krellor's recent activity
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Comment on FizzBuzz as a TypeScript type in ~comp
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Comment on Non-college educated White men used to be ahead in the American economy. Now they’ve fallen behind. in ~finance
krellor Link ParentUnderstood, sometimes it's just a matter of different views and interests. Have a good day!Understood, sometimes it's just a matter of different views and interests. Have a good day!
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Comment on Non-college educated White men used to be ahead in the American economy. Now they’ve fallen behind. in ~finance
krellor Link ParentWhen exchanging long replies it is difficult to pick out what specifically we are responding to. I'm not trying to take words out of context, but to highlight what I'm responding to. There is no...When exchanging long replies it is difficult to pick out what specifically we are responding to. I'm not trying to take words out of context, but to highlight what I'm responding to. There is no bad faith here, or trying to "win." I'm simply expressing my views and points of disagreement.
You're guessing at why they chose the data they did. That's what guessing is. If you write the Upshot or provided these graphs or have spoken with the people that did, then you're not guessing. Let me know if it's the latter.
I regularly work with census data, so I'm not guessing as to what is there, qualitatively at least. Maybe I only feel this way about the article because I've already seen much of the data that they didn't include and the choices make sense to me.
I'm not interested in you pulling data, I can do that too. My issue is with the Times' actions not yours.
It sounds like you are interested in proving a point about the times more than exploring the data and the why of the choices of the article. I personally think it would be fun to do a data dive colab with people on Tildes.
Back to the original point, I disagree that the chart in question was intended to create I'll will towards women. Those were your words.
This feels intended to foment anti-woman (and anti-Asian woman) attitudes in white men.
Much of our back and forth has been over the reasonableness of how the data was contrasted. And if we strip everything else away, I get back to the question I asked earlier of, what is a better cohort to show relative changes in economic standing? And specifically, how does that your into other phenomena around political leaning reported by the times.
You implied I was derailing when you mentioned how talking about women was derailing in this discussion of this article.
I never used the term derailing. I don't have the intent you seem to have assigned to me.
If you aren't interested in discussing that's fine. However I'd note that only one of us has (conditionally) told the other to not bother responding or to question the others intent in responding.
I do apologize if the prior quotes I used misrepresented the point you were making. Sometimes it's hard to pick out the most concise bits.
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Comment on Non-college educated White men used to be ahead in the American economy. Now they’ve fallen behind. in ~finance
krellor Link ParentThis article isn't about trans issues. I'm not going to shift topics. What would be a better cohort to contrast with that shows changes in economic standing over 40 years? I suggested why I...I don't think what I'm describing is impartiality, for trans folks, it's led to a consistent anti-trans narrative where science is not being given weight and the views of trans people's lived experiences are not given weight but the concerned feelings of anti-trans parents are. The moderators of the debate fact checking were not giving opinions.
This article isn't about trans issues. I'm not going to shift topics.
I think contrasting those men with only educated women was bad data presentation.
What would be a better cohort to contrast with that shows changes in economic standing over 40 years? I suggested why I thought this was an important group to contrast with to show this phenomenon. I'm happy to pull data to see if the phenomenon exists with a different group.
Once again, you're guessing at the reasons because they didn't provide any. I'm holding them accountable for their choices, not your guesses. I don't think they need random people speaking for them.
If you don't see how this piece lines up with their other articles and fits in with the overall reporting at NYT right now that is fine. I see how this piece fits in quite well. I'm not guessing at their reasons, I'm looking at it in context of the time and place. If you feel they should be more explicit that is fine.
If you only see phenomena when you omit the majority of the data, I'm not sure it's a real phenomenon.
What phenomenon are you talking about? Do you not believe the data presented that blue collar men have seen a decline in economic standing, or that they have shuffled around with dental hygienists? Or is the idea that women with degrees might have swapped places with the cohort straining your credulity? What specifically?
If you think I've said this article is "harmful to women" then you're not reading my words.
You clearly have said this article feeds a zero sum narrative, that the plot at the beginning will be used to argue that women are taking men's jobs, that it was intended to foment I'll will towards women.
I don't mind discussing my opinion, obviously, but if you ask me to do so by responding, please don't act like I'm derailing the conversation when I do.
I don't believe I said you were derailing the discussion. That said, on this last reply you are by trying to pivot to trans coverage. I'm staying focused on this article.
What I did say is that you have interpreted or spun the article to be about women, when it's not. And that is based on the very first comment about how this article was intended to foment ill will against women.
