This unfortunately doesn't surprise me. People who commit hate crimes seem eager to jump on any group that seems like an acceptable target. Of course, the fact that these acts of violence are...
This unfortunately doesn't surprise me. People who commit hate crimes seem eager to jump on any group that seems like an acceptable target. Of course, the fact that these acts of violence are committed without regard for the people involved's actual association with the modern Russian regime or opinions on the war makes it extremely evident that the Ukraine war is more of an excuse than anything.
Also wtf is with this bit:
The Metropolitan Police refused to answer Sky News' FOI request, saying it would cost too much to retrieve the information
Are the British police just... allowed to do that?
The fact that a lot of hate crimes don't even get committed against the target of those people's supposed hate says a lot too. E.g. Sikhs being attacked after 9/11. Any Asian looking people during...
People who commit hate crimes seem eager to jump on any group that seems like an acceptable target.
The fact that a lot of hate crimes don't even get committed against the target of those people's supposed hate says a lot too. E.g. Sikhs being attacked after 9/11. Any Asian looking people during COVID. Etc. Etc.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying if they had gotten their targets right, they would have been justified in any way. They wouldn't. But it just goes to show how utterly mindless the people who commit hate crimes often are. They just want something, anything, anyone to blame for their own problems instead of themselves, and their target is merely a convenient scapegoat.
Oh yeah, I absolutely agree. Obviously hate crimes are abominable regardless of whether they hit their "intended" target or not, but it is telling. Particularly in this case, while in some of the...
Oh yeah, I absolutely agree. Obviously hate crimes are abominable regardless of whether they hit their "intended" target or not, but it is telling. Particularly in this case, while in some of the described incidents it was clear how the perpetrators knew the victim was Russian, in many of them it was unclear how they knew the victim was Russian and not, for instance, Ukrainian. The average Brit probably can't tell the difference without simply asking the person in question, after all. But this just serves to further emphasize that this type of response isn't about supporting Ukraine, but rather inflicting violence on what they see as acceptable targets.
From the Information Commissioner's Office: Cost limits are £450, or £600 for central government. That is interesting, though—I've very rarely seen that come up, albeit in my limited experience.
I'm sad to here that this happens, regardless of where. Just because someone looks Russian, or sounds Russian doesn't mean they are affiliated with Putin's regime. Most Russians outside of Russia...
I'm sad to here that this happens, regardless of where. Just because someone looks Russian, or sounds Russian doesn't mean they are affiliated with Putin's regime. Most Russians outside of Russia either don't talk about Russian politics because of fear, or are overtly critical of Russia.
I live in the Midwest US, and my very Slav sounding name has caused me more than a few problems. Thankfully, no physical altercations. I've been told both sides by different people, and it's always a thorny subject, for others. For me, if I get dragged into a conversation about it, I have only two words, "Slava Ukraini,"
How do these people even know that the person they’re attacking is actually Russian and not Ukrainian (not that it’d be justified either way). Like, I seriously doubt the average Britisher would...
How do these people even know that the person they’re attacking is actually Russian and not Ukrainian (not that it’d be justified either way).
Like, I seriously doubt the average Britisher would be informed enough to be able to distinguish between different Slavs based on accent / looks.
I'm from the US and have Polish ancestry. The number of times people have asked pointed questions out of nowhere like a well out of season "do you celebrate Christmas" (i.e. "are you Jewish?") or...
I'm from the US and have Polish ancestry. The number of times people have asked pointed questions out of nowhere like a well out of season "do you celebrate Christmas" (i.e. "are you Jewish?") or asked if my surname is Russian is far higher than I'd like.
My understanding is people in the UK can be pretty nasty about Poland too, since it's basically treated like how the US does Mexico. Cheap manufacturing outsourcing, blaming crime on immigrants from there, etc. Hell, any Eastern European characters in Hollywood films are more than likely to be involved in organized crime.
As a Canadian who has lived in the UK, I can confirm. The open racism a lot of Brits regularly showed towards Polish people was quite the culture shock for me. It almost felt like stepping into...
My understanding is people in the UK can be pretty nasty about Poland too, since it's basically treated like how the US does Mexico.
As a Canadian who has lived in the UK, I can confirm. The open racism a lot of Brits regularly showed towards Polish people was quite the culture shock for me. It almost felt like stepping into that "they took our jobs!" episode of Southpark. :(
It's a bit of an old news, but I haven't seen it shared or talked about here. Also western outlets don't seem to pay much attention to this topic, as it's hard to find news published about it.
