an_angry_tiger's recent activity

  1. Comment on What games have you been playing, and what's your opinion on them? in ~games

    an_angry_tiger
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    I haven't played BotW, and I also find the weapon durability thing in TotK strange. I've talked to people about it recently, and they have interesting responses to why its the way it is, but in...

    I haven't played BotW, and I also find the weapon durability thing in TotK strange. I've talked to people about it recently, and they have interesting responses to why its the way it is, but in the end I can't help but feel like I wish it all just wasn't there, that you just accumulate weapons and pick the one with the high attack that you like the most. The way it is right now, I have no connection to any weapon, I can't, because I'll soon either need to drop it to make room for something else, or it will break after the first fight. I've started even just trying to ignore combat as much as possible, the rewards often don't seem the effort, and its a drain on my weapons, makes me have to go through the whole UI flow for equipping and fusing a weapon again, and just seems to distract me from the part of the game that I find fun: walking places and climbing things.

    1 vote

  2. Comment on What games have you been playing, and what's your opinion on them? in ~games

    an_angry_tiger
    Link Parent
    getting to that point feels like such an accomplishment in SE, an entire journey to build up the base to be able to do that. And then the game after that is so many different types of that...

    stealthedit: i just got my first satelite into orbit, what a ride!

    getting to that point feels like such an accomplishment in SE, an entire journey to build up the base to be able to do that.

    And then the game after that is so many different types of that moments, going to space for the first time, doing your first space sciences, colonizing another planet, etc.

    3 votes

  3. Comment on What games have you been playing, and what's your opinion on them? in ~games

    an_angry_tiger
    (edited )
    Link Parent
    Well, took the words out of my mouth before I could. I should also say I haven't really used a planner in SE (I think literally once this run), I don't find it particularly useful in SE because...

    Well, took the words out of my mouth before I could.

    I should also say I haven't really used a planner in SE (I think literally once this run), I don't find it particularly useful in SE because you'll have such a hard time fully saturating all your production to keep things smooth. Once you start getting in to the sciences you do in space, everything will eventually end up bottlenecked by how fast you can mine resources on other planets (core mining plateaus after about 3 miners per planet, and conventional mining will eventually turn in to a game of whackamole, keeping mines up and running), and which resources are needed is very variable depending on what science you're currently using (they're not all needed at once for each bit of research), so even if you plan out the capacity, most of the time it won't be reached.

    Reaching for a high science per minute in SE is tricky, since there's not much research to be done per each level of science pack, so even if you do build out your overall factory to support building packs fast, you'll quickly research everything that uses the packs you have, and you'll have a surplus until you can build out the next level of e.g. material packs level 3 or whatever.

    I've been subscribing to the simple "if x is being held back by a lack of y, build more things that make y" approach and haven't had an issue with that. SE is designed to keep things moving at a certain pace, and going faster than that gets very tricky.

    edit: and I think the other remedy at some point, or at least the other approach i'm sticking to now, is to improve production by ramping up modules. Modules in SE are very powerful, and can replace adding more and more assemblers in many places. Put productivity modules in as many things as you can (especially science labs), and you can make them faster with beacons loaded with speed modules. The higher levels of modules cost a lot of resources for only a +2% gain or so each time, but they're still an easy lever to pull to help out. I'm on level 6 or so of prod and speed modules, and with those two in tandem, I can get assemblers that are +50% more productive and run at about +200 or +300% speed -- so effectively I'm getting the same amount of output for 66% of the input (through prod modules), and doing it 2 to 3 times faster than otherwise. Scaling up a production line the same way without modules would require 2 to 3 times as many assemblers (and 2 to 3 times as much area), and require 33% more of each input (meaning more and more and more assemblers and area taken up, etc.)

    2 votes

  4. Comment on Megathread #9 for news/updates/discussion of AI chatbots and image generators in ~tech

    an_angry_tiger
    Link Parent
    I feel it's because we all get bombarded by stories and hype and fears of how powerful AI is and how its going to take over, and how experts say the government needs to step in and license AI to...

    I feel it's because we all get bombarded by stories and hype and fears of how powerful AI is and how its going to take over, and how experts say the government needs to step in and license AI to prevent a catastrophe, and how it's going to take over the entire job market, and how companies are planning mass layoffs due to replacing workers with AI, and all that crap.

    And then you use ChatGPT in something you know enough about and suddenly you see that it's a bit of a facade, it responds with something that looks plausible at first glance but the more you look in to it is useless. It's a counter-reaction to all the sentiment of how amazing it is. It's both a very impressive piece of technology that is only going to get better, and at the same time it's garbage that will lie to you knowingly.