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Comment on Non-college educated White men used to be ahead in the American economy. Now they’ve fallen behind. in ~finance
krellor Link ParentOk, on a less serious note, I'd be a little surprised if that graph was used because it's a pain to copy short of a low quality screen cap. That said, I agree with about 90% of what your are...Ok, on a less serious note, I'd be a little surprised if that graph was used because it's a pain to copy short of a low quality screen cap.
That said, I agree with about 90% of what your are saying, but strongly disagree with the other 10%. I pay more for the times than all my other media spend together because I value the impartiality you seem to dislike. And while I agree that not all opinions are equal, you address that by reporting the contrasting perspectives from credible sources, giving the appropriate context. You don't insert yourself into the news by stating an opinion.
I'll also make a more fundamental point, which is that it is just as wrong to spin an article about disaffected men as being about women, as is the reverse. Picking out one small slice of the article and saying the article is bad because it fuels sentiment against women is missing the point in an article about the economic decline of a group of men.
Likewise, it seems to make sense to lead with a contrast across gender as it is likely the largest comparative set when you are discussing men. The fact that they break it out further by race I think is intended to alleviate part of your criticism by showing that not all women are doting so well.
With regards for why women without degrees weren't included, well, they haven't had the same shift in political leaning, and it wouldn't show the relative economic reordering the article is focusing on. That's probably the reason they don't just plot men without degrees against all people with degrees. It wouldn't show the phenomenon.
So again, an article about why men are economically disaffected isn't harmful to women just because they contrast the men to the largest comparative set that shows changes in relative economic standing. And the largest cohort to compare with is women with degrees. And programmers, apparently.
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Comment on Non-college educated White men used to be ahead in the American economy. Now they’ve fallen behind. in ~finance
krellor Link ParentI said their data formatting is often not ideal, and in this case, the graphics are too fancy as they animate while you scroll. Your concern sounds like it is the data itself or that it was...As you noted often times such data is shared poorly. This is, in my opinion, one of those times. I don't think they intended that outcome, but I think the outcome is both likely and predictable.
I said their data formatting is often not ideal, and in this case, the graphics are too fancy as they animate while you scroll. Your concern sounds like it is the data itself or that it was presented at all. I disagree with that.
They're talking about how voters feel - that this is a zero sum thing and that women's success comes at the cost of men's success - and make the briefest mention that economists disagree but no real factual details that educate on why that isn't true. As I said this is an issue I've been having with the NYT for a while.
They sliced and diced the data more than just across gender and educational attainment. They looked at it across regions and hundreds of professions. The word "women" only occurs 4 times in a 2200+ word article about why blue-collar men are feeling economically disaffected, and they give one explanatory backdrop while emphasizing those in battleground states. Frankly, I'd be pretty shocked to see this article quoted by anyone in the future as an example of women taking jobs away from men. That's just not what the article is about, and I just don't see that subtext. Additionally, the article spends between 8-15% of its words about the economy not being a zero sum game, depending on how you determine that thread picks up at the end.
I mean that voter feelings shouldn't be treated as equal in wait to expert analysis and articles about the former should reasonably discuss the latter. And this is about any topic or population.
[...]
I want them to focus on actual truth/facts. And yes because it seems necessary, that's regardless of party. The data people in particular should be good at that, but they're doing the same thing the rest of the paper is doing. I believe I'm actually firmly in the target audience, and I don't really know why you'd suggest I'm not as my trying to "prove" that would sound weird and frankly I'm a better judge of myself than you are.
Because what you are asking for seems contradictory to their publicly posted standards and commitment to impartiality. Asking them to report on someone's opinion and then saying that the opinion is wrong or less valid than an expert's opinion isn't impartial. However, reporting the individual's opinion alongside experts' opinions is impartial. And that is what happened here, just in aggregate. The fact that men are leaning more Republican is newsworthy because of its impact on the election. The article digs into the data behind that newsworthy sentiment shift and seeks to explain some of why blue-collar men are leaning Republican, along with expert commentary. This article seems pretty impartial. Calls for them to state an opinion or assert something subjective, counter to their stated goals, does not seem like something their target audience pays them for.
The LA times and Washington Post editorial boards were not the cause of the lack of endorsements. Their owners were. The endorsements had been written in both cases.
Yes, and unlike them, the NYT's had no newsroom interference from their owners.
