In one hand, last name is just a some kind of ID and it doesn't matter whose it is. On other hand, the modern situation is kinda sexist in favor of men. As a solution, parents could just decide...
In one hand, last name is just a some kind of ID and it doesn't matter whose it is. On other hand, the modern situation is kinda sexist in favor of men. As a solution, parents could just decide together regardless of tradition, or, if no agreement is reached, roll a dice.
Roll the dice...I like that. I do find it interesting that among people I know, most women did not take their husband's name, but it's pretty much default children do.
Roll the dice...I like that.
I do find it interesting that among people I know, most women did not take their husband's name, but it's pretty much default children do.
The hyphenation issue after a few generations is one that came to mind for me as well, but I thought of what I think is a possible compromise: if you have a hyphenated last name and want to pass...
The hyphenation issue after a few generations is one that came to mind for me as well, but I thought of what I think is a possible compromise: if you have a hyphenated last name and want to pass that on to your child, and your partner also wants their last name passed down, then drop one of the two parts of your hyphenated last name and combine the remaining parts. One example would be to drop the part of your last name associated with your partner's sex and pass down the opposite part, allowing you to pass down both a patrilineal and matrilineal last name.
Obviously that example won't necessarily work for e.g. gay couples or someone who is intersex, or you may have reservations about using the part of your last name associated with a parent who you're on bad terms with, and that's okay. Any selection strategy could be used to suit your specific circumstances. What matters is that it's a compromise that takes both peoples' feelings on the matter into account.
We could also always go with a hyphenated version of the Old Norse (-son/-dóttir) and Old Arabic (ibn/ibnat) style patro/matro-nyms in lieu of surnames, too. E.g. [Child's first name],...
We could also always go with a hyphenated version of the Old Norse (-son/-dóttir) and Old Arabic (ibn/ibnat) style patro/matro-nyms in lieu of surnames, too.
E.g. [Child's first name], [son/daughter] of [Parents' hyphenated first names]. :P
We could switch to Spanish naming customs , where the patrilineal name carries on for generations, but both the matrilineal and patrilineal names are given to each child.
We could switch to Spanish naming customs , where the patrilineal name carries on for generations, but both the matrilineal and patrilineal names are given to each child.
Hyphenated surnames as a "solution" feels wrong to me. It's using your child to make a statement about yourself, which is kind of cruel in a world where being different means being bullied. I have...
Hyphenated surnames as a "solution" feels wrong to me. It's using your child to make a statement about yourself, which is kind of cruel in a world where being different means being bullied. I have friends with names that translate to "revolution" and "peace" which made childhood difficult for them.
At least in western countries, using the mother's surname feels like a better solution since both unmarried parents and women who don't take their husband's surname are very common. It's just easier for the kid.
You say that, but my brother-in-law carries his mother's last name even though his parents are married since his mother opted not to change her surname, and he used to get picked on in school for...
At least in western countries, using the mother's surname feels like a better solution... It's just easier for the kid.
You say that, but my brother-in-law carries his mother's last name even though his parents are married since his mother opted not to change her surname, and he used to get picked on in school for having a father with a different last name than his. That is largely why my sister decided to change her last name to his after they were married, for the sake of their future kids, despite her originally wanting to do the same (or hyphenate). So there are definitely cultural issues at play that are a factor and need to be considered as well.
Note, I am not saying I agree with their decision or that I think the situation is fair... but it is often not quite so black & white, and ultimately it was their decision to make, not mine. I do wish there was another solution to the problem though, since patrilineal and even matrilineal surnames are inherently inequitable.
Being half Portuguese, my name goes First Middle MothersMaiden FathersLast. I like this as it includes my mother's maiden name while preserving the "typical" American order of First Middle...
Being half Portuguese, my name goes First Middle MothersMaiden FathersLast.
I like this as it includes my mother's maiden name while preserving the "typical" American order of First Middle FathersLast, allowing me to just use First FathersLast if needed.
There's the Russian tradition of the matronymic/patronymic, where girls take a variant of the mother's surname, and boys take the father's. (Surnames in that part of the world are a relatively...
There's the Russian tradition of the matronymic/patronymic, where girls take a variant of the mother's surname, and boys take the father's. (Surnames in that part of the world are a relatively recent addition, mostly dating to Napoleonic law.). It's gendered and thus not so handy if there's a gender change, but it provides an equitable distribution of lineage naming.
I'd kept my family surname after marriage, and was planning on something like this if I ever had kids.
I am Russian, and I've never heard about anything like this. There are always patronyms, like Ivanovich/-vna or Pertovich/-vna, but I've never heard about matronyms.
I am Russian, and I've never heard about anything like this. There are always patronyms, like Ivanovich/-vna or Pertovich/-vna, but I've never heard about matronyms.
I don't know why I thought it was generalizable outside Ukrainian/Byelorussian/Russian Jewish lineages, but I've got a bunch of matronyms in the family tree.
I don't know why I thought it was generalizable outside Ukrainian/Byelorussian/Russian Jewish lineages, but I've got a bunch of matronyms in the family tree.
As far as I know, Russian tradition is: First Name "gendered father's first name" Family name (which also comes from the father). For example if your family name is Putin and your father's name is...
As far as I know, Russian tradition is: First Name "gendered father's first name" Family name (which also comes from the father). For example if your family name is Putin and your father's name is Vladimir, and you're a woman, your name would be "patience_limited Vladimirovna Putin" (if you're a man, "patience_limited Vladimirovich Putin").