    6 votes

  5. Comment on Facebook owner Meta hit with record €1.2bn fine over EU-US data transfers in ~tech

    an_angry_tiger
    Link Parent
    The hacker news thread had an interesting way of putting it: it's only about 4 days of revenue for Facebook/Meta, or about 20 days of income.

    The hacker news thread had an interesting way of putting it: it's only about 4 days of revenue for Facebook/Meta, or about 20 days of income.

    9 votes

  6. Comment on What games have you been playing, and what's your opinion on them? in ~games

    an_angry_tiger
    (edited )
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    Factorio, Space Exploration But no for once I have something else intruding on my precious Factorio time, and that thing is: Did you know the Nintendo Switch is perfectly emulatable on a PC? Prior...

    Factorio, Space Exploration

    But no for once I have something else intruding on my precious Factorio time, and that thing is:

    Did you know the Nintendo Switch is perfectly emulatable on a PC? Prior to this weekend I didn't, but it's true, there are working Switch emulators out there, with ROMs for things like the latest Zelda game everyone is talking about, and they seem to work pretty well -- some would say they run better than an actual switch does.

    Now I would never do such a morally dubious thing, I'm an upstanding citizen, I pay my taxes and I mow my lawn. In any case, I've been playing two Switch games: that latest Zelda Tears of the Kingdom and Super Mario Odyssey

    Super Mario Odyssey
    Love it, it's adorable, it's fun, good stuff all around. I think Super Mario 64 is the best 3D platformer ever made (and I think Super Mario World is the best 2D platformer ever made) and I feel so much of it in this game.

    The movement's great, graphics are great, the levels are great, everything's great. I love throwing my hat at things and becoming those things, I become tank, I become goomba, I become electricity. Neat feature. There's an entire stage that's a play on New York, and there are actual human people there -- not Mario human but real human, normal proportioned ones. Weird choice, big fan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1IHvzwUd6w

    That Zelda Tears of the Kingdom game
    I just made it out of the tutorial island, on to Hyrule, talked to that guy in the first guardtower, and called it a night. Mixed feelings about the game, not that I think it's bad, but not something I was super looking forward to.

    The game starts you off in media res, apparently right off the heels of the prior game, which I have not played, and launches in to the plot. Link and Zelda are underneath the Hyrule castle, some stuff happens, suddenly I'm in a floating island in the sky doing a tutorial and trying to eventually save Zelda.

    In tutorial island in the sky, I had to find and complete 3 shrines, each one imbuing me with another ability. The abilities seem neat, but also give me pause as I hit the suspicion that this game is going to be an open world puzzle game, which is also not particularly my kind of game. It seems like the focus for completing dungeons and what-have-you will be using the different abilities to get around obstacles and building contraptions using your gmod ability. I guess that is the m.o. for zelda games, remembering my last foray in to the series, with Ocarina of Time when I was 13 -- a game I enjoyed but haven't really felt the desire to play any others in the series since then.

    We'll see, I'm not sure it's my kind of game yet, but I only just made it out to the open world part of it. I get a weird feeling in the open world part however, knowing that anything I do is going to require a lot of time spent just travelling places (on foot for now, until I get a horse), doing little mini-dungeons along the way. It reminds me of Elden Ring, a game I sunk at least 100 hours in to so far, but I've already played one Elden Ring and not sure if I'm keen on launching in to another. I also much prefer the ER combat, and it's world, and it's story, and even it's janky engine. I also enjoyed not having to do puzzles in ER, the real puzzle in that game is navigating the dungeons and finding the next bonfire. Does it work the other way around too? Do people who do Breath of Wild first try Elden Ring second and decide it's too much too soon?

    Anyway the real big issue I have with both of these Switch games is that they use the same button labels as the controller I'm used to (xbox360 controller), the ABXY buttons, but they've flipped the A and B and X and Y and you can't imagine how much this trips me up constantly. I keep wanting to confirm menu actions with what I'm used to as "A", but the button I end up hitting is "B" and it cancels me out of the menu. It is a constant translation I have to do to make sure the "X" button they're referring to is the one I intend to hit (Y) and not the other one.

    Factorio, Space Exploration
    I'm trying to solve my biters issue through auto-glaives. I intend to genocide all biters from huge energy beams orbiting the sun. Good game.

    10 votes

  7. Comment on Anyone here in or familiar with Denver and the surrounding area? Going on a trip and have zero idea what to do as a non-tourist... in ~hobbies

    an_angry_tiger
    (edited )
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    I've been there twice on work, so didn't get a comprehensive tour of the city, but enjoyed it nonetheless. see a Rockies game at Coors Field: beautiful stadium, nice outdoor, in good summer...

