28 votes

Trump acquitted of two impeachment charges in near party-line vote

31 comments

  1. [14]
    Algernon_Asimov
    Link
    Good on Mr Romney. People of conscience and principle are few and far between, especially in politics.

    But in a stinging symbolic rebuke of the country’s leader aimed at history, Senator Mitt Romney of Utah, the 2012 Republican presidential nominee, broke with the party and voted to convict Mr. Trump of abuse of power

    Good on Mr Romney. People of conscience and principle are few and far between, especially in politics.

    28 votes
    1. Deimos
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      Axios got a photo of the note that Mitt Romney wrote to all other Republican senators to explain his vote:...

      Axios got a photo of the note that Mitt Romney wrote to all other Republican senators to explain his vote: https://www.axios.com/mitt-romney-trump-impeachment-vote-note-c09e8704-0196-41e9-8d7a-5d640f06c7f7.html

      He also did an interview with The Atlantic yesterday: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/02/romney-impeach-trump/606127/

      12 votes
    2. patience_limited
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      When taking principled moral stands, it helps if you're independently wealthy, and also have the backing of the Church of Mormon. Mittens isn't dependent on the Republican Party for campaign...

      When taking principled moral stands, it helps if you're independently wealthy, and also have the backing of the Church of Mormon. Mittens isn't dependent on the Republican Party for campaign funding and organizing resources.

      8 votes
    3. Kuromantis
      Link Parent
      (Wildly uninformed speculation ahead.) To me I think this shows that the Republican party (or at least their officials) are afraid of stepping against the party line because if they do then all...

      (Wildly uninformed speculation ahead.)

      To me I think this shows that the Republican party (or at least their officials) are afraid of stepping against the party line because if they do then all their political legitimacy will go away in the eyes of conservative pundits. Since Romney has his own political base (however small it may be) and his own legacy to fall back on he isn't bound to Trump or fox news and so he can and has spoke his mind. To me this shows how intertwined fox (and other lobbyists presumably) and the Republican party has become and how much cronyism and 'partisan hack'-ing has arisen from this.

      5 votes
    4. [10]
      suspended
      Link Parent
      The Republican party. Fixed that for you.

      People of conscience and principle are few and far between, especially in...

      The Republican party. Fixed that for you.

      5 votes
      1. [7]
        Algernon_Asimov
        Link Parent
        No. I won't accept that "fix". There are sell-outs in all political parties. There are people in all political parties who will vote along party lines, even if they disagree with their party's...

        No. I won't accept that "fix". There are sell-outs in all political parties. There are people in all political parties who will vote along party lines, even if they disagree with their party's policy. There are people in all political parties who have their eye on power, rather than principle.

        To say that this phenomenon is restricted to only the other political party is part of what's wrong with modern political discourse. It's the demonisation of one's political opponents. It's not conducive to constructive political discussion.

        18 votes
        1. [4]
          moonbathers
          Link Parent
          There are sellouts in all parties but Republicans are so, so much worse and have been for the last fifty years. There's not much constructive discussion to be had with them and both sides-ing it...

          There are sellouts in all parties but Republicans are so, so much worse and have been for the last fifty years. There's not much constructive discussion to be had with them and both sides-ing it only enables them.

          3 votes
          1. [3]
            suspended
            Link Parent
            You are 100% correct. Sadly, most people have already made up their minds and are brainwashed.

            You are 100% correct. Sadly, most people have already made up their minds and are brainwashed.

            3 votes
            1. [2]
              moonbathers
              Link Parent
              I just don't know how you can see everything the Republicans have done since Nixon and go "but the Democrats aren't that great either". It's night and day.

              I just don't know how you can see everything the Republicans have done since Nixon and go "but the Democrats aren't that great either". It's night and day.

              3 votes
              1. suspended
                Link Parent
                Again, you are 100% correct. If someone takes the time and effort to critically analyze this subject, then they will arrive with very similar (if not identical) conclusions that we have. I have...

                Again, you are 100% correct. If someone takes the time and effort to critically analyze this subject, then they will arrive with very similar (if not identical) conclusions that we have.

                I have spent nearly 35 years of critical engagement with the Biblical texts, from an academic perspective, and this phenomenon is the same.

                Most people have lost (or never had) their ability to critically analyze anything.

                5 votes
        2. [2]
          suspended
          Link Parent
          I don't disagree with you. I was speaking to this particular impeachment process.

          I don't disagree with you. I was speaking to this particular impeachment process.

          2 votes
      2. [2]
        Kuromantis
        Link Parent
        I'd Recommend you see what Iowa is going through now with their results and the political mess it has become.