It's a bit of an old news, but I haven't seen it shared or talked about here. Also western outlets don't seem to pay much attention to this topic, as it's hard to find news published about it.
Side note. As a Ukrainian its a bit hard for me to feel condolence. Logically I understand that its a bad thing, because these attacks most probably did not change russians opinions on a war with...
Side note.
As a Ukrainian its a bit hard for me to feel condolence. Logically I understand that its a bad thing, because these attacks most probably did not change russians opinions on a war with Ukraine at all.
Some russians do not support Ukraine invasion, some do, mostly (I believe) they ignorant. They did not chose to be russians, mostly (probably) they did not choose to start a war. Ukrainians also did not chose to be Ukrainians or to be attacked and killed by russia.
Meh. This is pointless comment.
I mean, it's important to remember that these are merely people of a Russian background. They don't even live in Russia. If anything, the fact that they're there meant they went through the pains...
I mean, it's important to remember that these are merely people of a Russian background. They don't even live in Russia. If anything, the fact that they're there meant they went through the pains of immigration to escape from Russian rule. It is both unfair and unproductive to take fault with people for their heritage.
If it makes you more empathetic, there have been Ukrainian immigrants who have been harassed for being Russian - because your average brit does not understand the nuances. Surely that is unfair.
Unfortunately, it will not make me more empatic. Unfortunately not all russians that live abroad are against putin and against war with Ukraine and ready to return Crimea to Ukraine. Look, its...
I mean, it's important to remember that these are merely people of a Russian background. They don't even live in Russia. If anything, the fact that they're there meant they went through the pains of immigration to escape from Russian rule.
Unfortunately, it will not make me more empatic.
Unfortunately not all russians that live abroad are against putin and against war with Ukraine and ready to return Crimea to Ukraine.
Look, its more a question of personal sanity and acceptance: I can't allow myself to think that some invisible and mostly inactive part of russians are good. Who kills my friends, who wants Ukraine to stop being Ukraine and become russia? Its russians. Who invade Ukraine and force Ukrainians to speak only russians lang? Again russian.
Yes, of course, some parts of russians against war. But... thats not enough. This part of russians are invisible and honestly, is there any russians that supports killing russians to stop the war with Ukraine? Currently (and horribly unfortunately for both Ukraine and russia) its the only working way to stop the invasion.
While I understand you are naturally inclined to biased due to circumstances, it seems inane to wish poorly upon Russian expats in other countries just for being Russian. If you moved from Russia...
While I understand you are naturally inclined to biased due to circumstances, it seems inane to wish poorly upon Russian expats in other countries just for being Russian.
If you moved from Russia to the UK 20 years ago, how do you have anything more to do with the Russian invasion of Ukraine than any other Brit on the street? Are you guilty by association of your blood? Where does it stop? Are descendents of Russian immigrants also culpable?
It's one thing if it's at least Russians in Russia, who pay taxes to Putin and who empower the regime with their outputs, but merely people of Russian background?
Sure, not all Russians abroad are against Putin, but the point is that you can't assume that either way based on something immutable like nationality or ethnicity.
I follow your reasoning, but what you're describing is just textbook discrimination. I don't think there's any justification for having this belief, war included.
I follow your reasoning, but what you're describing is just textbook discrimination. I don't think there's any justification for having this belief, war included.
Yeah, I think it's almost unreasonable to expect people facing an invasion not to ever feel this impulse on some level. But I also think that it's very reasonable to expect that you try to fight...
Yeah, I think it's almost unreasonable to expect people facing an invasion not to ever feel this impulse on some level. But I also think that it's very reasonable to expect that you try to fight it back, and certainly that you don't consciously incorporate it into your belief system after you've recognized it as irrational and dangerous. Like, to me it's kinda hard to pass judgment on the feelings that bubble up in someone in these circumstances, but once you've put those feelings into words, and you've looked at those words, if it's not a wake-up call, something has gone deeply wrong. It is -- in a way -- a natural, gut reaction, and it's hard to control those, but that doesn't mean they can serve as a justification.
I really disagree. I cite the following example because it's one that's fleshed out. Rather than something more abstract and philosophical, where I ask a reader to imagine, I can point to a more...
Exemplary
I really disagree.
