Assuming the reporting about the social credit system is accurate, imagine my surprise when it turns out that I agree with Mike Pence about something. Yeah, that sounds quite oppressive and...
Assuming the reporting about the social credit system is accurate, imagine my surprise when it turns out that I agree with Mike Pence about something.
US vice-president Mike Pence last year denounced it as “an Orwellian system premised on controlling virtually every facet of human life”.
Yeah, that sounds quite oppressive and inhumane, and I hope the Chinese leadership realizes the error of their ways.
You're right, I don't see why they would, either. I somewhat fear that this sort of thing is terribly inevitable elsewhere, as technology makes it so easy.
You're right, I don't see why they would, either. I somewhat fear that this sort of thing is terribly inevitable elsewhere, as technology makes it so easy.
The more insecure people feel (not are), the more they long for a strong leader. Why do you think right-wing parties are exploiting immigration as much as they can as a political platform?...
The more insecure people feel (not are), the more they long for a strong leader. Why do you think right-wing parties are exploiting immigration as much as they can as a political platform?
Besides, in China the focus lies more on the collective instead of the individual. Most of the people there are pretty happy with the regime.
That's my fault. I was making a bit of a joke. Nineteen Eighty-Four is the specific novel by George Orwell people are referencing when they say something is Orwellian, so saying that it is...
That's my fault. I was making a bit of a joke. Nineteen Eighty-Four is the specific novel by George Orwell people are referencing when they say something is Orwellian, so saying that it is Orwellian is basically just a statement of fact, and being a well written novel, it gets praised a lot.
Where is the Independent getting these figures? I don't see a source listed. Ah now I see they reference the Associated Press but don't link to the original article...
Exemplary
Where is the Independent getting these figures? I don't see a source listed.
I'm interested in the similarities between the Chinese credit system and the American credit system. They don't seem very different. I'd argue that the American system does everything the Chinese...
I'm interested in the similarities between the Chinese credit system and the American credit system. They don't seem very different. I'd argue that the American system does everything the Chinese system does, just in different ways. For example, in America, they'll impound your car if you don't pay parking tickets. Have bad financial credit in America? Then you'll need to pay for plane tickets up front. Doesn't that produce the same result as the Chinese system? Unless you pay for everything in cash and don't use a cell phone, you're being tracked by someone in America. I've also heard that it's difficult to get a good job in America without an online presence.
I don't really see why Americans get upset about the Orwellian Chinese system when they already seem to live in one.
One is a purely financial risk-management system, the other is a method to engineer speech and actions. Both have their problems, but I strongly believe that the differences outweigh the...
One is a purely financial risk-management system, the other is a method to engineer speech and actions. Both have their problems, but I strongly believe that the differences outweigh the similarities, and that the latter is more detrimental to a person's overall rights and freedoms.
I'd agree that the American system is based entirely on financial risk. However, the system's real world effects on its citizens produce the same result as the Chinese system. I think the Chinese...
I'd agree that the American system is based entirely on financial risk. However, the system's real world effects on its citizens produce the same result as the Chinese system. I think the Chinese system is more overtly detrimental to a person's overall rights and freedoms, while the American system produces the same result, only in decentralized way. The American government isn't the one directly pushing you around, it's the entire economic system (which is maintained by the government).
I would argue that any large state, if it wants to persist, needs a social control system. It must only decide on the mechanism. To me, the American system appears to make heavy use of carrots and goes light on sticks, while the Chinese system may be the reverse. Heavier on the sticks, lighter on the carrots. Ultimately the effect is the same. Perhaps the Chinese system is better suited to control a massive population, and as the American population grows its credit system may begin morphing into the Chinese system. It may already be happening. For example, most Americans are aware that they're being monitored in one way or another. How does that change their behavior?
I posted this quote in a previous article about the social credit system, from this article. I definitely don't think that the systems are equivalent, but (like you) I do think some of the...
