European Commissioner for Transport Violeta Bulc on Friday announced that the EU will stop the twice-yearly changing of clocks across the continent in October 2019.
The practice, which was used as a means to conserve energy during the World Wars as well as the oil crises of the 1970s, became law across the bloc in 1996.
All EU countries are required to move forward by an hour on the last Sunday of March and back by an hour on the final Sunday in October.
Bulc said EU member states would have until April 2019 to decide whether they would permanently remain on summer or winter time.
It would be more logical to use standard time, not summer one, because it's astronomically more correct: daytime is better centered around noon (12:00). But I can see objections: lifestyles and...
It would be more logical to use standard time, not summer one, because it's astronomically more correct: daytime is better centered around noon (12:00).
But I can see objections: lifestyles and jobs are shifted forward, like, 9 to 5 has the middle at 1 PM which is the middle of daytime in summer time. And people are awake from 7 AM til midnight which is even more shifted towards evening. Why did time awake move towards evening, not morning, or didn't remain centered around noon?
I don't know which one is which one from those, but I can attest that the best one is the one where you wake up to sunlight year round. In Turkey a couple years ago we fixed ourselves to UTC+3...
I don't know which one is which one from those, but I can attest that the best one is the one where you wake up to sunlight year round. In Turkey a couple years ago we fixed ourselves to UTC+3 (normally we're +2), and woke up to at least an hour-long darkness at 6am, and that messed with everybody's life. After many months of stubbornness, I guess the govt will now change this, hopefully.
I meant it was dark until half 7. Most schools start lessons at 8am, most businesses workdays start around 7:30--9am. Add to that the fact that most people commute around at least an hour in the...
I meant it was dark until half 7. Most schools start lessons at 8am, most businesses workdays start around 7:30--9am. Add to that the fact that most people commute around at least an hour in the morning (k12 students invluded), it caused many problems for most people in the country. Everybody had sleep deprivation problems because these people weren't used to waking up and commuting in pitch dark. Kids had that plus many were afraid of the dark. Traffic was hist by this too, given the entire country was basically sleepwalking. I had lessons at 8am in 2016--2017 academic year; on the days with longest nights we could watch the dawn break as the lecturer came to the classroom.
It was like living in a Saramago novel for two winters. I know it sounds absurd. It was absurd. We should have picked UTC+2. Its absurd even on the maps, the +3 timezone is like a straight line but then Turkey juts to the left of that line like a... tail, let's say. Glad this is not gonna repeat this winter. I read that they gave up on it, hopefully that is true.
Because I need a few hours of the darkness to fall asleep. It's still light out past 9PM in summer here. Yet I still have to wake up early to start the day on a schedule that is made by early...
Because I need a few hours of the darkness to fall asleep. It's still light out past 9PM in summer here. Yet I still have to wake up early to start the day on a schedule that is made by early risers even if it deprives me of sleep.
Where is it "astronomically correct" though? Sunset in the CET timezone differs by 2 hours between its most eastern and western parts. You will get a sweet spot probably somewhere in the middle,...
It would be more logical to use standard time, not summer one, because it's astronomically more correct: daytime is better centered around noon (12:00).
Where is it "astronomically correct" though? Sunset in the CET timezone differs by 2 hours between its most eastern and western parts. You will get a sweet spot probably somewhere in the middle, but for the majority of people in the timezone noon will still be shifted.
Good for them! Shifting clocks back and forth every year is bloody annoying. I've also read articles which say that heart attacks peak on the Monday morning following these clock shifts, which...
Good for them! Shifting clocks back and forth every year is bloody annoying. I've also read articles which say that heart attacks peak on the Monday morning following these clock shifts, which means daylight savings has direct impacts on public health.
I've often advocated that we should stay on permanent summer time. If we legitimately want to enjoy sunshine in the evenings after school and work, why do we put the clocks back during winter when the sunlight hours are at their lowest, and we want to get the most use out of our meagre sunshine? That's when we need the clocks to go forward an hour, to give us that tiny little bit of extra sunlight in the evenings - not summer, when it naturally stays light till very late. Put the clocks forward one last time, and leave them there!
