques used. Regardless of the history of double eyelid surgery, many Asian patients have found that this cosmetic surgery can be incredibly beneficial.
Millard, yeah that was his name. Very much embodies the American "spirit" in embarrassing ways. You could dismiss it as "oh it was the 50s" but bringing a lasso with him across the ocean and then...
Millard, yeah that was his name. Very much embodies the American "spirit" in embarrassing ways. You could dismiss it as "oh it was the 50s" but bringing a lasso with him across the ocean and then using it to lasso a kid and give them surgery potentially against their will is going a bit far.
I think South Korea is a good example of how facial features of the "sexes" reverse in different countries, and a good example of the variety of gender roles globally.
I think South Korea is a good example of how facial features of the "sexes" reverse in different countries, and a good example of the variety of gender roles globally.
Can you elaborate on that? I'm just not really sure what you mean. There seems to be a preference for their men to be more androgynous, but I'm not sure I'm seeing a reverse. Their women (in...
Can you elaborate on that? I'm just not really sure what you mean. There seems to be a preference for their men to be more androgynous, but I'm not sure I'm seeing a reverse. Their women (in media) are far from masculine, though they do seem to have a lot of gender-bender stories...
Regarding roles specifically, this is anecdotal, but they seem to favour very traditional gender roles, like women cooking.
I saw a study about this but I can't find it right now. They analyzed the literal facial makeup; the anatomical and physical features of the face of men and women and found essentially a reversed...
I saw a study about this but I can't find it right now.
They analyzed the literal facial makeup; the anatomical and physical features of the face of men and women and found essentially a reversed trend from that of the West
I hope this doesn't translate into even more pressure (now for men) to use makeup to fit into society.
If it's anything like Japan, it probably will be...
I think it can be empowering, but I also can help but imagine all these cosmetic companies overjoyed to double their market.
Indeed, one of the things I truly appreciate about being male is the simplicity of appearance. Some care should be taken to not look slovenly, but in general most days I can get up, comb my hair, and walk out the door in under 10min.
My wife is not a "girly" women, but she has a regime of shampoos, conditioners, face scrubs, hair oil, eyebrow care, etc etc. I also have a close friend who is transitioning, and listening to all the things they are learning about female makeup, clothing, hair, etc is maddening. Maddening in the sense of "fuck, this is rediculous, and not worth it". The most bizarre part of it to me is, most women I talk to agree that it's rediculous, but all of them have to continue because it's a social norm.
I'm actually surprised that we in western societies haven't already seen this here. Cosmetic companies invented the idea that ladies' armpit hair and leg hair was unattractive, to sell razors to women. They invented the idea that humans' natural body odour is unattractive, to sell deodorants to everyone. They've invented so many "problems" for women that only their products can solve. They're already trying to push moisturisers for men. Gender equality seems to be leading to more strict grooming standards for men (I'm noticing men are shaving their legs now!) rather than freer standards for women. I'm surprised the cosmetic companies aren't already investigating ways to sell make-up to men.
They must be loving this movement in South Korea. :)
To be fair, body odour is pretty damn objectively unattractive in most cases. That wasn't so much an "invention" as them simply capitalizing on an already occurring issue. I do agree with you about the rest though.
Really? To clarify: I'm talking about the normal smell of clean sweat, rather than days' old accumulated body odour. Sweat is just a natural part of being human. Some people even find it quite a turn-on. But, after thousands of years of us sweating, cosmetic companies told us that we shouldn't smell like sweat.
They have actually done studies on this... perspiration tends to be attractive only if a person is the gender you're sexually attracted to, they are generally physically healthy and they also smell dissimilar to yourself (which it's been theorized might be an anti-inbreeding evolutionary trait) but otherwise it tends to be repugnant. There are also all sorts of other factors as well, like with most women higher testosterone levels in the perspiration of men and vegetarian diets tend to be found more attractive... but regardless, our body odour is definitely not universally attractive to everyone. It's not just some cosmetic industry invention but appears to be tied to our evolution in some way.
Perfumes go back into antiquity as well, as far back as Mesopotamia.
Even if a lot of our distaste for body odors is tied to modern hygienic practices, or to cosmetic industry influence, we've quite enjoyed wearing scents for a very long time.
