This largely depends on whether you think Woody Allen is guilty or not. Allen’s case is more complex than someone like Bill Cosby or Harvey Weinstein. But, because of the MeToo movement Allen and...
This largely depends on whether you think Woody Allen is guilty or not.
Allen’s case is more complex than someone like Bill Cosby or Harvey Weinstein. But, because of the MeToo movement Allen and these other guys have been made equivalent. Unlike those guys there’s evidence to suggest Allen isn’t guilty, which the recent HBO docuseries ignores since it’s not very good journalism (which makes sense since the filmmakers have been accused of not being very good journalists in their prior project).
Everyone can make their own conclusion once they actually look at the case and what the experts who interviewed both Dylan and Allen had to say. I made my own decision of where I stand on Allen, and that doesn’t impede my support of the MeToo movement or supporting survivors of sexual assault.
I think the crux of the problem is that there's this "all or nothing" aspect to how to handle the prior art of a pariah. Loius C.K.'s misdeeds don't change how relatable or funny his comedy is/was...
I think the crux of the problem is that there's this "all or nothing" aspect to how to handle the prior art of a pariah.
Loius C.K.'s misdeeds don't change how relatable or funny his comedy is/was for me (The turning 40 bit hitting home these days). And his isn't even "major works of art" material.
For me an even bigger problem is Kevin Spacy. So much good film now unwatchable, and certainly any discussion about them would gravitate away from the film itself.
I can't fully separate monstor and art, especially in video, I don't know if anyone fully can. Marilyn Manson was a fantastic human being. Until it turned out he wasn't, and I'll hate him till my death for that.
I don't have any solutions for this, but I'm all ears. I'd love to consume media I loved again without feeling this deep guilt (or judging by others, but I can live with that).
In a strange related turn on separating actor from the artist, Kevin Spacey putting out a bizarre "defense" video for himself while in the character of Frank Underwood probably poisoned the well...
In a strange related turn on separating actor from the artist, Kevin Spacey putting out a bizarre "defense" video for himself while in the character of Frank Underwood probably poisoned the well of that show so completely that it's not something anyone even wants to rewatch or relive any time soon.
Therin lies the rub isn't it. By consuming old material, your're still supporting that actor's brand and possibly even providing royalties. Perhaps forcing the works into the public domain,...
Therin lies the rub isn't it. By consuming old material, your're still supporting that actor's brand and possibly even providing royalties.
Perhaps forcing the works into the public domain, removing that financial support from all involved, would help. Create a strong financial disincentive from hiring abusers.
I do fundementally agree on the premise of art being seperate from the artist. You almost have to take that stance. Because everyone has distasteful skeletons in their closet, especially the...
I do fundementally agree on the premise of art being seperate from the artist.
You almost have to take that stance. Because everyone has distasteful skeletons in their closet, especially the farther back in history you go.
If I feel someone's crimes or moral transgressions cross a line, I will no longer give them financial or social support by being in their audience. Except for one loophole: if they are dead. I...
If I feel someone's crimes or moral transgressions cross a line, I will no longer give them financial or social support by being in their audience. Except for one loophole: if they are dead. I would watch a Wagner opera, and enjoy it while still evaluating its connection to his antisemitism, but until Louis CK is dead I will not enjoy his works. (I know his offenses are "small" in comparison to other people, but I was much more emotionally involved in his work so I felt a bit betrayed when I learned about the sexual harassment)
I can't separate art and artist, but I can allow myself to enjoy their works if I know the monstrous artist in question can in no way benefit from my participation.
It gets even more complicated when the monster in question didn't "author" the work but just contributed to it. For example, Weinstein and all his films he served as a producer on. In those cases it becomes much easier for me to enjoy the stuff they contributed to if the monster was given any justice for their crimes.
The MeToo movement was born out of this perpetuated injustice, as a sort of counterbalance. Perhaps things would not be quite so murky if the justice system worked as intended.
In those cases it becomes much easier for me to enjoy the stuff they contributed to if the monster was given any justice for their crimes.
The MeToo movement was born out of this perpetuated injustice, as a sort of counterbalance. Perhaps things would not be quite so murky if the justice system worked as intended.