I posted this quote in a previous article about the social credit system, from this article. I definitely don't think that the systems are equivalent, but (like you) I do think some of the parallels are interesting:
In the classroom, one of the ways I suggest students think about money is as a kind of social scorecard. You did something good — made something somebody wanted, let somebody else use something you own, went to work and did everything the boss told you? Good for you, you get a cookie. Or more precisely, you get a credit, in both senses, in the personal record kept for you at a bank. Now you want something for yourself? OK, but that is going to be subtracted from the running total of how much you’ve done for the rest for us.
People get very excited about China’s social credit system, a sort of generalization of the “permanent record” we use to intimidate schoolchildren. And ok, it does sound kind of dystopian. If your rating is too low, you aren’t allowed to fly on a plane. Think about that — a number assigned to every person, adjusted based on somebody’s judgement of your pro-social or anti-social behavior. If your number is too low, you can’t get on a plane. If it’s really low, you can’t even get on a bus. Could you imagine a system like that in the US?
Except, of course, that we have exactly this system already. The number is called a bank account. The difference is simply that we have so naturalized the system that “how much money you have” seems like simply a fact about you, rather than a judgement imposed by society.
You made some interesting points but this last sentence kind of ruined it for me. While their might be similarities between the US and Chinese systems the brazenness of the Chinese government is...
I don't really see why Americans get upset about the Orwellian Chinese system when they already seem to live in one
You made some interesting points but this last sentence kind of ruined it for me. While their might be similarities between the US and Chinese systems the brazenness of the Chinese government is what's really scary here. It's not even open to debate it's already here. While the US system overall can be seen as similar if you put it all together it's really nothing compared to this shitshow.
Sorry if that was a bit hyperbolic. I still think the effects the US system has on its citizens is comparable to those of the Chinese system. Like another commenter said, it's how the system was...
Sorry if that was a bit hyperbolic. I still think the effects the US system has on its citizens is comparable to those of the Chinese system. Like another commenter said, it's how the system was implemented that bothers people. Does the method matter if the result is the same?
This will be controversial but hear me out: Americans are agitated by the Chinese system because it starts to poke at the myth that Americans are a free people. They're not. If an American wants to be free then they live without comforts. They're only as free as their massive, decentralized economic system and the government allows them to be. The Chinese people are also not free, except the government directly determines what freedoms they have, and to a lesser extent their economic system.
You know after thinking about it and taking a step back I think I'm more inclined to agree with you here. While I think it's objectively worse in China though apparent, the sneakiness of the...
You know after thinking about it and taking a step back I think I'm more inclined to agree with you here. While I think it's objectively worse in China though apparent, the sneakiness of the implementation in the Western world seems almost as bad when you think about it. I think we like the classic bad guy like the Chinese government where it's obvious that they want to control us and it's easy to point out. If we take a good hard look at our own society we might not like what we find and that's hard to acknowledge when we compare to China.
The Chinese system is horrible. The American credit system certainly has its flaws, but the Chinese system is designed to make people fall in line, not make people more likely to pay their bills...
The Chinese system is horrible. The American credit system certainly has its flaws, but the Chinese system is designed to make people fall in line, not make people more likely to pay their bills on time. This video really illustrates how scary it is - if the CCP disapproves of your actions, you can't buy a plane ticket, a train ticket, get a loan, etc. And one way to restore your score is with money...
I don't think we actually disagree. I'm not defending the Chinese system. I would argue that the American system, not just the credit system, but the credit system and the other attached systems...
I don't think we actually disagree. I'm not defending the Chinese system. I would argue that the American system, not just the credit system, but the credit system and the other attached systems (credit system + legal system + communications infrastructure and monitoring), does a lot more than encourage people to pay their bills on time. I think it does make people fall in line. Let's suppose you want a home loan or want to rent a nice apartment. Well first you'll need to demonstrate that you can pay bills on time. Well then you'll need a substantial source of reliable income that can pay your bills and the rent/mortgage payment. That likely means you must have a steady, well paying job and you'll need to behave yourself. That means doing what you're told and also staying out of legal trouble. If you have a bunch of money already, then you're all set, just like the Chinese system. I could go on and make similar arguments about how the American system prevents people with bad credit from traveling and so on. Although you may not agree I'm right, you likely understand my point.
