Interesting case from a few angles. The handshake is definitely a cultural and pretty weird thing when you really think about it, however I could definitely see it off putting enough being refused...
Interesting case from a few angles.
The handshake is definitely a cultural and pretty weird thing when you really think about it, however I could definitely see it off putting enough being refused one to taint your opinion of someone enough to not hire them. Not because you're actively thinking "fuck them for not shaking my hand" but just adds to the "different-ness" of the person and wondering if they would fit well with the rest of the team.
Corporate culture is a real thing and getting people that work well together is important as a hiring manager. To me this seems a little excessive on the court's side of decisively ruling that was the exact reason and that it shouldn't be allowed because I mostly think a business should be able to choose who they want to deal with, but obviously different countries have different opinions.
In my ideal world the business could cut whoever they want, but that person would have some assistance before they were starving in the street.
Yeah, handshakes are pretty common, and I can see why someone might find it weird to be refused one, but to be so offended as to not hire someone is a bit much for me. I don't think it's excessive...
Yeah, handshakes are pretty common, and I can see why someone might find it weird to be refused one, but to be so offended as to not hire someone is a bit much for me.
I don't think it's excessive on the court's side because honestly religion is a protected class (I have to admit, I assumed that, since I'm in Canada and have limited knowledge of Swedish law), and ultimately, I believe in full-body autonomy. This includes not being discriminated for wanting not to touch or be touched for any reason.
Definitely from a bias view, but I'm not a touchy person, and have generally just stated that, and have always been respected. I'm good with handshakes, but because I mention I'm not touchy, people generally don't try to shake my hand either. I would hate to be denied a job based on that.
I'm very much not a touchy person as well. In informal settings I often deny handshakes, but make sure to acknowledge them with a gesture such as a head nod or slight bow. I've never seen anyone...
I'm very much not a touchy person as well. In informal settings I often deny handshakes, but make sure to acknowledge them with a gesture such as a head nod or slight bow. I've never seen anyone taken aback from me not giving a handshake. If I was denied a job for a not giving a handshake, I'd be upset as well.
Another important thing to notice is the amount was not significant (40,000 kronor; $4,350; £3,420), which is more about making precedent that discrimination for not giving a handshake is not okay, rather than trying to get rich quick.
I think it really comes down to the question of "did the employer not hire you because the job expects you to shake hands often?" Would it be ok if you were hiring a traveling business person in a...
I think it really comes down to the question of
"did the employer not hire you because the job expects you to shake hands often?"
Would it be ok if you were hiring a traveling business person in a country where handshakes are very customary? You could very easily upset people who customarily finish a deal with a handshake and your performance in landing these deals will be greatly reduced by not shaking hands. People take you as rude, even if you're just trying to adhere to your religion.
Is the business not justified in denying you because you lack of shaking hands is impacting your ability to do your job? Even if the reason you don't shake hands is because of your religion, the business doesn't care if you're muslim, but the actual act that you cannot perform because of being muslim is hindering your performance.
I mean you wouldn't sue someone hiring a bacon taster who refused to hire you because you can't taste it according to your religion. They have refused religious appeals to fail to do your job in America (the anti-gay person refusing to issue marriage licenses based on religion).
Obviously the handshake is not the equivalent here in severity, and sexual preference is also a protected class, but I think it depends how it is framed. If the person was not hired for being muslim, that's bad. If the person was not hired for not gelling with the team because of not wanting to handshake, I think that's fair.
I see what you're getting and and can definitely see a case for it in other circumstances. For this specific case, it's a hard sell for me. And drawing a different example, you wouldn't be able to...
Is the business not justified in denying you because you lack of shaking hands is impacting your ability to do your job?
I see what you're getting and and can definitely see a case for it in other circumstances. For this specific case, it's a hard sell for me.
And drawing a different example, you wouldn't be able to say not hire a black person because your main customers are little old Korean ladies who are uncomfortable.
Yeah I like your counter-example. But in that case I think it would still come down to how you describe it as to how the court ruled. If you go That's going to be viewed very differently than...
Yeah I like your counter-example. But in that case I think it would still come down to how you describe it as to how the court ruled.
If you go
well I can't hire him, he's black and will scare customers!
That's going to be viewed very differently than
I can't hire him because he's too big, he'll scare customers.
Height not protected, race is.
Obviously that's a shitty way of wording things to avoid the real point, I don't condone it, but I think in certain real world situations there can be poorly matched applicants who very regularly get the "we've decided not to hire you" with no explanation.
In the specific story in the link that's a little harder because the person stopped the interview right then and there, but I think there's still an argument to be had about whether it was the fit from a clash of cultures, or specifically a bigot not hiring a muslim because they are muslim. Obviously not all muslims refuse to shake hands, so if he just says "I would hire a muslim that did shake hands" does that let him off the hook? If he really meant or not would that make a legal distinction?
To be the burden of proof falls on the accuser of discrimination and this case is too slippery from solely reading about it. Obviously in court you could get an actual better feel.
I agree. There really isn't all that much info in the short article. I'm sure there's much more to this presented in court. Definitely seems like the company left themselves vulnerable in this...
I agree. There really isn't all that much info in the short article. I'm sure there's much more to this presented in court.
Definitely seems like the company left themselves vulnerable in this case. I know lots of places that'll just finish the interview, not hire you and never explain why.
Yeah this is exactly what I mean. This is obviously why I think a lot of those laws are completely useless even if I understand the intent that spawned them.
finish the interview, not hire you and never explain why.
Yeah this is exactly what I mean. This is obviously why I think a lot of those laws are completely useless even if I understand the intent that spawned them.
Why are handshakes still a thing? Has nobody learned anything from Covid? Literally nobody should be offended by someone not wanting to shake hands. It's unhygienic.