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Comment on Non-college educated White men used to be ahead in the American economy. Now they’ve fallen behind. in ~finance
krellor Link ParentIn terms of interpreting what the graphs mean, most of the graphics used at the times sort of suck. The exception is a few of the econ heavy newsletters like Krugman's and a few others where they...In terms of interpreting what the graphs mean, most of the graphics used at the times sort of suck. The exception is a few of the econ heavy newsletters like Krugman's and a few others where they are basic plots straight from Excel. The others are too focused on being fancy that they lose readability.
However, that's a separate issue from data being selected to convey an anti-woman narrative.
Allow me to amend for clarity this feels as if the potential outcome of it was so poorly considered, perhaps in an attempt of misguided fairness, that it feels like it would have to be intentional. It's possible it's just really bad.
I don't really know what you are clarifying here. What is it that is so bad in the data presented? Is it just that it is plotting the salaries of men without college degrees against women's salaries with degrees, broken out by race?
I don't understand the misguided fairness you are talking about. The article seems pretty straight forward. The disaffected portion of the electorate that has swung from Democrat to Republican is also the same that has had a decline in earning potential. They then plot data that correlates. In my mind this pairs well with other articles about the widening gap in religiosity and conservatism between young men and women. It's just trend data. That women have done better over time and continued to stay out become Democrat leaning seems to fit this data well.
So this is a really common issue I've been having with the NYT coverage which results in them talking about voter concerns but not actually correcting them, or giving the correct data a line or two and a lot of other "concerns" many more inches.
What do you mean "correcting them?" They are reporting possible reasons for trends. Are you expecting the times to come out and say that one group of people is wrong, like in an editorial board endorsement thing? That's not how the times has ever really operated outside of opinion pieces, which this isn't. However, you can see which way they lean by who they quote, which is economists saying that it doesn't have to be a zero sum game, and you can grow the pie.
I have read the Upshot before, and I'm in that context, not an outsider.
I've watched Fox News before, but I'm definitely not the target audience. If you want the times to state which side is right or wrong on a non-oponion piece, or to take a partisan side, or really much of any side, you aren't the target audience. You might still read it, but you're not who they are writing for.
I'd also keep in mind that while some other major outlets are chickening out on presidential endorsements, the times editorial board hasn't shied away from that, while still reporting critical stories about both parties.
But clearly we just see this issue differently.
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Comment on Non-college educated White men used to be ahead in the American economy. Now they’ve fallen behind. in ~finance
krellor Link ParentSome of these problems of progress will likely force reexaminations of some of our societies closely held tenets around taxes, social safety nets, UBI, etc. There will likely be no one single...Some of these problems of progress will likely force reexaminations of some of our societies closely held tenets around taxes, social safety nets, UBI, etc. There will likely be no one single answer, but a bunch of changes over time.
The autonomous vehicle issue is a particularly fraught one. But recognizing the problem at least allows people in public policy to look for solutions.
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Comment on Non-college educated White men used to be ahead in the American economy. Now they’ve fallen behind. in ~finance
krellor (edited )Link ParentAnd Let's be careful not to conflate intent with whether something can be misunderstood, misused, or would benefit from additional context, especially if taken out of context. However, I don't...This feels intended to foment anti-woman (and anti-Asian woman) attitudes in white men.
And
I see a piece that created a graphic that will contribute to the same problem they identify in the piece. I don't think that was intentional, but I do think the graph/chart feels like it's designed to stoke that resentment by only choosing the slices of the population it wanted to. Never mind that uneducated women are doing worse, never mind that educated white men are doing better... I think this was poorly done and will be misused.
Let's be careful not to conflate intent with whether something can be misunderstood, misused, or would benefit from additional context, especially if taken out of context.
However, I don't find it fair to judge articles without the context of their intended reader anymore than I find it fair to judge the terminology or vocabulary used in feminist or LGBTQ+ spaces without acknowledging the context of those forums.
From the memo that launched the UpShot:
The New York Times (NYTimes.com) today launched its new politics and policy website, The Upshot (NYTimes.com/upshot), the goal of which is to help readers better navigate the news using data, graphics and technology.
To the targeted reader, who is actively engaged in news through the lens of policy and politics, I don't think there is the issue or concern that you raise. That those outside the target audience might misrepresent it is a fair opinion. But so what? Does every article ever, in every forum and every context need to include every caveat and context just in case it is picked up by a wider audience? Of course not.
You might feel different. That's fair.
However, as a regular reader of the Upshot, who has also done my own spelunking in the census data they use, I don't have any concerns and don't see the intent you see.