    I've been there twice on work, so didn't get a comprehensive tour of the city, but enjoyed it nonetheless.

    • see a Rockies game at Coors Field: beautiful stadium, nice outdoor, in good summer weather
    • see Union Station: its just a small old train station but they've redone it to be a modern hip-ish food/drink place too
    • walk around the river, you can get there from Union Station over a cute little bridge
    • see the state Capitol building: it's got a gold dome!
    • eat Mexican (maybe TexMex?) food at D'Corazon: went there once and really liked it
    • go to the Denver Mint: it's free! (I think) and its kind of neat, did you know it's the largest producer of coins in the world?

    aside from that if I was able to go back with a car, I'd check out Boulder, the Red Rock amphitheatre, and drive around in to the rockies (might take a few hours though, I know getting to the good ski hills takes 1.5 to 2 hours).

    Denver has great weather (very dry, not overly hot, not cold at all outside of winter (aside from the dead of the night)), and interesting history due to being a frontier town. There has to be a bunch of cool historical stuff around to see, especially with a car.

    6 votes

  8. Comment on What games have you been playing, and what's your opinion on them? in ~games

    an_angry_tiger
    Link
    Factorio, space exploration My last post on it: https://tildes.net/~games/14rh/what_games_have_you_been_playing_and_whats_your_opinion_on_them#comment-7rwk It's hard to say how long I've been...

    Factorio, space exploration

    My last post on it: https://tildes.net/~games/14rh/what_games_have_you_been_playing_and_whats_your_opinion_on_them#comment-7rwk

    It's hard to say how long I've been playing, maybe 100-200 hours on this save, which puts me solidly in the middle of the mid-game for the mod. That last post said I had played Factorio for 300 hours, and now my steam count is 648 (and a half!) hours. Could that be? Could I have played another 350 hours of this mod? Wouldn't surprise me, although I bet I meant to say 500 hours that time and it's only been 150 hours of this mod.

    The mod feels like a natural extension of the base game, fleshed out with an entirely new face of logistics (rockets to and from other planets). I remain very impressed, it's an interesting experience.

    It's still ticking away at a gradual pace. A lot of my time spent now is with fighting against biters, picking off one bottleneck at a time, and getting started on the next leg of research. Each new step of research induces a huge demand on existing production, having a lot of production requires a lot of power and mining, a lot of power and mining produces a lot of pollution, which pisses off more biters, which come to destroy your factory, which you have to hold back with walls and turrets, which suffer attrition over time from biter attacks, which require manual intervention in fixing and nuking the biter bases that spawned to hold them at bay.

    At some point I started migrating systems to use Logistics Train Network, hoping to reduce the burden on my mainbus setup, and allow scaling up of components in a way that is harder to do when using only belts. it has helped and generally makes things easier, but I don't think its as effective as it is in vanilla factorio. in vanilla factorio, there are a lot less things to produce, and scaling up end products (usually green and red circuits) is a lot simpler due to having less of them, concentrating the demand in a few areas (for circuits its copper and iron iirc, red circuits you also need plastic).

    In space exploration, every end product ends up requiring a long chain of things to get there, and becomes even more of a burden once it crosses a planetary barrier -- i.e. if I want to scale up my cargo rocket section production I need to use beryl plates to use the more cost effective method, and beryl plates requires beryllium from another planet, and the more beryl plates I need the more beryllium I need from those planets, which means if I'm using core miners I hit a cliff after about 3 core miners on a planet, and after that I need to expand to non-core miners (which eventually run out, short term gains for long term crises), or expand to other beryllium-producing planets, annnnnd then if I do that I also need to ship off cargo rocket sections and rocket fuels to another planet entirely, increasing the demand in those hot items, expand my logistics to send things to that new planet on-demand, deal with biters (if there's biters on the planet), have another planet I need to keep track of to ensure production is running at capacity, and the more beryllium I need the more planets I need, and the more planets I need the farther away they are, and the farther away they are the more the rocket fuel cost is, which just eventually leads me to a new production issue with keeping up with rocket fuel demand.

    In vanilla factorio if I need more circuits, I build more circuit factories until I need more inputs, then I build more iron and copper mines until thats not an issue, and then I build more oil production until thats not an issue, and they all get linked with LTN stations and everything works. scaling up in space exploration ends up touching so many different parts that can fail, involves adding more and more in each step of your logistics, and is generally something that you cannot do easily, its always a gradual process.