Please No. I get terrible sleep during the summer on DST. Just let us stay on standard forever. My biological clock causes me to be a late riser and the light until after 9PM ruins my health and...
I've often advocated that we should stay on permanent summer time.
Please No. I get terrible sleep during the summer on DST. Just let us stay on standard forever. My biological clock causes me to be a late riser and the light until after 9PM ruins my health and work productivity.
We have this thing called the electric light that people can use to continue to do activities whenever. I can't shut the sun off.
We could select either one and start the workday at 10. That would fix the problems and be massively healthier for society. Nobody needs DST, early risers just prefer it. There is no scientific...
We could select either one and start the workday at 10. That would fix the problems and be massively healthier for society. Nobody needs DST, early risers just prefer it. There is no scientific research that shows benefits to waking up earlier and starting the workday earlier. There is plenty of evidence for the opposite though.
But who am I kidding, we've known that early start times are the bane of teenagers' school existence and achievement for a decade or three-ish now and early risers have fought tooth and nail against the scholastic needs of children for their own convenience.
Sorry if I sound hostile. But there are a bunch of people wanting to vote for permanent DST for their own convenience which will make my life hell.
Wait isnt permanent winter time better for early risers? Because the sun goes up even earlier? I prefer permanent daylight savings time because then the sun doesn't go up at 4 am in the summer
Wait isnt permanent winter time better for early risers? Because the sun goes up even earlier? I prefer permanent daylight savings time because then the sun doesn't go up at 4 am in the summer
The sun coming up doesn't influence sleep as much as the sun going down. Sleep onset is the major lever here. It's also why teenagers have problems with schooling, their sleep onset is later in...
The sun coming up doesn't influence sleep as much as the sun going down. Sleep onset is the major lever here. It's also why teenagers have problems with schooling, their sleep onset is later in the diurnal light cycle.
Standard time (winter) has everyone going to bed later and rising later relative to DST. This helps late risers.
If you want to do what's best for society, any way you slice it, either permanent standard time or starting the day later, the sun will end up rising very early during the summer. Or we could continue to screw late risers like me.
We here in Russia stopped back in 2011, thankfully. One of the few good things that came out of Medvedev's presidency that were not rolled back by Putin. They kinda screwed up the first time...
We here in Russia stopped back in 2011, thankfully. One of the few good things that came out of Medvedev's presidency that were not rolled back by Putin. They kinda screwed up the first time though, choosing to keep the DST time. They fixed that in 2014, finally making Moscow UTC+3 with no DST.
One silly nuisance less, really. That night where you get to sleep one hour less just because was painful. Besides, I've never understood the benefits of DST. On the contrary, the fact that every...
One silly nuisance less, really. That night where you get to sleep one hour less just because was painful. Besides, I've never understood the benefits of DST. On the contrary, the fact that every year there is one hour that repeats twice and one hour that doesn't exist at all always felt strange. "Believe it or not, time's arrow neither stands still nor reverses. It merely marches forward."
I think that each nations will be able to decide whether or not apply this change. Keep in mind that in the EU there are more northern countries than southern ones. In Italy for example summer...
I think that each nations will be able to decide whether or not apply this change.
Keep in mind that in the EU there are more northern countries than southern ones.
In Italy for example summer time saves more than 500 millions kWh each year. This new measure that the EU wants to make is asked by northern countries that doesn't have the same hours of light southerns have.
You want southern countries (which right now are already struggling with debt and its inhabitans are struggling to arrive at the end of the month) and its inhabitans to spend more money on energy? That's only going to create more problems in the parliament in the future.
Keep people fed and they won't be angry. Make them pay something they didn't need to spend and they'll get angry.
On the other hand having countries decide on their own is going to make things very inconsistent. As a programmer DST is frequently causing problems that we have to work around, so I'm all for its...