I cite the following example because it's one that's fleshed out. Rather than something more abstract and philosophical, where I ask a reader to imagine, I can point to a more fully realized depiction of a similar scenario.
In Babylon 5, the Centauri had once occupied and enslaved the Narn. Over a century of resistance, the Narn had finally driven the Centauri off their planet and lifted the occupation. During the series, the Centauri start a new war against the Narn and not only win it, not only conquer and enslave the Narn anew, but do it via a brutal bombardment of the Narn home planet. Using weapons of mass destruction to force the Narn to capitulate and beg to be allowed to surrender simply to stop the killing.
Tens of millions of Narn die, most of them civilians, simply because the Centauri saw themselves as imperial conquerors and had the means with which to take what was the Narn's. Including the Narn themselves.
In this scene, a Centauri character, Vir, encounters the Narn ambassador (G'kar) in an elevator. Vir is an attache to a key Centauri diplomat, and had spent the runup and even the war itself opposed to that war. He spends nearly a minute embarrassed and awkward in the elevator, while G'kar says nothing, does nothing.
Finally Vir turns to G'kar and says "I'm sorry." He tries to explain how it's not his fault, that no one listens to him and he has no power, no means to have changed the course of the war. To have stopped the killing.
The elevator reaches G'kar's destination, and the Narn exits. Only to draw his ceremonial dagger and turn to face Vir. Who shrinks from him. G'kar simply slices his palm, and as the blood drips from his hand, says "Dead, dead, dead, dead, dead." Over and over. And he asks, "How do you apologize to them?"
When Vir says he can't, G'kar says "Then I cannot forgive."
Ironically, J. Michael Straczynski, the writer and creator of Babylon 5, is an American whose family is descended from Polish immigrants who had fled Russia during the Russian Revolution.
Yes, Russia is not using WMDs (yet). Yes, Russia has not slaughtered millions of Ukrainians. However, a quick check appears to show that in excess of thirty thousand Ukrainian troops have died defending their country, along with more than ten thousand Ukrainian civilians (with several times that number injured, some permanently) due to the Russian invasion.
All because Russia decided they wanted what's Ukraine's. Including Ukrainians.
Who can tell any Ukrainian to forgive all that death? Who has the right to expect it? To take some sort of position of moral superiority at the thought of a Ukrainian deciding they can't forgive Russia or Russians?
Note: not a Ukrainian (or anyone else) who decides to become Frank Castle and wage a personal war of violent revenge, who stalks and hunts and assaults any Russian they can. Just someone who decides they're not going to forgive Russia or Russians as a result of Russia's actions.
Morality, indeed civility and civilization itself, is an individual choice. We only have "civilization" or morals because those within them chose to embrace them. When the barbarians are literally through the gates, rampaging as they slaughter you and yours, it is no longer an exercise in moral philosophy.
Dead is dead. And I feel no one has the right to tell anyone else, especially those who have a personal connection and perhaps even personal commitment to those dead, how they "should" react to those dead. How they "should" feel about those dead.
I think it's trivially easy to pass moral judgement on situations one is not personally involved in. When the blood and tears are not yours or those of someone you love, someone you know. Of someone who, save for perhaps fortune and fate, might be crying for you if the war had gone differently and it had been your death they were weighing morally.
I'm going to move pass the idea of applying responsibility to an entire nation state for the nation state's action to get at something which is critically different than what your example is...
I'm going to move pass the idea of applying responsibility to an entire nation state for the nation state's action to get at something which is critically different than what your example is about.
These aren't Russians, in Russia, that the article is talking about. These are just people who are of Russian descent and background. When you say
All because Russia decided they wanted what's Ukraine's.
How exactly are you grouping someone who immigrated to the UK from Russia 20 years ago into "Russia" or "Russian"? What ties them to the Ukraine war more than any random Joe on the street? Or you yourself? Is it that they happen to share genes with some of the people that committed those acts? Because they have a name that is associated with Russia? That they have an Russian accent? Russian looks? What does any of that have to do with the nation state of Russia invading Ukraine?
What could make them "not Russian"? More than not living in the nation state already does?
I can and will expect people to at minimum have the empathic ability to bypass arbitrary groupings when applying group responsibility like "same blood".
In the end, you have the right to hate whomever you want, but everyone else has the right to tell you that you're being unfair and bigoted.