Why are handshakes still a thing? Has nobody learned anything from Covid? Literally nobody should be offended by someone not wanting to shake hands. It's unhygienic.
Bear in mind that Covid only started in (late) 2019, and this article is from 2018. It seems quite possible that norms have shifted in the intervening years as a result of the pandemic. As a side...
Bear in mind that Covid only started in (late) 2019, and this article is from 2018. It seems quite possible that norms have shifted in the intervening years as a result of the pandemic.
As a side note, it's okay to bump old topics to add something new, but there probably isn't a lot to add to this old news item at this time. Though it may have been raised in the index due to the recent recategorization of some groups, so I understand if that caused some confusion.
Interesting case from a few angles.
The handshake is definitely a cultural and pretty weird thing when you really think about it, however I could definitely see it off putting enough being refused one to taint your opinion of someone enough to not hire them. Not because you're actively thinking "fuck them for not shaking my hand" but just adds to the "different-ness" of the person and wondering if they would fit well with the rest of the team.
Corporate culture is a real thing and getting people that work well together is important as a hiring manager. To me this seems a little excessive on the court's side of decisively ruling that was the exact reason and that it shouldn't be allowed because I mostly think a business should be able to choose who they want to deal with, but obviously different countries have different opinions.
In my ideal world the business could cut whoever they want, but that person would have some assistance before they were starving in the street.
Yeah, handshakes are pretty common, and I can see why someone might find it weird to be refused one, but to be so offended as to not hire someone is a bit much for me.
I don't think it's excessive on the court's side because honestly religion is a protected class (I have to admit, I assumed that, since I'm in Canada and have limited knowledge of Swedish law), and ultimately, I believe in full-body autonomy. This includes not being discriminated for wanting not to touch or be touched for any reason.
Definitely from a bias view, but I'm not a touchy person, and have generally just stated that, and have always been respected. I'm good with handshakes, but because I mention I'm not touchy, people generally don't try to shake my hand either. I would hate to be denied a job based on that.
I'm very much not a touchy person as well. In informal settings I often deny handshakes, but make sure to acknowledge them with a gesture such as a head nod or slight bow. I've never seen anyone taken aback from me not giving a handshake. If I was denied a job for a not giving a handshake, I'd be upset as well.
Another important thing to notice is the amount was not significant (40,000 kronor; $4,350; £3,420), which is more about making precedent that discrimination for not giving a handshake is not okay, rather than trying to get rich quick.
I think this should be enough in pretty much all cases. And good point about the awarded amount.
I think it really comes down to the question of
"did the employer not hire you because the job expects you to shake hands often?"
Would it be ok if you were hiring a traveling business person in a country where handshakes are very customary? You could very easily upset people who customarily finish a deal with a handshake and your performance in landing these deals will be greatly reduced by not shaking hands. People take you as rude, even if you're just trying to adhere to your religion.
Is the business not justified in denying you because you lack of shaking hands is impacting your ability to do your job? Even if the reason you don't shake hands is because of your religion, the business doesn't care if you're muslim, but the actual act that you cannot perform because of being muslim is hindering your performance.
I mean you wouldn't sue someone hiring a bacon taster who refused to hire you because you can't taste it according to your religion. They have refused religious appeals to fail to do your job in America (the anti-gay person refusing to issue marriage licenses based on religion).
Obviously the handshake is not the equivalent here in severity, and sexual preference is also a protected class, but I think it depends how it is framed. If the person was not hired for being muslim, that's bad. If the person was not hired for not gelling with the team because of not wanting to handshake, I think that's fair.
I see what you're getting and and can definitely see a case for it in other circumstances. For this specific case, it's a hard sell for me.
And drawing a different example, you wouldn't be able to say not hire a black person because your main customers are little old Korean ladies who are uncomfortable.
Yeah I like your counter-example. But in that case I think it would still come down to how you describe it as to how the court ruled.
If you go
That's going to be viewed very differently than
Height not protected, race is.
Obviously that's a shitty way of wording things to avoid the real point, I don't condone it, but I think in certain real world situations there can be poorly matched applicants who very regularly get the "we've decided not to hire you" with no explanation.
In the specific story in the link that's a little harder because the person stopped the interview right then and there, but I think there's still an argument to be had about whether it was the fit from a clash of cultures, or specifically a bigot not hiring a muslim because they are muslim. Obviously not all muslims refuse to shake hands, so if he just says "I would hire a muslim that did shake hands" does that let him off the hook? If he really meant or not would that make a legal distinction?
To be the burden of proof falls on the accuser of discrimination and this case is too slippery from solely reading about it. Obviously in court you could get an actual better feel.
I agree. There really isn't all that much info in the short article. I'm sure there's much more to this presented in court.
Definitely seems like the company left themselves vulnerable in this case. I know lots of places that'll just finish the interview, not hire you and never explain why.
Yeah this is exactly what I mean. This is obviously why I think a lot of those laws are completely useless even if I understand the intent that spawned them.
Totally agree, which is why when a company is dumb or careless enough to "get caught", I think they really should be hit hard.
Why are handshakes still a thing? Has nobody learned anything from Covid? Literally nobody should be offended by someone not wanting to shake hands. It's unhygienic.
This news story happened two years before Covid.
But the comment I replied to didn't.
The comment you replied to was posted on the same day the post was.
Bear in mind that Covid only started in (late) 2019, and this article is from 2018. It seems quite possible that norms have shifted in the intervening years as a result of the pandemic.
As a side note, it's okay to bump old topics to add something new, but there probably isn't a lot to add to this old news item at this time. Though it may have been raised in the index due to the recent recategorization of some groups, so I understand if that caused some confusion.