On the other hand having countries decide on their own is going to make things very inconsistent. As a programmer DST is frequently causing problems that we have to work around, so I'm all for its annihilation, but having neighboring countries with one hour differences patchwork throughout the EU will be almost as painful as DST. At least from a programming perspective.
So this is likely to turn a situation from mildly annoying for a few days twice a year to super annoying all the time. States decide for themselves which time to pick? You're now going to see a...
So this is likely to turn a situation from mildly annoying for a few days twice a year to super annoying all the time. States decide for themselves which time to pick? You're now going to see a time change based on country border, with no correlation to actual timezone. Copenhagen to Hamburg should not involve a time change, but now it potentially could.
I think you are misunderstanding the situation. They want member states to vote one what time they want to stay in (winter or summer) and then the EU will make whatever the majority wants the time...
I think you are misunderstanding the situation. They want member states to vote one what time they want to stay in (winter or summer) and then the EU will make whatever the majority wants the time they keep.
So if every state in the EU wants winter except Spain and France, they don't get to just use summer time, they have to go with what the majority has decided on.
I believe @vakieh has understood the situation correctly. The article even says that "The plan also raises the prospect of neighboring countries ending up an hour apart." All the EU is doing is...
I believe @vakieh has understood the situation correctly. The article even says that "The plan also raises the prospect of neighboring countries ending up an hour apart."
All the EU is doing is stopping member countries from moving the clocks twice a year. However, they're leaving it up to each country to decide where they want to stop the clock: on summer time (they shift the clock forward one last time in April 2019, then leave it there) or on winter time (they shift the clock backward one last time in October 2019, then leave it there).
There's nothing in that article to suggest that all countries have to stop on the same time zone.
Yes, I know the exact line where they say that and from how I am perceiving it, it means the opposite of what you guys are infuring. As in the decision will be a coordinated one among member...
Yes, I know the exact line where they say that and from how I am perceiving it, it means the opposite of what you guys are infuring.
She also noted the need to find consensus among the member states in order to avoid confusing time jumps.
The plan also raises the prospect of neighboring countries ending up an hour apart.
"In order to maintain a harmonised approach we are encouraging consultations at national levels to ensure a coordinated approach of all member states,"
As in the decision will be a coordinated one among member states, they will come to a consensus so that they are all in the same time.
I interpret that as a desire for member states to aim for some level of coordination, rather than a requirement that they all be consistent. In other words, the EU isn't going to force all members...
I interpret that as a desire for member states to aim for some level of coordination, rather than a requirement that they all be consistent. In other words, the EU isn't going to force all members to have the same timezone, but they hope that they'll get there voluntarily.
I did some research and found this article which makes it clearer:
[European commissioner Violeta Bulc] told reporters the Commission has proposed to end seasonal clock changes in Europe by October 2019, giving member states the freedom to decide whether they want to permanently apply summer or winter time.
It is believed most southern European countries will opt for round the year summer time, while the majority of northern member states will choose winter time.
She said that while efforts will be made to ensure there is “coordinated action” between neighbouring member states it was still possible that, for example, the Netherlands could opt for summer time while its neighbour, Belgium, could choose winter time to apply after next October.
Why not? It works okay here in Australia. During Winter, we have three time zones across the country. In Summer, when most states and territories put their clocks forward, but some don't, we have...
Why not? It works okay here in Australia. During Winter, we have three time zones across the country. In Summer, when most states and territories put their clocks forward, but some don't, we have five time zones across the country. We seem to muddle through somehow. :)
Sure, if it ends up somewhat organized. But it would be annoying if you were travelling east to west and the country you start in and end in are both in the same timezone but the nation in the...
Sure, if it ends up somewhat organized. But it would be annoying if you were travelling east to west and the country you start in and end in are both in the same timezone but the nation in the middle is not. Western Europe (for the most part) has always been in the same timezone, so its never been something they have had to deal with in the past.
Good, despite this line in the article:
Studies have actually shown a correlation with the DST change and increased traffic fatalities.