I think the effects of the Chinese and American systems on the citizens are essentially the same. The difference is that the Chinese system is imposed from the top down, while the American system seems to have been produced "organically" from the many independent, self-preserving, entrenched interests. This difference seems to bother many Americans, perhaps rightfully so. However, I wish those same people would also reflect on their credit system and its effects.
Right right. It's like the effects of each system on the citizens are approximately the same, but the difference is that the Chinese system is imposed from the top down, while the American system...
Right right.
It's like the effects of each system on the citizens are approximately the same, but the difference is that the Chinese system is imposed from the top down, while the American system seems to have been produced "organically" from the many independent, self-preserving, entrenched interests.
IIRC, Some of the things going on with this social score are the direct inspiration for some Black Mirror episodes. I think they just took the existing "WTF" currently in China, and brought it to...
IIRC, Some of the things going on with this social score are the direct inspiration for some Black Mirror episodes.
I think they just took the existing "WTF" currently in China, and brought it to a logical extreme.
Assuming the reporting about the social credit system is accurate, imagine my surprise when it turns out that I agree with Mike Pence about something.
Yeah, that sounds quite oppressive and inhumane, and I hope the Chinese leadership realizes the error of their ways.
I don't see a reason why they would change, it's worked out quite well for them.
You're right, I don't see why they would, either. I somewhat fear that this sort of thing is terribly inevitable elsewhere, as technology makes it so easy.
The more insecure people feel (not are), the more they long for a strong leader. Why do you think right-wing parties are exploiting immigration as much as they can as a political platform?
Besides, in China the focus lies more on the collective instead of the individual. Most of the people there are pretty happy with the regime.
I'm curious as to whether his assessment was one of caution or praise.
People generally don't describe things as "Orwellian" in praise.
Good point. Though with his administration, I'm really not sure of that anymore.
Except for Nineteen Eighty-Four
Well sure, I suppose that is a caveat to my statement; Novels can be and are praised for being Orwellian.
That's my fault. I was making a bit of a joke.
Nineteen Eighty-Four is the specific novel by George Orwell people are referencing when they say something is Orwellian, so saying that it is Orwellian is basically just a statement of fact, and being a well written novel, it gets praised a lot.
Where is the Independent getting these figures? I don't see a source listed.
Ah now I see they reference the Associated Press but don't link to the original article (https://apnews.com/9d43f4b74260411797043ddd391c13d8), it's copied quite closely anyway.
But the Associated Press doesn't link or attach the report which is annoying.
I found https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/2186606/chinas-social-credit-system-shows-its-teeth-banning-millions which seems to be the base source but again no report.
Digging even further I found https://www.creditchina.gov.cn/home/lianhejiangchegn/201902/t20190215_146958.html (translation needed) which is the authoritative source, how much credit (badum-tish) to give the CCP as an honest source I leave up to you.
I'm interested in the similarities between the Chinese credit system and the American credit system. They don't seem very different. I'd argue that the American system does everything the Chinese system does, just in different ways. For example, in America, they'll impound your car if you don't pay parking tickets. Have bad financial credit in America? Then you'll need to pay for plane tickets up front. Doesn't that produce the same result as the Chinese system? Unless you pay for everything in cash and don't use a cell phone, you're being tracked by someone in America. I've also heard that it's difficult to get a good job in America without an online presence.
I don't really see why Americans get upset about the Orwellian Chinese system when they already seem to live in one.
One is a purely financial risk-management system, the other is a method to engineer speech and actions. Both have their problems, but I strongly believe that the differences outweigh the similarities, and that the latter is more detrimental to a person's overall rights and freedoms.
I'd agree that the American system is based entirely on financial risk. However, the system's real world effects on its citizens produce the same result as the Chinese system. I think the Chinese system is more overtly detrimental to a person's overall rights and freedoms, while the American system produces the same result, only in decentralized way. The American government isn't the one directly pushing you around, it's the entire economic system (which is maintained by the government).