I'm going to out myself somewhat here, but I've got family tradition on my side: https://mosaicmagazine.com/picks/2018/02/why-many-russian-jewish-surnames-derive-from-the-names-of-women/?print
My wife and I got fairly lucky in that the tradition on her side of the family was to give a family surname as the middle name, so we just gave her last name (which she kept after marriage) to our...
My wife and I got fairly lucky in that the tradition on her side of the family was to give a family surname as the middle name, so we just gave her last name (which she kept after marriage) to our child as his middle name.
My family's tradition was to give grandparent's names as middle names. So, instead we just gave him one of his grandparents' name as a first name to keep my family's tradition alive.
So, we avoided the hyphenation, which others have mentioned can get messy, and still keep both family's traditions relatively intact.
Why not just make up a last-name and have both partners take that? Or maybe a derivation of an important family member's name, a particularly helpful grand-parent or something. I think there is...
Why not just make up a last-name and have both partners take that? Or maybe a derivation of an important family member's name, a particularly helpful grand-parent or something. I think there is value in both sides having to change names – fully commit, and it doesn't feel like one person is getting absorbed into the other's identity.
In one hand, last name is just a some kind of ID and it doesn't matter whose it is. On other hand, the modern situation is kinda sexist in favor of men. As a solution, parents could just decide together regardless of tradition, or, if no agreement is reached, roll a dice.
Roll the dice...I like that.
I do find it interesting that among people I know, most women did not take their husband's name, but it's pretty much default children do.
Or hyphenate... though that solution becomes a bit problematic after a few generations.
The hyphenation issue after a few generations is one that came to mind for me as well, but I thought of what I think is a possible compromise: if you have a hyphenated last name and want to pass that on to your child, and your partner also wants their last name passed down, then drop one of the two parts of your hyphenated last name and combine the remaining parts. One example would be to drop the part of your last name associated with your partner's sex and pass down the opposite part, allowing you to pass down both a patrilineal and matrilineal last name.
Obviously that example won't necessarily work for e.g. gay couples or someone who is intersex, or you may have reservations about using the part of your last name associated with a parent who you're on bad terms with, and that's okay. Any selection strategy could be used to suit your specific circumstances. What matters is that it's a compromise that takes both peoples' feelings on the matter into account.
We could also always go with a hyphenated version of the Old Norse (-son/-dóttir) and Old Arabic (ibn/ibnat) style patro/matro-nyms in lieu of surnames, too.
E.g. [Child's first name], [son/daughter] of [Parents' hyphenated first names]. :P
That's it, that's the right solution, I like it
We could switch to Spanish naming customs , where the patrilineal name carries on for generations, but both the matrilineal and patrilineal names are given to each child.
Portuguese is similar, but with the father's name as the very last.
Hyphenated surnames as a "solution" feels wrong to me. It's using your child to make a statement about yourself, which is kind of cruel in a world where being different means being bullied. I have friends with names that translate to "revolution" and "peace" which made childhood difficult for them.
At least in western countries, using the mother's surname feels like a better solution since both unmarried parents and women who don't take their husband's surname are very common. It's just easier for the kid.
You say that, but my brother-in-law carries his mother's last name even though his parents are married since his mother opted not to change her surname, and he used to get picked on in school for having a father with a different last name than his. That is largely why my sister decided to change her last name to his after they were married, for the sake of their future kids, despite her originally wanting to do the same (or hyphenate). So there are definitely cultural issues at play that are a factor and need to be considered as well.
Note, I am not saying I agree with their decision or that I think the situation is fair... but it is often not quite so black & white, and ultimately it was their decision to make, not mine. I do wish there was another solution to the problem though, since patrilineal and even matrilineal surnames are inherently inequitable.
my parents combined their last names. but rolling a die sounds pretty awesome haha
Being half Portuguese, my name goes
First Middle MothersMaiden FathersLast.I like this as it includes my mother's maiden name while preserving the "typical" American order of
First Middle FathersLast, allowing me to just useFirst FathersLastif needed.There's the Russian tradition of the matronymic/patronymic, where girls take a variant of the mother's surname, and boys take the father's. (Surnames in that part of the world are a relatively recent addition, mostly dating to Napoleonic law.). It's gendered and thus not so handy if there's a gender change, but it provides an equitable distribution of lineage naming.
I'd kept my family surname after marriage, and was planning on something like this if I ever had kids.
I am Russian, and I've never heard about anything like this. There are always patronyms, like Ivanovich/-vna or Pertovich/-vna, but I've never heard about matronyms.
I don't know why I thought it was generalizable outside Ukrainian/Byelorussian/Russian Jewish lineages, but I've got a bunch of matronyms in the family tree.
As far as I know, Russian tradition is: First Name "gendered father's first name" Family name (which also comes from the father). For example if your family name is Putin and your father's name is Vladimir, and you're a woman, your name would be "patience_limited Vladimirovna Putin" (if you're a man, "patience_limited Vladimirovich Putin").
I'm going to out myself somewhat here, but I've got family tradition on my side: https://mosaicmagazine.com/picks/2018/02/why-many-russian-jewish-surnames-derive-from-the-names-of-women/?print
My wife and I got fairly lucky in that the tradition on her side of the family was to give a family surname as the middle name, so we just gave her last name (which she kept after marriage) to our child as his middle name.
My family's tradition was to give grandparent's names as middle names. So, instead we just gave him one of his grandparents' name as a first name to keep my family's tradition alive.
So, we avoided the hyphenation, which others have mentioned can get messy, and still keep both family's traditions relatively intact.
Why not just make up a last-name and have both partners take that? Or maybe a derivation of an important family member's name, a particularly helpful grand-parent or something. I think there is value in both sides having to change names – fully commit, and it doesn't feel like one person is getting absorbed into the other's identity.