If I were brutally attacked or had family members killed by a black person, would it be right for me to hate other black people and cheer on when they're targeted for hate crimes? I don't believe...
If I were brutally attacked or had family members killed by a black person, would it be right for me to hate other black people and cheer on when they're targeted for hate crimes? I don't believe it would be -- that would be incredibly racist and, imo, morally wrong of me. People of Russian descent in the UK are exactly as connected to the Russians waging war in Ukraine as other black people are to the person who committed crimes against me in that metaphor, and it's still racist and wrong.
Of course, people's feelings often don't follow what's right, and working through how you feel about trauma you've suffered is a personal journey for individuals to take. Ukrainians certainly have the right to feel anger over what's being done to their country and their people. But in public discussion on websites like this, especially when the topic of discussion is hate crimes, we should not be so keen to justify hating anyone for their ethnicity. That's the type of thing that could turn a website like Tildes into an actual racist cesspool if it's not quickly and thoroughly pushed back on.
Heh. Thats a good accusation. In my defense, that my feeling, not my actions. Sure, war is not a justification for any discrimination. And discrimination is not an justification for any...
Heh. Thats a good accusation. In my defense, that my feeling, not my actions. Sure, war is not a justification for any discrimination. And discrimination is not an justification for any discrimination. Also, thats a good way to stop this discussion. Can't talk about thing, then thing stops existing, yes?
I just want to be another voice pushing back here. I guess it's just you saying how you're feeling, but what you're describing is deeply unhealthy and honestly pretty horrifying. Like I guess all...
I just want to be another voice pushing back here. I guess it's just you saying how you're feeling, but what you're describing is deeply unhealthy and honestly pretty horrifying. Like I guess all I can say is to try to work on it. You've already acknowledged that none of the people here are involved in the stuff you're ranting about in the last paragraph. You note that this is just a question of what you can handle, but you do know the reality is that random people of ethnic Russian heritage on the other side of the continent are not responsible for what is happening and do not deserve to be targeted with ethnic violence, whether or not consciously grappling with that fact feels good to you personally. I think we can all understand that you're going through a lot, but you don't have to allow the fact that you're going through a lot to serve as a rationalization for justifying this.
I think the real problem is the way collectivism conflates Russia (the nation-state) with Russians (everyday people of that ethnicity). There are a ton of folks who don't seem to be able to...
Exemplary
I think the real problem is the way collectivism conflates Russia (the nation-state) with Russians (everyday people of that ethnicity).
There are a ton of folks who don't seem to be able to mentally disentangle a people group from the government currently ruling whatever region those people are historically identified with, even though the two are distinct things. And I think (particularly for regimes doing evil shit) it's often in a government's interest to keep that distinction as fuzzy as possible. They lean on things like national pride, patriotism, and cultural and historical narratives to blur the lines between state action and the will of the people. Because it gives the illusion of solidarity and ultimately consent for whatever they're doing at a given moment.
It's vital for all of us to pin the blame for the Ukrainian invasion on Putin, his complicit oligarchs and compliant individuals in the Russian military structure, and the lap-dog propaganda machine willfully spreading disinformation within Russian borders and abroad. And on those regular people who, either because they're brainwashed or because they're just unprincipled bigots, full-throatedly support the aggression.
But everybody else who doesn't fall into those categories, — regardless of where they live, what families they descend from, or what languages they speak — is blameless.
The sooner people understand this concept (and not just in the context of this particular war) the better off we'll all be as a species. And if this isn't too far in the realm of wishful thinking for me to say, the sooner specific guilty individuals can be identified and brought to justice, as they won't be able to hide in the haze of people's cognitive biases anymore.
Exactly. Why should your average person be culpable for what a government does, simply because they claim you as part of their "nation." It's all bullshit meant to control you, to make you think...
Exactly. Why should your average person be culpable for what a government does, simply because they claim you as part of their "nation." It's all bullshit meant to control you, to make you think that a huge group of diverse people all share the same identity. It's accepted as fact now, but even 500 years ago, people would think it was an absurd concept. Nationalism has rotted peoples' brains.
This unfortunately doesn't surprise me. People who commit hate crimes seem eager to jump on any group that seems like an acceptable target. Of course, the fact that these acts of violence are committed without regard for the people involved's actual association with the modern Russian regime or opinions on the war makes it extremely evident that the Ukraine war is more of an excuse than anything.
