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The West is losing Muslim Liberals – Indifference to Palestinian suffering in Gaza is alienating moderates across the Islamic world and tarnishing the appeal of liberal democratic values
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There are so many responses I have to this:
I have yet to see any solution to the Hamas come from the Palestine side. Without any solution it's going to end in war inevitably.
What I have trouble sympathizing with is the use of civilian deaths as a sympathy tactic. This war is literally want Hamas wants. The goal of the ruling Gaza government is to get enough of its own citizens killed so the rest of the world punishes Israel. It should be condemned, yet it isn't. And I don't know why people seem to ignore that fact.
What we're seeing play out is pretty clear radicalization. If you dehumanize a population, kill family members, and provide no outlet for betterment, hope, or exit you end up with what we see now. Palestinian's don't have the resources to come up with "solutions" at the moment, food, water, and shelter take priority; and they haven't been seriously engaged with when they have in the past.
Everyone and their mom condemned the violence on October 7th. Now we're condemning the outsized response from Israel. Hamas showcasing the brutality of the current regime doesn't absolve the people or government of Israel doing the actual killing. There are plenty of ways to go about hostage recovery and disarming, I don't think carpet bombing refugee camps is a particularly valid one.
Yea.. This is the problem with these arguments. You immediately assume because I am disgusted with Hamas actions you think I support Israel's.
Action needed to be taken against Hamas. Israel is not taking the right action, not even close.
There have been lots of Palestinian peace proposals over the last 75 years? Other Palestinian groups have opposed Hamas (e.g. the PA) but Netanyahu has done a lot to dismantle it. Hamas is also a kind of by-product of intense Israeli oppresession and subjugation of the Palestinians, and Netanyahu has kind of supported Hamas – see e.g. a very recent report from an ex-Israeli intelligence official that Netanyahu refused to take action to cut funding to Hamas or this opinion piece in the Times of Israel.
Who do you feel isn't condemning Hamas? It's been pretty widely condemned IMO. I also don't really think that civilians deaths are being used as a "sympathy tactic" – we generally want to avoid civilian deaths so it makes sense to criticise people who kill civilians.
So, you pointing to the last 75 years and prior solutions is not really what I'm referring to. I'm referring to solution about the removal of Hamas . If Palestine can't even agree that the Hamas org is a terrorist group, by its goals, then you're back at square one.
Looking in history you can play victim sides all day long . It makes jt easy to justify whatever you want in a present conflict .
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/11/14/hamas-human-shields-tactic/
Logistically, how could they do that? They have been fleeing bombs and mostly just dying. You think they can have an election? Organize? Do you truly believe Israel would stop killing them, no matter what they say? Netanyahu has already openly said he won't stop. They hace publicly celebrated their plans to build more settlements on the recently "vacated" lands. They are being massacred I'm not sure what your expectation is.
Annihilation
by this logic, anyone who is opposed to Hamas...should support an immediate and unconditional ceasefire, yes?
Yup! As long as it is held by both sides, and not used to re arm.
The problem is there is no trust, and trust is required for any ceasefire. I personally would love a ceasefire.. But I also understand the US logic for wanting to add terms to ensure trust
Do you sincerely believe that Hamas wants a Palestinian genocide just to garner some sympathy points for themselves? Do you think that Hamas is intentionally making Israeli soldiers butcher children?
I cannot imagine having this mindset, where one has more issue with the victims than the murderers. Surely one should be more upset at the Israelis for shooting civilians than at Hamas for the crime of counting their dead?
To be fair, I think the truth is not far off from this. Hamas is led by people living in luxury hotels in Qatar who have a history of heading terrorist attacks against innocent people. I am confident that they are perfectly happy sacrificing random Palestinians when it serves their purposes.
Unfortunately, I don't think Israeli leadership is any better. They have a history of sacrificing Israeli lives for political purposes, a policy which seems to have continued even during the October 7th attack as reported by survivors of these allegedly intentional friendly fire events. And, of course, we also know that they funded Hamas against the more moderate Palestinian Authority.
So what we have is two groups led by psychopaths who are demonstrably willing to sacrifice innocent people to further their political goals, participating in a conflict where their power is built upon a unite-against-the-enemy mindset. They have long benefited from each other's ever-present, ever-threatening existence—and now they benefit from high numbers of civilian deaths that they can blame on each other and use to paint themselves as their people's only bastion for peace and prosperity.
I, personally, oppose Israel more strongly than Hamas solely because they have killed far more people, they are capable of far more destruction, and I am in a better position to do something about it (as someone who votes in two democracies allied with Israel). But I personally have no doubts that, were their places traded, we'd be seeing "30,000 Israelis killed" rather than "30,000 Palestinians killed" in the news.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/11/14/hamas-human-shields-tactic/
If we are having a disagreement, and so I goad you into hurting an innocent bystander and then call the police arrest you, I am a bad person — but so are you, and you should be arrested for it.