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Comment on Non-college educated White men used to be ahead in the American economy. Now they’ve fallen behind. in ~finance
krellor Link ParentI don't buy the defeatist argument that nothing can be done to aid the transition. Everything from trade policy to requiring companies that offshore to provide some level of pension to workers who...I don't buy the defeatist argument that nothing can be done to aid the transition. Everything from trade policy to requiring companies that offshore to provide some level of pension to workers who lose jobs, Federal programs to support ship building, silicon, green energy, or national infrastructure like rail and highway projects, and labor policies to make sure those jobs are paid appropriately are all things that have only have been done halfway. And while not every idea will work, or is a good idea once you quantify the second or third order effects, doing nothing and messaging nothing is a terrible choice, for the country and for the Democrats. Hurry up and die is a lose-lose choice, and it's the choice by inaction of the Democrats.
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Comment on Non-college educated White men used to be ahead in the American economy. Now they’ve fallen behind. in ~finance
krellor Link ParentI think the issue, and opportunity, is that the transition matters. I agree that the trend towards knowledge work is good and will continue, that doesn't mean we can't set policy that protects...I think the issue, and opportunity, is that the transition matters. I agree that the trend towards knowledge work is good and will continue, that doesn't mean we can't set policy that protects blue collar labor. There is also the issue that certain types of manufacturing should stay present in the US for national interests if nothing else. So how that transition happens matters. Job training programs are usually not very effective, and it sort of seems that after trying a few things, Washington sort of just have up trying to help people in displaced sectors.
Like you say, Trump doesn't have solutions, but he is connecting with the people who are frustrated. In contrast, the Democrats historically haven't really come out and said what a lot of workers want to hear, which is they are being squeezed and left behind.
Biden has been better than most in his pro labor language. But unfortunately that is only a subset of the blue collar workforce.
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Comment on Non-college educated White men used to be ahead in the American economy. Now they’ve fallen behind. in ~finance
krellor Link ParentI agree, where I have been most frustrated with the Harris campaign has been in their inability to just come out and address the working class workers who have seen their earning power decrease,...I agree, where I have been most frustrated with the Harris campaign has been in their inability to just come out and address the working class workers who have seen their earning power decrease, acknowledge that, and speak to them about how they will be helped.
That's what Trump is doing when he goes out and tells people the economy is terrible. He's connecting with the people who can buy less today than they could 20 years ago in the same job.
For once it would be nice to see the Democrats message that.
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Comment on Non-college educated White men used to be ahead in the American economy. Now they’ve fallen behind. in ~finance
krellor Link ParentBecause those are the subgroups with the largest changes over the period of time. Just like the article doesn't intend to foment anti-programmer sentiment by plotting them as the biggest winners...Because those are the subgroups with the largest changes over the period of time. Just like the article doesn't intend to foment anti-programmer sentiment by plotting them as the biggest winners of the economical shuffle vs machinists, the article isn't targeting women.
Like any analysis, it is looking at a specific set of things in a context. That seems to be explaining what the big economic changes are that are driving the electorates attitudes.
The NYT in general, and the UpShot in particular, are not a channel that I would be particularly suspicious of driving anti women's attitudes. And I don't see that reflected in this piece.
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Comment on Non-college educated White men used to be ahead in the American economy. Now they’ve fallen behind. in ~finance
krellor Link ParentGift link: They Used to Be Ahead in the American Economy. Now They’ve Fallen Behind.. The archive link doesn't display the fancy scrolling graphics quite right and does done funny things to the...Gift link: They Used to Be Ahead in the American Economy. Now They’ve Fallen Behind..
The archive link doesn't display the fancy scrolling graphics quite right and does done funny things to the text placement.
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Comment on Researchers say an AI-powered transcription tool Whisper used in hospitals invents things no one ever said in ~health
krellor (edited )Link ParentThese issues exist in single payer systems as well, and these solutions and errors are propagating there as well. It's not just (emphasis on just) bad hospital systems with bad financial or...These issues exist in single payer systems as well, and these solutions and errors are propagating there as well. It's not just (emphasis on just) bad hospital systems with bad financial or insurance incentives.
Additionally, while ICD-10 codes are used for billing, they are also used in the delivery of care, clinical trial matching, and institutional and fundamental research.
We don't have enough people in the industry globally, and we need tools to automate what is safe and automatable. Emphasis on safe.