Also wtf is with this bit:
Are the British police just... allowed to do that?
The fact that a lot of hate crimes don't even get committed against the target of those people's supposed hate says a lot too. E.g. Sikhs being attacked after 9/11. Any Asian looking people during COVID. Etc. Etc.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying if they had gotten their targets right, they would have been justified in any way. They wouldn't. But it just goes to show how utterly mindless the people who commit hate crimes often are. They just want something, anything, anyone to blame for their own problems instead of themselves, and their target is merely a convenient scapegoat.
Oh yeah, I absolutely agree. Obviously hate crimes are abominable regardless of whether they hit their "intended" target or not, but it is telling. Particularly in this case, while in some of the described incidents it was clear how the perpetrators knew the victim was Russian, in many of them it was unclear how they knew the victim was Russian and not, for instance, Ukrainian. The average Brit probably can't tell the difference without simply asking the person in question, after all. But this just serves to further emphasize that this type of response isn't about supporting Ukraine, but rather inflicting violence on what they see as acceptable targets.
From the Information Commissioner's Office:
Cost limits are £450, or £600 for central government. That is interesting, though—I've very rarely seen that come up, albeit in my limited experience.
I'm sad to here that this happens, regardless of where. Just because someone looks Russian, or sounds Russian doesn't mean they are affiliated with Putin's regime. Most Russians outside of Russia either don't talk about Russian politics because of fear, or are overtly critical of Russia.
I live in the Midwest US, and my very Slav sounding name has caused me more than a few problems. Thankfully, no physical altercations. I've been told both sides by different people, and it's always a thorny subject, for others. For me, if I get dragged into a conversation about it, I have only two words, "Slava Ukraini,"
How do these people even know that the person they’re attacking is actually Russian and not Ukrainian (not that it’d be justified either way).
Like, I seriously doubt the average Britisher would be informed enough to be able to distinguish between different Slavs based on accent / looks.
I'm from the US and have Polish ancestry. The number of times people have asked pointed questions out of nowhere like a well out of season "do you celebrate Christmas" (i.e. "are you Jewish?") or asked if my surname is Russian is far higher than I'd like.
My understanding is people in the UK can be pretty nasty about Poland too, since it's basically treated like how the US does Mexico. Cheap manufacturing outsourcing, blaming crime on immigrants from there, etc. Hell, any Eastern European characters in Hollywood films are more than likely to be involved in organized crime.
As a Canadian who has lived in the UK, I can confirm. The open racism a lot of Brits regularly showed towards Polish people was quite the culture shock for me. It almost felt like stepping into that "they took our jobs!" episode of Southpark. :(
It's a bit of an old news, but I haven't seen it shared or talked about here. Also western outlets don't seem to pay much attention to this topic, as it's hard to find news published about it.
Side note.
As a Ukrainian its a bit hard for me to feel condolence. Logically I understand that its a bad thing, because these attacks most probably did not change russians opinions on a war with Ukraine at all.
Some russians do not support Ukraine invasion, some do, mostly (I believe) they ignorant. They did not chose to be russians, mostly (probably) they did not choose to start a war. Ukrainians also did not chose to be Ukrainians or to be attacked and killed by russia.
Meh. This is pointless comment.
I mean, it's important to remember that these are merely people of a Russian background. They don't even live in Russia. If anything, the fact that they're there meant they went through the pains of immigration to escape from Russian rule. It is both unfair and unproductive to take fault with people for their heritage.
If it makes you more empathetic, there have been Ukrainian immigrants who have been harassed for being Russian - because your average brit does not understand the nuances. Surely that is unfair.
Unfortunately, it will not make me more empatic.
Unfortunately not all russians that live abroad are against putin and against war with Ukraine and ready to return Crimea to Ukraine.
Look, its more a question of personal sanity and acceptance: I can't allow myself to think that some invisible and mostly inactive part of russians are good. Who kills my friends, who wants Ukraine to stop being Ukraine and become russia? Its russians. Who invade Ukraine and force Ukrainians to speak only russians lang? Again russian.
Yes, of course, some parts of russians against war. But... thats not enough. This part of russians are invisible and honestly, is there any russians that supports killing russians to stop the war with Ukraine? Currently (and horribly unfortunately for both Ukraine and russia) its the only working way to stop the invasion.
While I understand you are naturally inclined to biased due to circumstances, it seems inane to wish poorly upon Russian expats in other countries just for being Russian.