If that was truly the case, then the first person to invent deodorant and antiperspirant should have found an instant untapped market, just waiting for the answer to their problem of stinky underarms. "Instead, most people’s solution to body odor was to wash regularly and then to overwhelm any emerging stink with perfume." Indeed, "many people—if they had even heard of the anti-sweat toiletries—thought they were unnecessary, unhealthy or both."
Soon...
The first seller of an antiperspirant had to reframe sweat as a social embarrassment for women in order to sell his product. They then went on to do the same thing for men when they realised the male market was still untapped. The cosmetic companies shamed us into buying their products. And they're still doing it today, with everything from antiperspirant to lipstick.
Source: How Advertisers Convinced Americans They Smelled Bad
I think you're conflating two distinct issues. The perception of visible perspiration being a "social faux pas" may be entirely manufactured in the modern age, but you explicitly said they invented the idea that body odour smells bad in your first comment, which is what I was directly addressing with the studies. Antiperspirant may be an unnecessary product that demand was manufactured for but there is a reason perfume, cologne and other products to mask the smell of body odour have been around for millennia; we stink.
Possibly. But my point is that cosmetic companies turned a natural bodily process into a shameful thing that only they had the solution for. They created a sense of social shame in order to sell their product.
And I'm surprised they haven't yet found a way to shame men into buying make-up, just like they shamed us into buying antiperspirant and deodorant.
We already see this in a different way with muscular men plastered on mens health magazine talking about some new routine they made up or some supplement that will give you 10lbs of muscle in just two months or other such nonsense.
I definitely think they are ;)
I honestly sort of think we do, just not with make up. I think in Canada at least, it's more about selling weights and workout gear.
South Korea has really interesting beauty standards. They are a huge hub for plastic surgery and the government encourages medical tourism for this industry. Nearly a quarter of their female population has had some form of plastic surgery (the vast majority being blepharoplasty or double eyelid surgery, colloquially). I would imagine among their k-pop stars and actors/actresses, the numbers are much higher than those in the western world.
They take some western standards for beauty (such as double eyelid) but then also have their own such as a soft, v-line jaw with little to no jawline, males showcase their abs with low bodyfat but not a lot of muscle, and pale and unblemished skin.
While I think the concept of men spending more time on fashion (Japanese men in Tokyo seemed to have much more expensive clothing and accessories than I was used to seeing on the streets in the US), makeup, and plastic surgery is slowly bleeding into the west, we're likely to emphasize our own ideals of beauty rather than adopt theirs. For example, among action movie stars, a top-heavy muscular body seems to be popular in the US.
Off-topic, but I've always found this to be a weird comment. I have monolids and I'm definitely the minority of all the other Asians I know (mostly travelled to Hong Kong, Taiwan and Shanghai, and know people from those places). Not saying monolids is not an Asian trait, because it is, but double eyelids isn't solely a western trait. I wonder why it's regarded that way?
History more than anything. A rather racist and frankly weird doctor pioneered and brought the procedure to Asian countries.
I could see that.
I forget his name, but he is one weird guy. He lassoed a kid with cleft palate off the street in a poor Asian country (I think south Korea but I could be wrong) and gave him surgery. I think it was because he was having trouble finding people to volunteer for surgery because it was taboo at the time.
Just looking it up now, lol - David Ralph Millard
Millard, yeah that was his name. Very much embodies the American "spirit" in embarrassing ways. You could dismiss it as "oh it was the 50s" but bringing a lasso with him across the ocean and then using it to lasso a kid and give them surgery potentially against their will is going a bit far.
Yeah, definitely a "cowboy" and not in a good way.
I think South Korea is a good example of how facial features of the "sexes" reverse in different countries, and a good example of the variety of gender roles globally.
Can you elaborate on that? I'm just not really sure what you mean. There seems to be a preference for their men to be more androgynous, but I'm not sure I'm seeing a reverse. Their women (in media) are far from masculine, though they do seem to have a lot of gender-bender stories...
Regarding roles specifically, this is anecdotal, but they seem to favour very traditional gender roles, like women cooking.
I saw a study about this but I can't find it right now.
They analyzed the literal facial makeup; the anatomical and physical features of the face of men and women and found essentially a reversed trend from that of the West
Do you think both sexes "reverse" as compared to the western world or just male features?