46 votes

Reclaiming real American patriotism

23 comments

  1. [10]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. [7]
      0x29A
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      I think a lot has to happen first before I go having a position that America is about expansion/protection of rights. Redefining America in my own cute way is not going to get rid of the baggage...

      I think a lot has to happen first before I go having a position that America is about expansion/protection of rights. Redefining America in my own cute way is not going to get rid of the baggage we still carry and the fact that America continues to define itself in all sorts of ways that I refuse to support.

      Not to mention, the things that I value are things that should NOT be uniquely American. My values do not have borders. I'm tired in general of striving for something that remotely resembles some special respect or feeling about our "nation" or thinking in any sense that America is exceptional. I get what you're saying- let's try to make America stand for something good- which while I like the sentiment, and some people may find a way of pushing that forward, sure, but for me, I no longer even have the ability to muster any kind of desire to display the flag. It feels contradictory.

      Sure I don't want to "cede" that to the right- but either way, we really aren't- the right's "patriotism" is empty, performative, nationalist garbage. I think the kind of "patriotism" that speaks the truest, does good things, tries to improve a nation, tries to even move the perception of what a nation is, is the one that doesn't have to self-declare it or fly its flag.

      I will not for a second expect the oppressed to cede an inch to their still-oppressors or the colonized to do the same to their still-colonizers

      27 votes
      1. [7]
        Comment deleted by author
        Link Parent
        1. [3]
          0x29A
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          America's borders do not currently represent that protection, though. The very little good progress we've made is a drop in the bucket of what is necessary. I'll fly the flag once it represents my...

          America's borders do not currently represent that protection, though. The very little good progress we've made is a drop in the bucket of what is necessary.

          I'll fly the flag once it represents my values and not a second before. Actually even then, I might find it disgusting to fly the flag of an imperialist nation. Let's say America all of a sudden becomes a beacon of rights and values that align with my views. Why would I fly its baggage-ridden flag still? Why would I turn it into something nation-based?

          Maybe I should choose a different country, or even a specific state flag? Idk. I find no reason to fly specifically an American one just because I was by chance born here, nor do I want to contribute to any other nationalist or statist tendencies. That's why non-nation flags are superior. I'll continue flying LGBTQ/Trans rights, leftist, and religiously-adversarial symbols. Find me one of the least problematic, most progressive nations in the world, and maybe I'll fly that flag instead (not really, but it gets at the point)

          I just disagree that it'll do anything for the cause. It's not going to convince anyone on the right of anything (??) Me acting patriotic doesn't convince the right of anything- they just see me as an anti-American "poser" that is trying to steal the "real" America from them. I am okay with being the adversary they see me as.

          The problem is, to have even the slightest hint of a feeling of flying the American flag, America would have to do things it will never, ever do- undo all the harm it's done to indigenous populations, do reparations and other forms of justice for POC, etc, etc, etc.

          16 votes
          1. [3]
            Comment deleted by author
            Link Parent
            1. [2]
              elfpie
              Link Parent
              I'm from Brazil (LGBTQ POC individual) and did some research to dispel some of the potential bias I might have. It was a good idea because you were right. The USA is one of the least problematic,...

              I'm from Brazil (LGBTQ POC individual) and did some research to dispel some of the potential bias I might have. It was a good idea because you were right. The USA is one of the least problematic, but Brazil is as well and that’s somewhat horrifying considering I’m well acquainted with our reality. [ https://www.equaldex.com/equality-index ]

              Doing the research, I think I found one relevant argument about the flag and patriotism. To be honest, I don’t believe in patriotism. Here, as over there, each state can have very strong points of view. The difference being we are protected in a federal level, legally speaking. What I mean is that people are already in a situation in the USA in which they have to flee from one part of the country to another part of the same one to escape governmental persecution. You can wave the flag to represent both sides. A symbol in contradiction.

              We are in a similar situation here with our colors used by one part of the population to oppress the other. When one symbol is smeared, it’s hard to take it back (the swastika is there as the great tragic example to the west). Our situation, here and there, is not so dire, but that fight is not the priority. If things go well in other fronts, I believe the flags will come back on their own.