Doesn't make the line incorrect. The sentence 'Anti-vaxxers have long argued vaccines cause autism.' is objectively true.
An infuriating, yet correct, example.
It would be more logical to use standard time, not summer one, because it's astronomically more correct: daytime is better centered around noon (12:00).
But I can see objections: lifestyles and jobs are shifted forward, like, 9 to 5 has the middle at 1 PM which is the middle of daytime in summer time. And people are awake from 7 AM til midnight which is even more shifted towards evening. Why did time awake move towards evening, not morning, or didn't remain centered around noon?
I don't know which one is which one from those, but I can attest that the best one is the one where you wake up to sunlight year round. In Turkey a couple years ago we fixed ourselves to UTC+3 (normally we're +2), and woke up to at least an hour-long darkness at 6am, and that messed with everybody's life. After many months of stubbornness, I guess the govt will now change this, hopefully.
I'm surprised it being dark at 6am was such an issue, that seems really early for most people.
I meant it was dark until half 7. Most schools start lessons at 8am, most businesses workdays start around 7:30--9am. Add to that the fact that most people commute around at least an hour in the morning (k12 students invluded), it caused many problems for most people in the country. Everybody had sleep deprivation problems because these people weren't used to waking up and commuting in pitch dark. Kids had that plus many were afraid of the dark. Traffic was hist by this too, given the entire country was basically sleepwalking. I had lessons at 8am in 2016--2017 academic year; on the days with longest nights we could watch the dawn break as the lecturer came to the classroom.
It was like living in a Saramago novel for two winters. I know it sounds absurd. It was absurd. We should have picked UTC+2. Its absurd even on the maps, the +3 timezone is like a straight line but then Turkey juts to the left of that line like a... tail, let's say. Glad this is not gonna repeat this winter. I read that they gave up on it, hopefully that is true.
Because I need a few hours of the darkness to fall asleep. It's still light out past 9PM in summer here. Yet I still have to wake up early to start the day on a schedule that is made by early risers even if it deprives me of sleep.
DST is torture.
Where is it "astronomically correct" though? Sunset in the CET timezone differs by 2 hours between its most eastern and western parts. You will get a sweet spot probably somewhere in the middle, but for the majority of people in the timezone noon will still be shifted.
Good for them! Shifting clocks back and forth every year is bloody annoying. I've also read articles which say that heart attacks peak on the Monday morning following these clock shifts, which means daylight savings has direct impacts on public health.
I've often advocated that we should stay on permanent summer time. If we legitimately want to enjoy sunshine in the evenings after school and work, why do we put the clocks back during winter when the sunlight hours are at their lowest, and we want to get the most use out of our meagre sunshine? That's when we need the clocks to go forward an hour, to give us that tiny little bit of extra sunlight in the evenings - not summer, when it naturally stays light till very late. Put the clocks forward one last time, and leave them there!
Please No. I get terrible sleep during the summer on DST. Just let us stay on standard forever. My biological clock causes me to be a late riser and the light until after 9PM ruins my health and work productivity.
We have this thing called the electric light that people can use to continue to do activities whenever. I can't shut the sun off.
I wonder if there's a solution to fit everyone's needs? Maybe move it back in winter and forward in summer?
We could select either one and start the workday at 10. That would fix the problems and be massively healthier for society. Nobody needs DST, early risers just prefer it. There is no scientific research that shows benefits to waking up earlier and starting the workday earlier. There is plenty of evidence for the opposite though.
But who am I kidding, we've known that early start times are the bane of teenagers' school existence and achievement for a decade or three-ish now and early risers have fought tooth and nail against the scholastic needs of children for their own convenience.
Sorry if I sound hostile. But there are a bunch of people wanting to vote for permanent DST for their own convenience which will make my life hell.
Wait isnt permanent winter time better for early risers? Because the sun goes up even earlier? I prefer permanent daylight savings time because then the sun doesn't go up at 4 am in the summer
The sun coming up doesn't influence sleep as much as the sun going down. Sleep onset is the major lever here. It's also why teenagers have problems with schooling, their sleep onset is later in the diurnal light cycle.