    I've settled in to a nice spot with it though. My base runs pretty smoothly, my outposts mostly run themselves, and manual intervention can for the most part be done remotely through launching logistics rockets to them. I have an automated logistics train that goes up the space elevator to my space-base, automatically requesting what it's lacking. I can expand and scale production easily on my main planet through LTN stations. I automate logistics bot production and delivery, and deploy new logistics bots when there aren't enough. Life is good. I'm still excited to keep plodding along, racking up the new sciences until I eventually hit the end game (which I take to be naquium) with the arcospheres or whatever. It's an interesting mod for someone that's already covered vanilla Factorio extensively.

    6 votes

  9. Comment on What do you not ask the internet about? in ~talk

    an_angry_tiger
    Link Parent
    I've also given up on restaurant recommendations, because the last times I've tried it its been mostly useless. I search for something like "good reuben sandwich in nyc", all the results are SEO...

    I've also given up on restaurant recommendations, because the last times I've tried it its been mostly useless.

    I search for something like "good reuben sandwich in nyc", all the results are SEO spam or aggregates, or just filtering of places that have "reuben" on the menu, ranked by the restaurants rating. I don't want that, I want to know where I can go to get a quintessential reuben, I want to go to a place that's known for having a good reuben, I want people's first hand experience that that reuben is good and that if someone asks me where I can get a good reuben in the future, its that place.

    The most promising part of that search, as always, was adding "reddit" to the query and looking up those results. Unfortunately those results were years old and most of those places closed.

    Restaurant recommendations to me feels like one of those searches where there's a surfeit of information, but its noisy and useless.

    6 votes

  10. Comment on April Fools Thread in ~talk

  11. Comment on They posted porn on Twitter. German authorities called the cops in ~tech

    an_angry_tiger
    Link Parent
    For me that's 2000s era internet forums, run by weirdos on the internet for the community and for their own vain desires, instead of giant conglomerated social media companies run purely for the...

    For me that's 2000s era internet forums, run by weirdos on the internet for the community and for their own vain desires, instead of giant conglomerated social media companies run purely for the soulless drive for profit.

    The forum admins weren't always good at running their forums, and most of the time were downright bizarre in their actions, but it was a human bizarre, not a bizarre that is the outcome of algorithms and scaling up communities for profitability.

    4 votes

  12. Comment on Justin Roiland domestic violence charges dismissed, slams ‘horrible lies reported about me’ in ~tv

    an_angry_tiger
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    (by the way I changed the article's title slightly from "Justin Roiland Cleared of Domestic Violence Dismissed, ‘Rick and Morty’ Creator Slams ‘Horrible Lies Reported About Me’", because I'm not a...

    “Rick and Morty” creator Justin Roiland has been cleared of domestic violence charges, Variety confirms. Kimberly Edds, spokeswoman for the Orange County District Attorney’s office, said in a statement: “We dismissed the charges today as a result of having insufficient evidence to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt.”

    Roiland took to social media to respond to the dropped charges, writing in a statement that he is “thankful the case has been dismissed. He added, “I’m still deeply shaken by the horrible lies that were reported about me during this process.”

    (by the way I changed the article's title slightly from "Justin Roiland Cleared of Domestic Violence Dismissed, ‘Rick and Morty’ Creator Slams ‘Horrible Lies Reported About Me’", because I'm not a big fan of the word "cleared" there when there just wasn't sufficient evidence to proceed with the case. Can't say my opinion of him has changed, doesn't seem like a good guy!)

    2 votes

  14. Comment on DPReview.com to close in ~hobbies

    an_angry_tiger
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    Absolutely tragic and bizarre news. For as long as I've been in to photography, DPReview was the site I turned to for camera reviews, news, comparisons, buying guides, etc. The forums were always...

    Absolutely tragic and bizarre news. For as long as I've been in to photography, DPReview was the site I turned to for camera reviews, news, comparisons, buying guides, etc. The forums were always one of the top results for photography questions (although its questionable how helpful it was).

    I cannot believe that Amazon is just going to get rid of it entirely instead of selling it or keeping it going forever in a maintenance mode. It is such a waste of the hardwork done by the people working there over decades.

    For fans of the (excellent) video content they do, the boys are going to keep doing their thing over at PetaPixel instead:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLikDUacsC8
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6T3qWI2c-Y

    5 votes

  15. Comment on Adobe announces Firefly, generative AI tooling inside of Adobe Creative Suite products in ~tech

    an_angry_tiger
    Link Parent
    From the announcement they said that they would be making it clear when something had been generated with AI, and letting people opt out of their content being included in the training by applying...

    From the announcement they said that they would be making it clear when something had been generated with AI, and letting people opt out of their content being included in the training by applying a tag.

    I also recall hearing about AI ethics boards and stuff that Adobe is participating in, although I don't remember the details. It may just be lip service, but it at least seems like Adobe is trying to do well with it.