I would argue that any large state, if it wants to persist, needs a social control system. It must only decide on the mechanism. To me, the American system appears to make heavy use of carrots and goes light on sticks, while the Chinese system may be the reverse. Heavier on the sticks, lighter on the carrots. Ultimately the effect is the same. Perhaps the Chinese system is better suited to control a massive population, and as the American population grows its credit system may begin morphing into the Chinese system. It may already be happening. For example, most Americans are aware that they're being monitored in one way or another. How does that change their behavior?
I posted this quote in a previous article about the social credit system, from this article. I definitely don't think that the systems are equivalent, but (like you) I do think some of the parallels are interesting:
Thanks for that link and quote. I'll give it a read.
You made some interesting points but this last sentence kind of ruined it for me. While their might be similarities between the US and Chinese systems the brazenness of the Chinese government is what's really scary here. It's not even open to debate it's already here. While the US system overall can be seen as similar if you put it all together it's really nothing compared to this shitshow.
Sorry if that was a bit hyperbolic. I still think the effects the US system has on its citizens is comparable to those of the Chinese system. Like another commenter said, it's how the system was implemented that bothers people. Does the method matter if the result is the same?
This will be controversial but hear me out: Americans are agitated by the Chinese system because it starts to poke at the myth that Americans are a free people. They're not. If an American wants to be free then they live without comforts. They're only as free as their massive, decentralized economic system and the government allows them to be. The Chinese people are also not free, except the government directly determines what freedoms they have, and to a lesser extent their economic system.
You know after thinking about it and taking a step back I think I'm more inclined to agree with you here. While I think it's objectively worse in China though apparent, the sneakiness of the implementation in the Western world seems almost as bad when you think about it. I think we like the classic bad guy like the Chinese government where it's obvious that they want to control us and it's easy to point out. If we take a good hard look at our own society we might not like what we find and that's hard to acknowledge when we compare to China.
The Chinese system is horrible. The American credit system certainly has its flaws, but the Chinese system is designed to make people fall in line, not make people more likely to pay their bills on time. This video really illustrates how scary it is - if the CCP disapproves of your actions, you can't buy a plane ticket, a train ticket, get a loan, etc. And one way to restore your score is with money...
I don't think we actually disagree. I'm not defending the Chinese system. I would argue that the American system, not just the credit system, but the credit system and the other attached systems (credit system + legal system + communications infrastructure and monitoring), does a lot more than encourage people to pay their bills on time. I think it does make people fall in line. Let's suppose you want a home loan or want to rent a nice apartment. Well first you'll need to demonstrate that you can pay bills on time. Well then you'll need a substantial source of reliable income that can pay your bills and the rent/mortgage payment. That likely means you must have a steady, well paying job and you'll need to behave yourself. That means doing what you're told and also staying out of legal trouble. If you have a bunch of money already, then you're all set, just like the Chinese system. I could go on and make similar arguments about how the American system prevents people with bad credit from traveling and so on. Although you may not agree I'm right, you likely understand my point.
I think the effects of the Chinese and American systems on the citizens are essentially the same. The difference is that the Chinese system is imposed from the top down, while the American system seems to have been produced "organically" from the many independent, self-preserving, entrenched interests. This difference seems to bother many Americans, perhaps rightfully so. However, I wish those same people would also reflect on their credit system and its effects.
I do work that's involved in these fields and I'll say that you have a point, but as others have noted, it's all about the implementation.
Right right.
It's like the effects of each system on the citizens are approximately the same, but the difference is that the Chinese system is imposed from the top down, while the American system seems to have been produced "organically" from the many independent, self-preserving, entrenched interests.
Does living in China feel like being in an episode of Black Mirror?
This kind of information is outright scary.
IIRC, Some of the things going on with this social score are the direct inspiration for some Black Mirror episodes.
I think they just took the existing "WTF" currently in China, and brought it to a logical extreme.
Relax. In a few years humans won't be deciding anything. <S
What? Too rigid? It's downright fucked up, that's what it is.