Standard time (winter) has everyone going to bed later and rising later relative to DST. This helps late risers.
If you want to do what's best for society, any way you slice it, either permanent standard time or starting the day later, the sun will end up rising very early during the summer. Or we could continue to screw late risers like me.
We here in Russia stopped back in 2011, thankfully. One of the few good things that came out of Medvedev's presidency that were not rolled back by Putin. They kinda screwed up the first time though, choosing to keep the DST time. They fixed that in 2014, finally making Moscow UTC+3 with no DST.
How did that make a difference
One silly nuisance less, really. That night where you get to sleep one hour less just because was painful. Besides, I've never understood the benefits of DST. On the contrary, the fact that every year there is one hour that repeats twice and one hour that doesn't exist at all always felt strange. "Believe it or not, time's arrow neither stands still nor reverses. It merely marches forward."
Season 5 is out, but I don't have a Wifi connection. :(
Honestly this really need to be decided on a per country basis depending on their latitude . It's very different if your in Spain than up in Scotland.
I think that each nations will be able to decide whether or not apply this change.
Keep in mind that in the EU there are more northern countries than southern ones.
In Italy for example summer time saves more than 500 millions kWh each year. This new measure that the EU wants to make is asked by northern countries that doesn't have the same hours of light southerns have.
You want southern countries (which right now are already struggling with debt and its inhabitans are struggling to arrive at the end of the month) and its inhabitans to spend more money on energy? That's only going to create more problems in the parliament in the future.
Keep people fed and they won't be angry. Make them pay something they didn't need to spend and they'll get angry.
Yeah wow good thing it's optional.
On the other hand having countries decide on their own is going to make things very inconsistent. As a programmer DST is frequently causing problems that we have to work around, so I'm all for its annihilation, but having neighboring countries with one hour differences patchwork throughout the EU will be almost as painful as DST. At least from a programming perspective.
So this is likely to turn a situation from mildly annoying for a few days twice a year to super annoying all the time. States decide for themselves which time to pick? You're now going to see a time change based on country border, with no correlation to actual timezone. Copenhagen to Hamburg should not involve a time change, but now it potentially could.
On, or off, consistently.
I think you are misunderstanding the situation. They want member states to vote one what time they want to stay in (winter or summer) and then the EU will make whatever the majority wants the time they keep.
So if every state in the EU wants winter except Spain and France, they don't get to just use summer time, they have to go with what the majority has decided on.
I believe @vakieh has understood the situation correctly. The article even says that "The plan also raises the prospect of neighboring countries ending up an hour apart."
All the EU is doing is stopping member countries from moving the clocks twice a year. However, they're leaving it up to each country to decide where they want to stop the clock: on summer time (they shift the clock forward one last time in April 2019, then leave it there) or on winter time (they shift the clock backward one last time in October 2019, then leave it there).
There's nothing in that article to suggest that all countries have to stop on the same time zone.
Yes, I know the exact line where they say that and from how I am perceiving it, it means the opposite of what you guys are infuring.
As in the decision will be a coordinated one among member states, they will come to a consensus so that they are all in the same time.
I interpret that as a desire for member states to aim for some level of coordination, rather than a requirement that they all be consistent. In other words, the EU isn't going to force all members to have the same timezone, but they hope that they'll get there voluntarily.
I did some research and found this article which makes it clearer:
Ah, I stand corrected.
Wow, that is so not going to end well.
Why not? It works okay here in Australia. During Winter, we have three time zones across the country. In Summer, when most states and territories put their clocks forward, but some don't, we have five time zones across the country. We seem to muddle through somehow. :)
Sure, if it ends up somewhat organized. But it would be annoying if you were travelling east to west and the country you start in and end in are both in the same timezone but the nation in the middle is not. Western Europe (for the most part) has always been in the same timezone, so its never been something they have had to deal with in the past.