One person's evil does not magically make their enemies good.
Yup! Problem with these posts is people somehow think condemning Hamas is supporting Israel's actions.
You're kind of point in case for what I'm trying to describe
I perceived your comment as defending Israel's actions because it implies that this war is Hamas's doing:
This wording makes it sound as if Hamas is forcing Israel to kill Palestinian civilians.
Hamas undoubtedly benefits politically from these deaths, and they certainly did launch the terrorist attack that set off this particular invasion — but, ultimately, Israel's leadership is responsible for their own actions: they can unilaterally stop killing Palestinians, whereas Hamas cannot unilaterally make them stop killing Palestinians. Hamas is wrong for a whole lot of reasons, but they are right to hope that the world punishes Israel for this.
The civilians aren't dying because it's war and it's an accident, or it's a mishap. They are being deliberately and brutally exterminated. They have zero power to defend themselves, or to leave the area. Literally, they are powerless, they aren't fighting a war. You are intentionally conflating combatants with civilians, and implying that civilians are somehow responsible or deserving of this consequence. The article you linked about pausing aid makes NO mention of Hamas hoarding anything. You inserted that yourself. It explains a truck was attacked by starving people. Israel is not letting aid through. There are miles of trucks outside the border that are not being allowed in. It's a war crime.
The first article you linked (from 10 years ago) explains Palestinians being tortured and forced to cooperate with Hamas under threat of death. These people are wiped off the face of the earth by Israel and you are making up excuses to why they kind of deserve it, and it's not actually that bad????? Israelis are documenting their own war crimes, Palestinians are documenting their genocide, you can see for yourself if you look.
I heard a phone call of a 6 year old girl in a car with her aunt, uncle, and cousins. All shot by soldiers and killed in front of her while trying to flee to a safer zone. Parents and children. The IDF blew them to pieces. She was able to make a phone call to beg for help. Israel gave permission to an ambulance to get her. When the ambulance arrived, it was bombed. Her body was found days later. There is photographic proof and audio of everything I just said. There are so many more stories like this. IDF is sniping mothers running away with their children. I have seen this with my own eyes, it is documented. To make excuses like you've made, you'd have to be trying so hard not to look. Or you just don't see them as people. I promise you if there were terrorists under a hospital in your town, you would not excuse your government for bombing the hospital (and the whole neighborhood) with everyone inside.
sigh. this is....just literal whataboutism.
there's a crucial difference here that you're missing.
I live in the US. I'm mad about the actions of Hamas. there's nothing that I can do about it, though.
obviously, every morning since October 7th, I have woken up, gotten out of bed, and shouted "I CONDEMN HAMAS" at the top of my lungs. my neighbors have complained (I suspect they may be anti-semitic) but other than that it's had zero impact on the world.
meanwhile, I'm also mad about the actions of Israel. but in this case there is something I can do about it. the US government sends billions of dollars per year to Israeli's military. I can lobby my elected representatives and tell them I think they should stop sending aid to Israel until and unless Israel stops committing war crimes. I could even tell them this issue matters enough to me that if they don't, I will vote for their opponent in the next election or even (*gasp*) withhold my vote entirely in that particular race.
if you'd like, anytime I write a letter to my Congressional representatives saying I think they should withdraw military aid from Israel, I will include a little "PS, please withdraw all US military aid from Hamas as well" at the end. would that satisfy your criteria for determining if my anger is legitimate or not?
It's not correct to think that precision weapons lower the civilian death toll in this case. The soldiers are targeting civilians with them. I would have struggled to believe that, were it not for modern social media and the fact that all 3 sides of this bloodbath are documenting everything and posting it online. IDF soldiers are posting what they do, sometimes bragging about their brutality. Hamas is posting footage of their militants shooting at IDF and trying to make it look cool. And civilians are posting their children and loved ones being killed and mostly just begging for help. I am never going to be able to forget the things I've looked at since October and it seems to have no end. They are emptying Gaza so they can re-settle it, it's ethnic cleansing. Honestly I think everyone in this thread making excuses for Israel's army and government have just not seen any of the footage.
From what I can gather, it looks to me like the article you have linked here is defining civilians as people who are not soldiers.
In the Gaza conflict, however, every estimate I have seen so far defines civilians as people who are not men of fighting age. This means that every time a Palestinian man between the ages of 18 and 59 is killed, that is counted as a combatant death, not a civilian death. This makes the civilian casualty percentage look a lot lower than it actually is because most men are not fighting. However, there is not currently a way to differentiate between civilian data and militant data, so this is what researchers are stuck with.
Every estimate I've seen, at least coming from credible sources, emphasizes that their estimate of civilian deaths is a lower bound, and the actual rate of civilian deaths is going to be much higher.
Like the fundamental religious groups at the helm in Israel leading this current genocide.
Yeah, people express issues with ultra-orthodox Jews all the time.