16 votes

Car seat manufacturers and retailers suggest that secondhand ones are unsafe and that they expire every six years or so, but finding any data that supports this is difficult

18 comments

  1. [18]
    bloup
    Link
    How can a car seat "expire"..? What a load of crap. I am so done with giving giant for-profit corps my money.

    How can a car seat "expire"..? What a load of crap. I am so done with giving giant for-profit corps my money.

    5 votes
    1. [16]
      cfabbro
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      My sister is a CPSAC certified car seat technician, safety advocate & instructor. It's not entirely a "load of crap" to claim that car seats will "expire" eventually... the only question is when...

      My sister is a CPSAC certified car seat technician, safety advocate & instructor. It's not entirely a "load of crap" to claim that car seats will "expire" eventually... the only question is when and where that line should be drawn, both from a regulatory standpoint and a parental personal choice one (i.e. How much risk are you willing to assume for your child?).

      Car seat technology has dramatically improved over the years in terms of the materials used in them, manufacturers and government standards, and our understanding of the best methods to protect children during accident. E.g. UASs (universal anchorage systems) were not standard in cars until 2002 but now they are... so car seats made before 2002 are absolutely, undeniably "expired", IMO. And it wasn't until rather recently that rear-facing car seats were a thing, and yet now they're the generally recommended method.

      p.s. Testing is always ongoing, which is why these things keep changing. E.g. Here are the results from the latest round of testing performed by Transport Canada: https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/motorvehiclesafety/safedrivers-childsafety-programs-testing-program-922.htm

      10 votes
      1. [10]
        bloup
        Link Parent
        I still maintain that calling this process "expiration" is wholly dishonest. "Expiration" implies degradation. Improving safety standards doesn't mean that the seat you bought 10 years ago will...

        I still maintain that calling this process "expiration" is wholly dishonest. "Expiration" implies degradation. Improving safety standards doesn't mean that the seat you bought 10 years ago will somehow be more dangerous to use today than it was when you bought it. Maybe relative to existing technology, sure, but in absolute terms no way.

        I guess I'd feel better about the whole thing if car seat manufacturers were mission oriented organizations in the public interest dedicated to keeping children in automobiles safe, and not for-profit businesses trying to make as much money as possible that determined making car seats would be the best way to go about it. When that's how everything works, I am just supposed to take them in good faith that this thing they do that just so happens to significantly benefit them financially is actually in my best interests?

        9 votes
        1. [9]
          sublime_aenima
          Link Parent
          Depending on how the car seat is used and/or stored the plastic in it can definitely “expire” and be less safe than when it was first made or installed. By its very nature plastic will deform...

          Depending on how the car seat is used and/or stored the plastic in it can definitely “expire” and be less safe than when it was first made or installed. By its very nature plastic will deform under so start stress and even more so under extreme temperatures.

          4 votes
          1. [5]
            mat
            Link Parent
            There's a study here about whether age affects the material properties of expanded polystyrene foam (aka crash foam) in bicycle helmets. It does not. Car seats are largely made from the same...

            There's a study here about whether age affects the material properties of expanded polystyrene foam (aka crash foam) in bicycle helmets. It does not. Car seats are largely made from the same stuff, although they tend to have metal frames not the plastic ones you find in bike helmets.

            5 votes
            1. [4]
              sublime_aenima
              Link Parent
              It’s not so much the age, but rather that a car seat is under constant stress and the temperature cycles may or may not affect the plastic as well. I don’t have the time or interest to look into...

              It’s not so much the age, but rather that a car seat is under constant stress and the temperature cycles may or may not affect the plastic as well. I don’t have the time or interest to look into it more, but I can promise that constant stress and extreme temperature cycles will affect the plastic. Now how much stress and which temperatures are considered extreme will depend on the material and duration it is exposed to those variables

              3 votes
              1. [3]
                mat
                Link Parent
                So the car seat I put in my car for my kid is rather better constructed than the seat I get to sit in as a driver. The kid gets a tough metal frame, high density plastics and so on. It's super...

                So the car seat I put in my car for my kid is rather better constructed than the seat I get to sit in as a driver. The kid gets a tough metal frame, high density plastics and so on. It's super well built. Not like the relatively lightweight construction that I sit in. Also baby stuff has to pass a whole raft of safety checks and quality regulations. The seat I sit in also has regulations it has to adhere to, but they're considerably less stringent.