              3 votes
              1. GenuinelyCrooked
                Link Parent
                The site that you linked is so frustrating to me. They have a lot of great, detailed, sourced information if you click through anywhere, but in the rankings they have America up really high...

                The site that you linked is so frustrating to me. They have a lot of great, detailed, sourced information if you click through anywhere, but in the rankings they have America up really high despite so many of the metrics showing "varies by region". It seems like America got credit for all the most progressive states, even though some states are actively going backwards.

                1 vote
        2. [3]
          MangoTiger
          Link Parent
          How so? How specifically does waving a flag do a lot for the cause?

          it'd probably do a lot for your cause if you added the American flag to your repertoire as well.

          How so? How specifically does waving a flag do a lot for the cause?

          9 votes
          1. [2]
            Comment deleted by author
            Link Parent
            1. GenuinelyCrooked
              Link Parent
              I like to wave the bisexual flag so other bisexual people feel safe and know they can come out, or at least talk to me. I don't know that anyone needs to come out as American. If someone would...

              I like to wave the bisexual flag so other bisexual people feel safe and know they can come out, or at least talk to me. I don't know that anyone needs to come out as American. If someone would want to talk to me because of my American flag but not because of my bisexual flag, I'm not sure I'd want to talk to them.

              1 vote
          2. takeda
            Link Parent
            Conservatives successfully painted liberals as people who hate their country, they go further and do the similar thing to various minorities. All of those outrages about kneeling for example are...

            Conservatives successfully painted liberals as people who hate their country, they go further and do the similar thing to various minorities.

            All of those outrages about kneeling for example are used to reenforce this narrative. A lot of people are ignorant and aren't even aware of many issues.

            Breaking this stereotype could help gaining people who might be neutral towards your issue, or maybe even slightly supportive, but being afraid to support it to be perceived by their peers as being "unpatriotic".

            You might not agree with things country is doing, but to improve it, you need to work with other Americans under a common goal.

            Don't wave the flag for what the country is, but wave it for what country you can be. Apathy is what helps evil people ruin our country.

            3 votes
    2. [2]
      Greatwhitebuffalo
      Link Parent
      As an outsider, America focuses so much on folks origins that I don't think people see themselves as 'American'. People are not just american. They are italian american or irish american or...

      As an outsider, America focuses so much on folks origins that I don't think people see themselves as 'American'. People are not just american. They are italian american or irish american or armenian american etc. Not sure how that plays into the left vs right thing but I rarely hear folks declare themselves "american" unless destroying bud beers or the like.

      1. Caliwyrm
        Link Parent
        "United we stand, divided we fall" There is power in keeping us divided amongst ourselves. Those with power and money keep and expand it while most people are busy blaming each other instead of...

        "United we stand, divided we fall"

        There is power in keeping us divided amongst ourselves. Those with power and money keep and expand it while most people are busy blaming each other instead of working together to lift everyone up. Basically it can be boiled down to crab mentality .

        Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"

        He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"

        He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"

        Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.

        1 vote
  2. [4]
    hamitosis
    (edited )
    Link
    I agree with the goal sentiment of the article, but I wish Tom Nichols (author) left out the ad hominems. It undermines the primary appeal of the article. In the United States we are and have been...
    • Exemplary

    I agree with the goal sentiment of the article, but I wish Tom Nichols (author) left out the ad hominems. It undermines the primary appeal of the article.

    In the United States we are and have been one nation not in spite of our differences but because of them. Because we not only allow or tolerate our fellow countrymen and countrywomen to have differing opinions, but because we desire a place where we can have them. And because we have and would defend against any who would try to infringe on the “unalienable rights”. Foreign or domestic. Sadly, as the author points out, those attacks can come and have come from within.

    We believed and should still believe in these rights inherent to not only our own citizens but of all mankind across the world.

    I’m proud to stand with all those who call the United States of America home. Blue or Red, Black or White, Gay or Straight we are one nation and one people.