If you moved from Russia to the UK 20 years ago, how do you have anything more to do with the Russian invasion of Ukraine than any other Brit on the street? Are you guilty by association of your blood? Where does it stop? Are descendents of Russian immigrants also culpable?
It's one thing if it's at least Russians in Russia, who pay taxes to Putin and who empower the regime with their outputs, but merely people of Russian background?
Sure, not all Russians abroad are against Putin, but the point is that you can't assume that either way based on something immutable like nationality or ethnicity.
I follow your reasoning, but what you're describing is just textbook discrimination. I don't think there's any justification for having this belief, war included.
Yeah, I think it's almost unreasonable to expect people facing an invasion not to ever feel this impulse on some level. But I also think that it's very reasonable to expect that you try to fight it back, and certainly that you don't consciously incorporate it into your belief system after you've recognized it as irrational and dangerous. Like, to me it's kinda hard to pass judgment on the feelings that bubble up in someone in these circumstances, but once you've put those feelings into words, and you've looked at those words, if it's not a wake-up call, something has gone deeply wrong. It is -- in a way -- a natural, gut reaction, and it's hard to control those, but that doesn't mean they can serve as a justification.
I really disagree.
I cite the following example because it's one that's fleshed out. Rather than something more abstract and philosophical, where I ask a reader to imagine, I can point to a more fully realized depiction of a similar scenario.
In Babylon 5, the Centauri had once occupied and enslaved the Narn. Over a century of resistance, the Narn had finally driven the Centauri off their planet and lifted the occupation. During the series, the Centauri start a new war against the Narn and not only win it, not only conquer and enslave the Narn anew, but do it via a brutal bombardment of the Narn home planet. Using weapons of mass destruction to force the Narn to capitulate and beg to be allowed to surrender simply to stop the killing.
Tens of millions of Narn die, most of them civilians, simply because the Centauri saw themselves as imperial conquerors and had the means with which to take what was the Narn's. Including the Narn themselves.
In this scene, a Centauri character, Vir, encounters the Narn ambassador (G'kar) in an elevator. Vir is an attache to a key Centauri diplomat, and had spent the runup and even the war itself opposed to that war. He spends nearly a minute embarrassed and awkward in the elevator, while G'kar says nothing, does nothing.
Finally Vir turns to G'kar and says "I'm sorry." He tries to explain how it's not his fault, that no one listens to him and he has no power, no means to have changed the course of the war. To have stopped the killing.
The elevator reaches G'kar's destination, and the Narn exits. Only to draw his ceremonial dagger and turn to face Vir. Who shrinks from him. G'kar simply slices his palm, and as the blood drips from his hand, says "Dead, dead, dead, dead, dead." Over and over. And he asks, "How do you apologize to them?"
When Vir says he can't, G'kar says "Then I cannot forgive."
Ironically, J. Michael Straczynski, the writer and creator of Babylon 5, is an American whose family is descended from Polish immigrants who had fled Russia during the Russian Revolution.
Yes, Russia is not using WMDs (yet). Yes, Russia has not slaughtered millions of Ukrainians. However, a quick check appears to show that in excess of thirty thousand Ukrainian troops have died defending their country, along with more than ten thousand Ukrainian civilians (with several times that number injured, some permanently) due to the Russian invasion.
All because Russia decided they wanted what's Ukraine's. Including Ukrainians.
Who can tell any Ukrainian to forgive all that death? Who has the right to expect it? To take some sort of position of moral superiority at the thought of a Ukrainian deciding they can't forgive Russia or Russians?
Note: not a Ukrainian (or anyone else) who decides to become Frank Castle and wage a personal war of violent revenge, who stalks and hunts and assaults any Russian they can. Just someone who decides they're not going to forgive Russia or Russians as a result of Russia's actions.
Morality, indeed civility and civilization itself, is an individual choice. We only have "civilization" or morals because those within them chose to embrace them. When the barbarians are literally through the gates, rampaging as they slaughter you and yours, it is no longer an exercise in moral philosophy.
Dead is dead. And I feel no one has the right to tell anyone else, especially those who have a personal connection and perhaps even personal commitment to those dead, how they "should" react to those dead. How they "should" feel about those dead.