        I'd Recommend you see what Iowa is going through now with their results and the political mess it has become.

        1. suspended
          Link Parent
          I've been following that story. Ridiculous!

          I've been following that story. Ridiculous!

  2. [6]
    Ellimist
    Link
    Once again, disappointed but not surprised. We knew there was almost zero chance the GOP would conduct a fair trial. McConnell and Graham and the others have been vocal from the beginning that the...

    Once again, disappointed but not surprised.

    We knew there was almost zero chance the GOP would conduct a fair trial. McConnell and Graham and the others have been vocal from the beginning that the impeachment would lead to nothing but an acquittal.

    All Americans can do now is hope the Democrats put forth a worthy candidate and vote in November. Sanders is my pick but I don’t know if the Dems have the courage to actually back him for once.

    17 votes
    1. [5]
      suspended
      Link Parent
      It's lead to more than that. Any future candidate president can now blackmail foreign leaders into putting their opponents in a bad spotlight and use foreign influence in the elections without any...

      ...impeachment would lead to nothing but an acquittal.

      It's lead to more than that. Any future candidate president can now blackmail foreign leaders into putting their opponents in a bad spotlight and use foreign influence in the elections without any repercussions.

      4 votes
      1. [4]
        multubunu
        Link Parent
        ... as long as they have a majority in the Senate. But that's always been the case. What's new is that, in these times, populists like Trump or Johnson get elected in the first place, which would...

        ... as long as they have a majority in the Senate. But that's always been the case.

        What's new is that, in these times, populists like Trump or Johnson get elected in the first place, which would have been unthinkable in previous years, at least in countries with a well established democratic system. And a majority of the political class is intimidated into allowing abuse of the democratic institutions.

        And these are ultimately symptoms of the social unrest, at the moment only psychological. Society still tries to fix itself within the democratic framework, as clumsyly as it may seem.

        8 votes
        1. [3]
          suspended
          Link Parent

          President Trump's defense argued in favour of lawlessness. Without witnesses Republicans have accepted that the President is above any checks and balances, that the president is above the law. President Trump's defense argued that if the President perceives their actions to be in the best interest of Americans than the President is above the law and can solicit foreign election interference. They are normalizing lawlessness. The evidence is so overwhelming that their best defense is that the President is above the law.

          6 votes
          1. [2]
            multubunu
            Link Parent
            I don't understand. Does that constitute legal precedent? (honest question, we don't have common law where I'm from).

            I don't understand. Does that constitute legal precedent? (honest question, we don't have common law where I'm from).

            1 vote
            1. suspended
              (edited )
              Link Parent
              As far as I know, yes. EDIT: Found some articles. Trump lawyer: Trump can’t be prosecuted for shooting someone ‘He did it. So what?’ The dangerous precedent Trump lawyers are asking Senate...
              6 votes
  3. [11]
    suspended
    Link
    There have been whispers that the house could start another impeachment inquiry against Donald J. Trump.

    There have been whispers that the house could start another impeachment inquiry against Donald J. Trump.

    7 votes
    1. [10]
      moonbathers
      Link Parent
      I hope they do. Now they can fight in court to get Pompeo, Mulvaney, et al., to testify.

      I hope they do. Now they can fight in court to get Pompeo, Mulvaney, et al., to testify.

      4 votes
      1. [7]
        multubunu
        Link Parent
        I'm not from the US, so I'm not that invested in this matter, but I'd risk two cents on the idea that insistence at this moment would be helping Trump. Right now he was "exonerated" in a dubious...

        I hope they do.

        I'm not from the US, so I'm not that invested in this matter, but I'd risk two cents on the idea that insistence at this moment would be helping Trump. Right now he was "exonerated" in a dubious process controlled by his political allies. Another go from the opposition would be just as insuccessfull (as long as the Senate keeps its current composition), but would paint him as a victim.

        4 votes
        1. [5]
          Rez
          Link Parent
          Anyone who would want to see Trump as a victim already sees him as one. Republicans voted to repeal Obamacare dozens of times and made Hillary Clinton do a bunch of testimony over Benghazi...

          Anyone who would want to see Trump as a victim already sees him as one. Republicans voted to repeal Obamacare dozens of times and made Hillary Clinton do a bunch of testimony over Benghazi alongside other victimizing processes. No conservatives worried about looking unsuccessful or painting Clinton as a victim. In this era of hyperpartisanship, all that matters is ruthless tribal loyalty, like being loyal to a sports team. When one side starts playing that way, your only recourse is to respond in kind. If Dems relentlessly impeached Trump then that would be a message in and of itself, you could spin it as "Well just because the corrupt Republicans are acquitting him doesn't mean he isn't guilty, so we'll keep impeaching him." Trump's going to be painted as a victim regardless. He's only "exonerated" if Dems accept that narrative. If you impeach him again (not that I had considered this before this comment) it's effectively saying "Nope, he wasn't really exonerated, just let off the hook by his buddies, he's still guilty so we're still impeaching."