    Happy Independence Day fellow American Tilders.

    21 votes
    1. psi
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      If you removed the ad hominems, you'd be gutting the article; all that would remain would be an obsequious piece about how much better the USA is than the USSR. Nicholas is capturing a sentiment...

      If you removed the ad hominems, you'd be gutting the article; all that would remain would be an obsequious piece about how much better the USA is than the USSR.

      Nicholas is capturing a sentiment most of us left-of-center feel: it's hard to be patriotic when American patriotism has been supplanted by MAGA-ism. But MAGA-ism is a shallow form of patriotism, an ideology fundamentally opposed to the differences that make America unique and only serving to glorify a worldview that the majority of Americans disagree with.

      It is not a philosophy that tolerates differences; it would marginalize LGBT folk back into the closet (or worse); it would have non-Christians as second-class citizens; it would eliminate the protections given to women and minorities over the past century.

      But when MAGA extremists claim to be the only true patriots, how are the rest of us supposed to feel? Certainly we do not feel included in their America when leaders like Marjorie Taylor Green call for a "national divorce".

      So sure, we all long for the day we can forget about politics. But right now, when the stakes have seldom been higher, and when every election is the most important election, it's hard to set politics aside.

      9 votes
    2. guamisc
      Link Parent
      The appeal of the article is to accurately describe how one side has perverted "American values" and used those for their own ends. Without what you've described as as hominems, the article would...

      The appeal of the article is to accurately describe how one side has perverted "American values" and used those for their own ends. Without what you've described as as hominems, the article would have no real point at all.

      Ad hominem attacks are completely valid when the character and actions of the people being attacked are extremely relevant to the point being discussed.

      In this article, that's the very thing being discussed. As you say:

      Because we not only allow or tolerate our fellow countrymen and countrywomen to have differing opinions, but because we desire a place where we can have them. And because we have and would defend against any who would try to infringe on the “unalienable rights”. Foreign or domestic. Sadly, as the author points out, those attacks can come and have come from within.

      How can we talk about the attacks coming from within without talking about those who are doing the attacking or without showing their actions and beliefs? To make such an argument without discussing the source of the problem would end up as a useless gesture, akin so saying "wouldn't it be nice if we just practiced one love?"

      5 votes
    3. itdepends
      Link Parent
      This is a very nice thought about what a country could be and stand for, but in no way what any country has ever stood for. The US has never been this: No country has ever been this. It's a sad...

      This is a very nice thought about what a country could be and stand for, but in no way what any country has ever stood for.

      The US has never been this:

      but because we desire a place where we can have them. And because we have and would defend against any who would try to infringe on the “unalienable rights”. Foreign or domestic. Sadly, as the author points out, those attacks can come and have come from within.

      We believed and should still believe in these rights inherent to not only our own citizens but of all mankind across the world.

      No country has ever been this. It's a sad fact but pretty much every modern state's history is rife with abuse and intolerance.

      It's a wonderful thought you have and I hope one day we get to witness this version of the USA.

      1 vote
  3. [5]
    fyzzlefry
    Link
    I don't hate the concept, but I don't personally have a lot of reasons to be proud of my country right now. I know things can always get worse, but over the past 20 years it looks like we keep...

    I don't hate the concept, but I don't personally have a lot of reasons to be proud of my country right now. I know things can always get worse, but over the past 20 years it looks like we keep heading in the direction of worse.

    If we can get rid of the massive wealth disparity, I'll start thinking about it.

    19 votes
    1. [3]
      Axelia
      Link Parent
      I think you can be patriotic and love your country while still recognizing and calling out the parts of it that suck. Truly loving something includes wanting it to be the best it can be, and that...

      I think you can be patriotic and love your country while still recognizing and calling out the parts of it that suck. Truly loving something includes wanting it to be the best it can be, and that involves identifying any problems and wanting to improve. I get frustrated when people are called "unAmerican" or accused of not loving their country when they are critical of it. Being critical is a sign to me that one does care, and indeed cares enough to want America to reach its full potential.