I think it's trivially easy to pass moral judgement on situations one is not personally involved in. When the blood and tears are not yours or those of someone you love, someone you know. Of someone who, save for perhaps fortune and fate, might be crying for you if the war had gone differently and it had been your death they were weighing morally.
I'm going to move pass the idea of applying responsibility to an entire nation state for the nation state's action to get at something which is critically different than what your example is about.
These aren't Russians, in Russia, that the article is talking about. These are just people who are of Russian descent and background. When you say
How exactly are you grouping someone who immigrated to the UK from Russia 20 years ago into "Russia" or "Russian"? What ties them to the Ukraine war more than any random Joe on the street? Or you yourself? Is it that they happen to share genes with some of the people that committed those acts? Because they have a name that is associated with Russia? That they have an Russian accent? Russian looks? What does any of that have to do with the nation state of Russia invading Ukraine?
What could make them "not Russian"? More than not living in the nation state already does?
I can and will expect people to at minimum have the empathic ability to bypass arbitrary groupings when applying group responsibility like "same blood".
In the end, you have the right to hate whomever you want, but everyone else has the right to tell you that you're being unfair and bigoted.
If I were brutally attacked or had family members killed by a black person, would it be right for me to hate other black people and cheer on when they're targeted for hate crimes? I don't believe it would be -- that would be incredibly racist and, imo, morally wrong of me. People of Russian descent in the UK are exactly as connected to the Russians waging war in Ukraine as other black people are to the person who committed crimes against me in that metaphor, and it's still racist and wrong.
Of course, people's feelings often don't follow what's right, and working through how you feel about trauma you've suffered is a personal journey for individuals to take. Ukrainians certainly have the right to feel anger over what's being done to their country and their people. But in public discussion on websites like this, especially when the topic of discussion is hate crimes, we should not be so keen to justify hating anyone for their ethnicity. That's the type of thing that could turn a website like Tildes into an actual racist cesspool if it's not quickly and thoroughly pushed back on.
Heh. Thats a good accusation. In my defense, that my feeling, not my actions. Sure, war is not a justification for any discrimination. And discrimination is not an justification for any discrimination. Also, thats a good way to stop this discussion. Can't talk about thing, then thing stops existing, yes?
I just want to be another voice pushing back here. I guess it's just you saying how you're feeling, but what you're describing is deeply unhealthy and honestly pretty horrifying. Like I guess all I can say is to try to work on it. You've already acknowledged that none of the people here are involved in the stuff you're ranting about in the last paragraph. You note that this is just a question of what you can handle, but you do know the reality is that random people of ethnic Russian heritage on the other side of the continent are not responsible for what is happening and do not deserve to be targeted with ethnic violence, whether or not consciously grappling with that fact feels good to you personally. I think we can all understand that you're going through a lot, but you don't have to allow the fact that you're going through a lot to serve as a rationalization for justifying this.
I think the real problem is the way collectivism conflates Russia (the nation-state) with Russians (everyday people of that ethnicity).
There are a ton of folks who don't seem to be able to mentally disentangle a people group from the government currently ruling whatever region those people are historically identified with, even though the two are distinct things. And I think (particularly for regimes doing evil shit) it's often in a government's interest to keep that distinction as fuzzy as possible. They lean on things like national pride, patriotism, and cultural and historical narratives to blur the lines between state action and the will of the people. Because it gives the illusion of solidarity and ultimately consent for whatever they're doing at a given moment.
It's vital for all of us to pin the blame for the Ukrainian invasion on Putin, his complicit oligarchs and compliant individuals in the Russian military structure, and the lap-dog propaganda machine willfully spreading disinformation within Russian borders and abroad. And on those regular people who, either because they're brainwashed or because they're just unprincipled bigots, full-throatedly support the aggression.
But everybody else who doesn't fall into those categories, — regardless of where they live, what families they descend from, or what languages they speak — is blameless.
The sooner people understand this concept (and not just in the context of this particular war) the better off we'll all be as a species. And if this isn't too far in the realm of wishful thinking for me to say, the sooner specific guilty individuals can be identified and brought to justice, as they won't be able to hide in the haze of people's cognitive biases anymore.
Exactly. Why should your average person be culpable for what a government does, simply because they claim you as part of their "nation." It's all bullshit meant to control you, to make you think that a huge group of diverse people all share the same identity. It's accepted as fact now, but even 500 years ago, people would think it was an absurd concept. Nationalism has rotted peoples' brains.