                If what you're saying is true then the seats fitted to all cars should have a shelf life. But I've never heard of that. I've had some pretty ancient cars as well.

                1 vote
                1. [2]
                  Weldawadyathink
                  Link Parent
                  You also have a much better internal safety mechanism than a kid. Adults hold up way better than kids in car crashes. That's why kid car seats exist in the first place. Also, a normal car seat...

                  You also have a much better internal safety mechanism than a kid. Adults hold up way better than kids in car crashes. That's why kid car seats exist in the first place.

                  Also, a normal car seat exists mostly just to prevent whiplash and keep 1/3 of the seat belt anchored. There are other safety devices used for adult protection. I think that airbags do actually have a shelf life, it's just that it's really long compared to a car seat. You are comparing apples to oranges.

                  2 votes
                  1. mat
                    Link Parent
                    Yes, OK, child and adult seats are in some ways different but if the stuff seats are made from degrades with time then it degrades in all sorts of seats, not just kid seats. We already know that...

                    Yes, OK, child and adult seats are in some ways different but if the stuff seats are made from degrades with time then it degrades in all sorts of seats, not just kid seats. We already know that EPS (expanded polystyrene, aka crash foam) doesn't degrade with time, and when you leave EPS out, adult and baby seats share a lot of materials. So if one has an expiration date I don't see why the other wouldn't too. Speaking as someone who has taken apart, repaired and fitted a number of different seats both adult and child, they are fairly similar underneath. So I'd say it's not so much apples to oranges as oranges to slightly different but still broadly comparable oranges.

                    Also, read the article. There is no evidence that children's car seats have an expiry date. Rather the opposite.

          2. [3]
            bloup
            Link Parent
            Considering I have stuff in clamshell packaging from 10 years ago that I still can't open, I really hope my kid's car seat wouldn't start falling apart after only half that time.

            Considering I have stuff in clamshell packaging from 10 years ago that I still can't open, I really hope my kid's car seat wouldn't start falling apart after only half that time.

            4 votes
            1. [2]
              sublime_aenima
              Link Parent
              The car seat won’t necessarily start falling apart, but if u see constant stress (ie properly installed in a car) that causes the plastic to deform. When in an accident, the seat will no longer...

              The car seat won’t necessarily start falling apart, but if u see constant stress (ie properly installed in a car) that causes the plastic to deform. When in an accident, the seat will no longer perform
              to its design specs. That’s not to say your kid would get hurt, but the likelihood definitely increases. These seats are designed with a specified lifecycle in mind and while they would perform well under normal use for probably decades, it’s the non-normal use that they actually protect your kid.

              Personally, I don’t have a problem reusing the seats, but to expect them to perform the same as new after years of use or storage would be disingenuous.

              5 votes
              1. bloup
                Link Parent
                You're right, I hadn't considered that these companies might be literally willing to endanger my kid's life so I buy more car seats from them.

                These seats are designed with a specified lifecycle in mind

                You're right, I hadn't considered that these companies might be literally willing to endanger my kid's life so I buy more car seats from them.

                6 votes
      2. [5]
        mat
        Link Parent
        Is UAS the same as Isofix? Because non-isofix attached seats (ie, ones using the seatbelt around/through the seat) as just as safe as isofix when installed properly. The key thing there is...

        Is UAS the same as Isofix? Because non-isofix attached seats (ie, ones using the seatbelt around/through the seat) as just as safe as isofix when installed properly. The key thing there is 'installed properly' - isofix is much easier to get right, either it's clipped in or it's not, so a much higher proportion of isofix seats are installed properly. But the problem there has nothing to do with the age of the seat and everything to do with the competence of the user. I agree to an extent there's no such thing as user error, just bad design, but still.

        fwiw I just passed on my kid's first car seat to someone who doesn't have isofix points in their car. Not sure I'd consider her vehicle "expired", it's just a bit old.

        3 votes
        1. [4]
          cfabbro
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          I am not the one who is CPSAC certified, and this is all going off conversations with my sister over the years (and designing her website), so take everything I say with a grain of salt. ;) But...