      16 votes
      1. [2]
        fyzzlefry
        Link Parent
        I think love for one's country can't be unconditional. I didn't choose to live here, I was born here. Some say that's a privilege and I'm not here to say they're wrong but again, this wasn't my...

        I think love for one's country can't be unconditional. I didn't choose to live here, I was born here. Some say that's a privilege and I'm not here to say they're wrong but again, this wasn't my choice. Fate has me here.
        I want to improve things in the US. I also want them to improve in my city, my county, my hemisphere and my planet.

        There's value in appreciating the good things that a person has available to them, and there's value in recognizing faults and working to improve them. I don't see how patriotism helps either though.

        4 votes
        1. takeda
          Link Parent
          I think you're conflating nationalism (which is promoted by conservatives) with patriotism (which is live for the county and wanting it to be better). Conservatives for decades were building the...

          I think you're conflating nationalism (which is promoted by conservatives) with patriotism (which is live for the county and wanting it to be better).

          Conservatives for decades were building the image that liberals hate America, and that undermines us. Many ignorant people who could be neutral or maybe even sympathetic towards some causes we care about might be turned off by this rhetoric and we need majority to be able to change things.

          4 votes
    2. Caliwyrm
      Link Parent
      I think that is letting perfect be the enemy of good, though. Yes, America obviously has problems. However, I also think its time to start taking things back from the right. They like to paint...

      I think that is letting perfect be the enemy of good, though.

      Yes, America obviously has problems.

      However, I also think its time to start taking things back from the right. They like to paint anyone who disagrees with them as unpatriotic. Let's take that back.

      Put an American flag next to a Pro-Choice, Pride, Bernie, "I read banned books" or "Don't be a dick" bumper-sticker or flag. Remind everyone that Americans are made up of every race, belief and walk of life. We can be patriotic while still being critical of things we want to see changed for the better.

      3 votes
  4. [2]
    autumnlicious
    Link
    I find it hard to believe in a country where a significant minority of ultra conservatives can pass special rights to harm people like me. I find it hard to be patriotic when America has betrayed...

    I find it hard to believe in a country where a significant minority of ultra conservatives can pass special rights to harm people like me. I find it hard to be patriotic when America has betrayed me first and foremost because we as a people have decided catering to ultra conservative feelings takes precedence over my civil rights. Over my rights to medical privacy as a woman who happens to be transgender and pansexual.

    The only rights my country seems to believe in is the right to lie, to deceive, to spread as many recycled and tired variants of blood libel (against Jewish people, against my people, against people with darker skins, etc).

    How can I believe in a country like that? “Free speech” has become a nifty excuse to make America into something more akin to a Christian Pakistan than anything else.

    The only thing I believe in is my state. America is a dead idea, killed dead by mendacious rightwing agitators and propagandists.

    12 votes
    1. horseplay
      Link Parent
      I cannot and will not begrudge what you say, because I cannot say that you are wrong. At any rate, I hope you vote, and I hope those close to you share your values, and vote as well. I believe...

      I cannot and will not begrudge what you say, because I cannot say that you are wrong. At any rate, I hope you vote, and I hope those close to you share your values, and vote as well.
      I believe voter apathy has contributed to, or outright caused, the current situation. And while recent elections seem to reflect that voter apathy may be on the decline, a reduction must continue, especially among the <35 demo. Complacency and/or a return to apathy would be unfortunate.

      8 votes
  5. Lloyd
    Link
    All of human history could be described as a continual struggle against the idea that 'might equals right'. This includes economic might. There is no reason to believe that humanity reached the...

    All of human history could be described as a continual struggle against the idea that 'might equals right'. This includes economic might. There is no reason to believe that humanity reached the pinnacle of egalitarianism in 1776. It is possible to want things to be better while acknowledging the good (and bad) that extant nations have done. That said, nationalism and patriotism are both merely versions of ethnocentrism under a different name.

    In my opinion we should all be environmentalists or at the very least humanists, but not nationalists in any way.