          7 votes
          1. [4]
            multubunu
            Link Parent
            You might be right, and I don't have a lot of insight into American politics, but general observation on politics and elections show that there is always a group of undecided, which don't care...

            Anyone who would want to see Trump as a victim already sees him as one.

            You might be right, and I don't have a lot of insight into American politics, but general observation on politics and elections show that there is always a group of undecided, which don't care that much about politics and don't have a lasting choice. These are not the people that you see at rallies. And at least some of them do vote.

            In fact, the whole purpose of a campaign is to catch these votes, not your loyal supporters' (they vote with you no matter what), neither the other side's (which vote with them no matter what). In Romania we have a situation where the new party, young, untainted politicians, have campaigned largely for their crowd - and got their votes, which they already had...

            3 votes
            1. [3]
              Rez
              Link Parent
              Right but the whole picture has to be considered - what is really going to be a deciding factor for a person come November? A significant amount of Trump's appeal to people who don't closely...

              Right but the whole picture has to be considered - what is really going to be a deciding factor for a person come November? A significant amount of Trump's appeal to people who don't closely follow politics is little more than the fact that he's entertaining and domineering - he "wins" and does so in a way that isn't boring, and he certainly isn't trying to expand his coalition. People are bored of the arcane, boring processes traditionally favored by elites. They want to see fights and they see that Trump is a fighter. They see him fighting on Twitter and they see him and his associates ridiculing political opponents in a very public, juvenile way. The symbolic wins are all that matters in this new era of American politics, as well as turning any of the opposing side's wins into ties or losses.

              5 votes
              1. Gaywallet
                Link Parent
                This seems like a very shallow analysis of what's going on. Do you really think that the most important issues to someone who's struggling in middle to lower class america is 'does my candidate...

                They want to see fights and they see that Trump is a fighter. They see him fighting on Twitter and they see him and his associates ridiculing political opponents in a very public, juvenile way.

                This seems like a very shallow analysis of what's going on. Do you really think that the most important issues to someone who's struggling in middle to lower class america is 'does my candidate want to start some DRAMA??' There are people out there struggling to survive who legitimately think Trump is going to help make their daily lives better.

                4 votes
              2. multubunu
                Link Parent
                Isn't it more than that, though? A decrease in personal wealth for a multitude of people, a degree of uncertainty after the 2008 crisis. Traditional politicians don't seem to handle those...

                Isn't it more than that, though? A decrease in personal wealth for a multitude of people, a degree of uncertainty after the 2008 crisis. Traditional politicians don't seem to handle those grievances, or to even care (Obama is an exception). And trust in the "establishment" has been slowly eroding since the sixties (not only in the US).

                Some of that distrust is justified, and honest politicians, old or new, need to fix that somehow. Hunting the trolls to the bitter end might be counterproductive; what those need is attention. Not sure if you followed UK politics lately, BJ had what seemed to be a disastruos start as PM, and finished with a convincing win in the elections...

                3 votes
        2. moonbathers
          Link Parent
          I think they wouldn't necessarily have to send articles to the Senate or even vote on them. Just open another inquiry and get those guys to come testify. You get to put all the shit they did on...

          I think they wouldn't necessarily have to send articles to the Senate or even vote on them. Just open another inquiry and get those guys to come testify. You get to put all the shit they did on record and then don't move forward and have to deal with the witch hunt accusations.

          As an aside it's amusing that witch hunt is the analogy of choice when innocent people were executed in that and the worst people are getting in American politics the last few years is prison.

          2 votes
      2. [2]
        Gaywallet
        Link Parent
        Court? Senate trials are not court.

        Court? Senate trials are not court.

        1. moonbathers
          Link Parent
          I mean addressing the fact that they tried subpoenaing some of those guys and the administration was like "nah". One of Republicans' big arguments against removing Trump was that Democrats didn't...

          I mean addressing the fact that they tried subpoenaing some of those guys and the administration was like "nah". One of Republicans' big arguments against removing Trump was that Democrats didn't get more people to testify, but it would have spent months tied up in court and Trump would have continued trying to cheat the election in the meantime. He's going to do that anyway, but I'm glad they impeached him nonetheless.

          5 votes