There are other works of art where learning much about the artist might be considered a spoiler. Young people should be allowed to enjoy them the first time on their own terms, though maybe you...
There are other works of art where learning much about the artist might be considered a spoiler. Young people should be allowed to enjoy them the first time on their own terms, though maybe you want to give them a vague warning that the artist is problematic and they shouldn’t go around praising them, without going into specifics. I think some of Cosby’s classic comedy routines might be an example of this. (That is, after he drops out of the news again.)
But I think the relationship in Manhattan would be hard to explain away these days even without knowing much about Woody Allen. Maybe it could be used as a warning that some men are creeps.
This largely depends on whether you think Woody Allen is guilty or not.
Allen’s case is more complex than someone like Bill Cosby or Harvey Weinstein. But, because of the MeToo movement Allen and these other guys have been made equivalent. Unlike those guys there’s evidence to suggest Allen isn’t guilty, which the recent HBO docuseries ignores since it’s not very good journalism (which makes sense since the filmmakers have been accused of not being very good journalists in their prior project).
Everyone can make their own conclusion once they actually look at the case and what the experts who interviewed both Dylan and Allen had to say. I made my own decision of where I stand on Allen, and that doesn’t impede my support of the MeToo movement or supporting survivors of sexual assault.
I think the crux of the problem is that there's this "all or nothing" aspect to how to handle the prior art of a pariah.
Loius C.K.'s misdeeds don't change how relatable or funny his comedy is/was for me (The turning 40 bit hitting home these days). And his isn't even "major works of art" material.
For me an even bigger problem is Kevin Spacy. So much good film now unwatchable, and certainly any discussion about them would gravitate away from the film itself.
I can't fully separate monstor and art, especially in video, I don't know if anyone fully can. Marilyn Manson was a fantastic human being. Until it turned out he wasn't, and I'll hate him till my death for that.
I don't have any solutions for this, but I'm all ears. I'd love to consume media I loved again without feeling this deep guilt (or judging by others, but I can live with that).
In a strange related turn on separating actor from the artist, Kevin Spacey putting out a bizarre "defense" video for himself while in the character of Frank Underwood probably poisoned the well of that show so completely that it's not something anyone even wants to rewatch or relive any time soon.
Therin lies the rub isn't it. By consuming old material, your're still supporting that actor's brand and possibly even providing royalties.
Perhaps forcing the works into the public domain, removing that financial support from all involved, would help. Create a strong financial disincentive from hiring abusers.
I do fundementally agree on the premise of art being seperate from the artist.
You almost have to take that stance. Because everyone has distasteful skeletons in their closet, especially the farther back in history you go.
If I feel someone's crimes or moral transgressions cross a line, I will no longer give them financial or social support by being in their audience. Except for one loophole: if they are dead. I would watch a Wagner opera, and enjoy it while still evaluating its connection to his antisemitism, but until Louis CK is dead I will not enjoy his works. (I know his offenses are "small" in comparison to other people, but I was much more emotionally involved in his work so I felt a bit betrayed when I learned about the sexual harassment)
I can't separate art and artist, but I can allow myself to enjoy their works if I know the monstrous artist in question can in no way benefit from my participation.
It gets even more complicated when the monster in question didn't "author" the work but just contributed to it. For example, Weinstein and all his films he served as a producer on. In those cases it becomes much easier for me to enjoy the stuff they contributed to if the monster was given any justice for their crimes.
The MeToo movement was born out of this perpetuated injustice, as a sort of counterbalance. Perhaps things would not be quite so murky if the justice system worked as intended.
Archived link.
There are other works of art where learning much about the artist might be considered a spoiler. Young people should be allowed to enjoy them the first time on their own terms, though maybe you want to give them a vague warning that the artist is problematic and they shouldn’t go around praising them, without going into specifics. I think some of Cosby’s classic comedy routines might be an example of this. (That is, after he drops out of the news again.)
But I think the relationship in Manhattan would be hard to explain away these days even without knowing much about Woody Allen. Maybe it could be used as a warning that some men are creeps.