    3 votes
  6. pridefulofbeing
    Link
    This envisions a "before-time" when America was not divided, see below: This is the "now-time" when we feel divided as a country. Were we ever fully united? I will admit, it does feel palpably...

    Patriotism, unlike its ugly half brother, nationalism, is rooted in optimism and confidence; nationalism is a sour inferiority complex, a sullen attachment to blood-and-soil fantasies that is always looking abroad with insecurity and even hatred. Instead, I was taking in the New England shoreline but seeing in my mind the Blue Ridge Mountains, and I felt moved with wonder—and gratitude—for the miracle that is the United States.

    • This envisions a "before-time" when America was not divided, see below:

    How I miss that feeling. Because usually when I think of West Virginia these days, my first thought tends to be: red state. I now see many voters there, and in other states, as my civic opponents. I know that many of them likely hear “Boston” and they, too, think of a place filled with their blue-state enemies. I feel that I’m at a great distance from so many of my fellow citizens, as do they, I’m sure, from people like me. And I hate it.

    • This is the "now-time" when we feel divided as a country. Were we ever fully united? I will admit, it does feel palpably different to me as well. But, I was never this age before - I only have my previous memories, at different ages, life experiences, and chapters in my own life. It is impossible for me to reflect on things with the same mind, brain, and body as I have now, in the past.

    If, however, we ran into anyone else from the United States, perhaps during a tour or in the hotel, most of us reacted as if we were all long-lost friends. The distances in the U.S. shrank to nothing. Boston and Jackson, Chicago and Dallas, Sacramento and Charlotte—all of us at that point were next-door neighbors meeting in a harsh and hostile land. It is difficult today to explain to a globalized and mobile generation the sense of fellowship evoked by encountering Americans overseas in the days when international travel was a rarer luxury than it is now. But to meet other Americans in a place such as the Soviet Union was often like a family reunion despite all of us being complete strangers.

    • Yes! I can relate to this experience while traveling abroad. For me, it is most salient when I am in a country that does not commonly speak English, and I find someone I can communicate directly with. Not only by a sense of national identity/origin, but commonality in general! In fact, it appears that it is the sense of common ground, found in a remote place that makes it feel so much more stark. Scarcity breeds a sense of worth and value. Perhaps it is also the unexpected nature of this encounter! Contrast, after all, stands out from the baseline in a new environment, land, or situation.

    When I think of [[Ohio]], for example, I no longer think (as I did for most of my life) of a heartland state and the birthplace of presidents. Instead, I wonder how my fellow American citizens there could have sent to Congress such disgraceful poltroons as Jim Jordan and J. D. Vance—men, in my view, whose fidelity to the Constitution takes a back seat to personal ambition, and whose love of country I will, without reservation, call into question.

    They’re Americans, and like it or not, we are bound to one another in one of the greatest and most noble experiments in human history. Our destiny together, stand or fall, is inescapable.

    Tomorrow, we can go back to bickering. But just for this Fourth, I hope we can all try, with an open spirit, to think of our fellow Americans as friends and family, brothers and sisters, and people whose hands we would gratefully clasp if we met in a faraway and dangerous place.

    2 votes
  7. scojjac
    (edited )
    Link
    I don’t think there’s use in distinguishing between patriotism and nationalism. Patriotism, at best, is simply a step on the road to nationalism. One is devotion to and vigorous support of, one is...

    I don’t think there’s use in distinguishing between patriotism and nationalism. Patriotism, at best, is simply a step on the road to nationalism. One is devotion to and vigorous support of, one is identification with and support of its interests, especially (but not only) to the exclusion of others.

    In practice, American patriotism is nationalism. The idea of “American exceptionalism” is nationalism. Saying a pledge of allegiance in school is nationalism.

    The American obsession with flying the flag outside of one’s home is wild if you have traveled. I don’t think any country’s citizens are as likely to fly their flag as Americans are. But the growing reticence to fly the flag seems to reflect Germany’s complicated relationship to its national symbols. They’ve already been co-opted and tainted, and the only thing exceptional is how impossible it is to get that stain out.

    1 vote