16 votes

Is there a documentary from a reputable source that documents the relationship between the Jews and Israel/Palestine?

Ever since the Hamas attack, I think I have understood the position of the Palestinians, that they were there first and then Britain unfairly divided up the landed and gave some of it to Jews so they could have a homeland where they wouldn't have to deal with Anti-semitism after what they went through during WWII.

But Jews/Zionists claim that they have some ancestral right to that land and I have not found it easy to come across anything from a reputable source that explains what backs up their claim (wikipedia and random YouTube videos don't count).

11 comments

  1. AnEarlyMartyr
    Link
    I mean you're looking for a history of Zionism. My best understanding is that the argument for a right is primarily based around biblical claims and the fact that Jerusalem was the center of a...

    I mean you're looking for a history of Zionism. My best understanding is that the argument for a right is primarily based around biblical claims and the fact that Jerusalem was the center of a Jewish state and Jewish cultural and religious life before the fall of the 2nd temple in approximately 70 CE. So the area making up much of modern day Israel and Palestine has been regularly and consistently thought of as a kind of homeland for centuries/millennia and has continuously had some form of Jewish presence, even if sometimes a minority presence, since ancient times. In the 19th century, persecution/anti-semitism along with new ideas like nation states, and the idea of a right to national self determination lead to the rise of a movement that argued for the creation of a Jewish state in what was viewed as the historical homeland.

    This is an extremely simplified explanation, which frankly can be a bit dangerous when it comes to such a controversial topic that is both incredibly nuanced and incredibly politically charged. This area isn't really a specialty for me but I can answer maybe really simple questions or point you towards some more sources.

    Here's a couple of books on the history of Zionism as an idea:

    The Zionist Ideology by Gideon Shimoni or online through the Internet Archive here

    Zionism A Brief History or online through the Internet Archive here

    14 votes
  2. [2]
    krellor
    (edited )
    Link
    It's fairly difficult anymore to find an unbiased source. However, I have a few things I would suggest you look into. I'm not sure if these exactly answer the questions you have, but I'm happy to...

    It's fairly difficult anymore to find an unbiased source. However, I have a few things I would suggest you look into. I'm not sure if these exactly answer the questions you have, but I'm happy to answer follow up questions or point to additional sources. In no particular order:

    8 votes
  3. vili
    Link
    I did a bit of reading following the attacks in October, trying to wrap my head around the history of the conflict, like I have done when tensions have risen. I can't say I came out with any sort...

    I did a bit of reading following the attacks in October, trying to wrap my head around the history of the conflict, like I have done when tensions have risen. I can't say I came out with any sort of a better understanding of what ways out of the cycle of violence there could be, but I can recommend The Routledge Handbook on the Israeli–Palestinian Conflict as a fairly good, level-headed and pretty kaleidoscopic look at the history and potential futures of the conflict.

    Other books that I found interesting, although always fairly biased towards or against one side, were Alain Dieckhoff's The Invention of a Nation, Maryanne A. Rhett's The Global History of the Balfour Declaration, and Jean-Pierre Filiu's Gaza. I must stress though, that each of those books presents a fairly one-sided view of the situation. What I liked about the Routledge Handbook, which I read after these (and others), was its more academically neutral overall approach, although individual authors do lean towards one side more than the other there as well.

    7 votes
  4. smoontjes
    Link
    I know you said Youtube doesn't count. I really question that though and will recommend this regardless: Did the British Start the Israel-Palestine Conflict? - History Documentary It is made by a...

    I know you said Youtube doesn't count. I really question that though and will recommend this regardless:

    Did the British Start the Israel-Palestine Conflict? - History Documentary

    It is made by a channel and people that are real historians, do their research really well, they always source everything, and they try to be as objective and unbiased as they can. It is just as trustworthy as anything not on Youtube - in my humble opinion. It answers a lot of your questions about the background of it. It's a good, bitesized overview.

    6 votes
  5. boxer_dogs_dance
    Link
    I'm working my way through the book Enemies and Neighbors by Ian Black. It's thorough and well researched

    I'm working my way through the book Enemies and Neighbors by Ian Black. It's thorough and well researched

    4 votes
  6. kingofsnake
    Link
    I'd check out the Wikipedia articles on Palestine, Israel, the wars that took place during and before Israel's formation and the demographics living there throughout that period. Look back to what...

    I'd check out the Wikipedia articles on Palestine, Israel, the wars that took place during and before Israel's formation and the demographics living there throughout that period.

    Look back to what life and demographics were like in the Levant when the Ottomans were there, and also explore the treatment of both peoples in the region.

    To me, both have a legitimate claim to victimhood, to the land and to grievances about actions the other has taken against them. It's a total mess, and the kind of layered issue with no clear 'side' to blame.

    The New York Times has some great podcasts about events that transformed the area throughout history. This is a good one about Israel's creation

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/03/podcasts/the-daily/israel-palestine-1948.html

    2 votes
  7. [4]
    nukeman
    Link
    Two points on “Why Palestine/The Holy Land”: A continuous Jewish presence in the area for millennia. Related to (1), virtually all of the holy artifacts and sites related to Judaism and the Jewish...

    Two points on “Why Palestine/The Holy Land”:

    1. A continuous Jewish presence in the area for millennia.
    2. Related to (1), virtually all of the holy artifacts and sites related to Judaism and the Jewish people are in the Holy Land. The biggest drawback of Northern Australia, Uganda, or Alaska (all places considered for large-scale Jewish settlement) is that there isn’t a strong cultural connection, whereas “the land of Israel is the land of our forefathers”, which is a pretty strong argument.
    10 votes
    1. [3]
      boxer_dogs_dance
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      Brazil was also considered Edit I remember reading this but can't verify. Argentina was written about as a target for jewish colonization by Herzl.

      Brazil was also considered

      Edit I remember reading this but can't verify. Argentina was written about as a target for jewish colonization by Herzl.

      1 vote
      1. [2]
        nukeman
        Link Parent
        I hadn’t hear about Brazil, any details?

        I hadn’t hear about Brazil, any details?

        1. boxer_dogs_dance
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          I've been reading Black's book Enemies and Neighbors. Going back to double check, Herzl wrote about Argentina as an option, but what I remember is reading that an offer was made of land in...

          I've been reading Black's book Enemies and Neighbors. Going back to double check, Herzl wrote about Argentina as an option, but what I remember is reading that an offer was made of land in Brazilian territory, I will reread and see what I find.

          Edit according to Wikipedia the British considered settling Jewish people in British Guiana

          1 vote