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Comment on Researchers say an AI-powered transcription tool Whisper used in hospitals invents things no one ever said in ~health
krellor Link ParentLet me give the hospital perspective: They are absolutely desperate to alleviate case load on doctors and nurses. Many smaller hospitals or health systems can't afford the outsourced...Let me give the hospital perspective: They are absolutely desperate to alleviate case load on doctors and nurses. Many smaller hospitals or health systems can't afford the outsourced transcription, and so the AI tools appeared as a lower cost option to reduce work and fatigue on medical staff. There is high pressure to adopt tools like this, and this was seen as a "safe" human in the loop activity because it isn't leading to direct intervention by an AI decision system. Likewise, AI generated draft emails are also heavily in use, though in that case the doctors edits before sending.
Obviously I agree that we need more guardrails on this stuff. That's a problem area I'm working on. But I feel really bad for the struggling staff being told to wait to adopt until we have the proper guardrails. It isn't helped by the AI companies pushing these systems at conferences and events, out of hearing of their lawyers, as safe for these purposes.
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Comment on Paper: Feminism in Programming Language Design in ~comp
krellor Link ParentI think the timing here explains things. Cobol first was developed in 1959 and that quote is from 1975. Cobol has been continuously updated since it was released, but by 1975 different patterns...I think the timing here explains things. Cobol first was developed in 1959 and that quote is from 1975. Cobol has been continuously updated since it was released, but by 1975 different patterns had emerged that shows the limitations of cobol.
I used to be an IBM systems programmer and I regularly coded in COBOL, C, natural, assembly, and of course JCL to being things together. Cobol definitely felt limiting even compared to those other old languages, except assembler.
(Old man voice) "Back in my day we wrote server side code in assembler to dynamically generate HTML that we passed to CICS region calls with a natural interface to C subsystems. And we liked it that way."
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Comment on Paper: Feminism in Programming Language Design in ~comp
krellor Link ParentI don't have much dog in the hunt on this paper, because I see it more as an exploratory call to action. The premise I certainly accept, that design choices can channel thought. Pulling out one of...I don't have much dog in the hunt on this paper, because I see it more as an exploratory call to action. The premise I certainly accept, that design choices can channel thought. Pulling out one of the oldies:
The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense. - Edsger W. Dijkstra
I think where I am a little unsatisfied is what I see as a lack of preliminary analysis on something more concrete. But I do appreciate a call for more research for what it is.
That said I did get a chuckle at the line about the "mathematicification" of programming, simply because computer science departments and in some cases IT departments started as clusters in math departments.
But it seems obvious to me that design choices could have all sorts of effects, which is why cobol is evil. It's the quantification and the analysis I really want to see.
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Comment on Got a new job as an App Dev Manager in ~life
krellor LinkI'll second someone else's suggestion of manager tools podcast. I would start with the manager tools basics list. The short list is have regular 1-1's with your direct reports, learn how to give...I'll second someone else's suggestion of manager tools podcast. I would start with the manager tools basics list. The short list is have regular 1-1's with your direct reports, learn how to give good feedback, and learn to delegate.
I think a good structure to your management goes a long way to setting you and the team up for success. It's better to make small frequent adjustments than infrequent but dramatic turns. For years I did team meetings with each teams successively Monday morning to quickly lay out the week and chat. Midweek 1-1's, and a optional social hour on Friday for things like Pictionary, IRL or virtual.
I never seemed to struggle with the stuff most of my leadership peers did, like hiring, firing, and promotion, and I think it's because of this structure and the notes and documentation that goes with it. It's real work, but it means when there is a problem or opportunity, you can move quickly rather than start an 18 month clock where you have to start documenting fresh.
Don't be afraid to try new things and don't be afraid to take input. Also, your big job now is helping the team understand the why's of business decisions that impact them, so stay plugged into that stuff so you can explain it.
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Comment on AI will use a lot of energy. That's good for the climate. in ~enviro
krellor Link ParentYeah, there's a lot of speculative claims in the article that gives me big "this is good for Bitcoin" energy. I don't doubt that increased energy demand will mean increased sourcing of all types....Yeah, there's a lot of speculative claims in the article that gives me big "this is good for Bitcoin" energy. I don't doubt that increased energy demand will mean increased sourcing of all types. But I'm not convinced that the proportion of new energy will skew more green than if the spike in demand didn't materialize, which is what is claimed. We were already seeing accelerating adoption of green energy production, and I would want to see the data supporting the claim that spiking demand is a casual effect of further acceleration, not just a few anecdotes.
This is really fun, thanks for sharing. The logic and the implementation of more complex operators with basic elements gives me a sort of deja vu from past projects designing ALU's out of single logic gates, like the NAND gate. It's fun to see the same types of ideas being used in really fun, different ways.