          I am not the one who is CPSAC certified, and this is all going off conversations with my sister over the years (and designing her website), so take everything I say with a grain of salt. ;) But AFAIK yes, UAS is just the Canadian variant on Isofix, and while it's true that it's basically just an easier to use system and there is generally no difference in terms of safety using it than a "properly installed" non-UAS/Isofix seat or car... that part really, really shouldn't be glossed over, IMO. See: https://www.cbc.ca/news/child-car-seats-keeping-your-child-safer-in-your-car-1.783867 (I had this link handy since it's a citation on my sister's site ;)

          Various surveys have found that as many as 90 per cent of child safety seats are installed incorrectly.

          The British Columbia Automobile Association randomly checked the installations of 1,000 child car seats. Only seven per cent had been installed correctly.

          Clinics held by Ontario's Ministry of Transportation have found that as many as 80 per cent of car seats are improperly installed.

          And while only anecdotal, my sister has seen very similar (sometimes even worse) results while doing her free car seat installation spot checks and clinics with St. John Ambulance and several local Ontario fire departments. So sure, while you could definitely make the claim that non-UAS/Isofix cars and car seats are still perfectly fine, the unfortunate reality is that turns out not to be true in a large % of cases.

          p.s. If you or someone you know is going to use an older non-UAS/Isofix seat, at the very least you should have a certified tech teach you how to properly install it, IMO. My sister does a bunch of free clinics every year, and also offers private checks/installations/lesson here in Ontario, Canada. But if you're American, I can't remember what the US equivalent to the CPSAC is, but I do know it exists and they offer similar services... so you should perhaps recommend your friend look into it?

          5 votes
          1. [3]
            mat
            Link Parent
            I'm in the UK, not the US, but yeah. I do have some trouble understanding how people put car seats in wrong. But then Trump, Brexit, etc. I guess. People always manage to surprise me. I heard 75%...

            I'm in the UK, not the US, but yeah. I do have some trouble understanding how people put car seats in wrong. But then Trump, Brexit, etc. I guess. People always manage to surprise me.

            I heard 75% non-isofix seats in wrong recently, I think. Even 30% of isofix ones are wrong and how you do that I have no idea. I have a car seat in front of me right now and I cannot understand how the instructions could be (a) more clear and (b) interpreted incorrectly. I spent ages double and triple checking when I put this seat in (before I knew it was out of date and took it out again) because I'd heard most are put in wrong and I worried it seemed too easy. Nope. It really is very straightforward.

            My friend is on her third kid now and is both intelligent and capable, I'm confident she can manage a car seat. Also she works for the local council, so she already knows they offer free classes in "putting a fucking seatbelt through a gap in the one way it actually fits" if required.

            Appreciate your concern though, and I do genuinely mean that, even if it might sound sarcastic.

            2 votes
            1. cfabbro
              Link Parent
              Yeah, I don't quite understand how you can fuck it up so bad either, but lots of people apparently unfortunately do. My sister has some real horror stories from her inspections too... like ones...

              Yeah, I don't quite understand how you can fuck it up so bad either, but lots of people apparently unfortunately do. My sister has some real horror stories from her inspections too... like ones where the belt straps were all in the completely wrong spots, or so loose the child could fully lean forward and even partially tip the seat forward (which would likely result in severe head/neck injury in even a minor crash). :/

              1 vote
            2. hamstergeddon
              Link Parent
              I can see if you were in a rush you could maybe overlook something and not do the non-isofix setup correctly. Or at least I can see myself doing that because despite having a docking systems for...

              I can see if you were in a rush you could maybe overlook something and not do the non-isofix setup correctly. Or at least I can see myself doing that because despite having a docking systems for our car seats, we often have to swap them between vehicles last minute. I'm glad that the isofix is there to make it quick/easy to do it correctly and safely. Although in my case it's for twins, so its twice the effort and twice as many things that can go wrong.

              1 vote
    2. Bamans
      Link Parent
      Jumping into this a little late, but for what it’s worth, racing harnesses (seatbelts used in motorsport) expire after 5 years, after which a FIA sanctioned event won’t let you compete with the...

      Jumping into this a little late, but for what it’s worth, racing harnesses (seatbelts used in motorsport) expire after 5 years, after which a FIA sanctioned event won’t let you compete with the harness. (https://www.schroth.com/en/segments/racing/service/faq/faq-racing-belts.html). Part of a pre-event safety inspection involves a Marshall checking the belt’s expiration. Doesn’t entirely justify car seats expiring, but does show the concern exists in another industry that has rules intended to protect human life.

      6 votes