    3 votes

  16. Comment on Adobe announces Firefly, generative AI tooling inside of Adobe Creative Suite products in ~tech

    an_angry_tiger
    Link
    I got to play with this in the internal beta before it was announced. Went in not really caring much about it since its another generative AI tool, but found myself having a lot of fun seeing what...

    I got to play with this in the internal beta before it was announced. Went in not really caring much about it since its another generative AI tool, but found myself having a lot of fun seeing what the other 30k people working at Adobe did with it. It has the usual issues with generative AIs (freaky hands, weird conceptions of things, etc.) but seems to really excel at generating content you'd use for illustrations and adding effects to existing things. The impression it left on me was that it would be a very cool tool for existing illustrators and designers to use to enable their creativity and streamline their workflow, and not as much a general AI made to handle every problem imperfectly.

    Also glad to see the response here so far isn't negative, unlike for most things Adobe does 👀

    4 votes

  17. Comment on For the sixth year in a row, Finland is the world's happiest country, according to World Happiness Report rankings in ~life

  18. Comment on What games have you been playing, and what's your opinion on them? in ~games

    an_angry_tiger
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    Factorio, but this time the Space Exploration mod I'm what I would consider a veteran to Factorio, I'd played it for over 300 hours over the last almost decade. I've more or less done the big...

    Factorio, but this time the Space Exploration mod

    I'm what I would consider a veteran to Factorio, I'd played it for over 300 hours over the last almost decade. I've more or less done the big things in the base game enough that I've felt like I have seen it all. I've tried a few of the overhaul mods like Krastorio and Warptorio and Seablock, and they were fun but never quite grabbed me. Krastorio seemed too much like vanilla but just with more complicated recipes. Warptorio had a great idea but I could never tread water in it. Seablock is good but it takes a loooong time and I always end up having to figure out how to eek out the next bit of a recipe to get on to the next bit of research -- felt more like a puzzle game to me than anything else.

    I forget what caught my interest about Space Exploration, I think I was reading about it somewhere and the build and fly a spaceship part grabbed my attention. Every once in a while I get an idea in my head to do another long game of Factorio, with something past the base game win condition to keep my interest.

    I've been giving Space Exploration a try and raw thoughts: it's good, I like it, it seems like it adds a big layer past the base game that fits in with the game, holy crap it's long.

    According to many experts (i.e. I googled it and howlongtobeat.com says), it takes about 50 hours to "beat" (i.e. launch the rocket) Factorio. That's all the stages of belts, to coal power, to solar power, to nuclear power, to bots, and finally launching the rocket.

    It took me 42 hours in Space Exploration just to get in space -- effectively starting the mid-game. It took me 55 hours just to get the requester chests. I think it's going to take me many more hours just to automate the science production levels I've already reached, and have been doing partially by hand.

    Main takeaway intended from that is that it is long, but nonetheless has felt like an interesting challenge of that time. The way the mod gates the progress is interesting and doesn't just feel like drawing it out for the sake of drawing it out. The parts that I was hesitant to build out with belts, trying to delay until I could research logistics chests (until I realized that was too far in advance to be realistic), end up being the big building block of the next step of the games, and not a one-off thing you need to build.

    The first chunk of the "early game" is building out raw materials (iron plates, copper, same as usual), then the next is manually building out the parts for the infrastructure of your base (belts, inserters, motors, etc.), then the next is circuits and chemicals, then the beginning of space launches (just satellites, not cargo rockets, not you going in to space) with stuff like low-density-structures and solid rocket fuel. Once you've gotten enough research to start looking at launching cargo rockets in to space, you shift in to preparing to build your base in orbit, which quick-starts the "mid game".
    You have to be in space to do the space research (the fundamental science pack for mid-game and beyond), so you need to have the resources in space to build the space science pack, and also to do the research in space (can't build the right science lab on earth). The resources being the expensive ones you had to set up production back on earth using belts for, like blue circuits, low density structures, rocket fuel, glass, etc., along with all the science packs you already have chains set up for on earth -- now those packs need to be blasted in to space for research use.
    Once you've gotten your beginner space research up and running in space, you need to set up outposts on other planets to mine resources -- only available on other planets -- that are needed to do the next tiers of research (including, notable for me, the logistics chests like requester chests that I so badly craved).

    Once you hit that point of launching rockets to other planets and back, where I am right now, you've entered this interesting tier of the game, past what vanilla lets you do, of starting to automate shipping rockets between planets to be able to gather resources and send them back, to continue researching. The base-game's different mods of transport/infrastructure (i.e. belts, trains, robots) still shine, with a big addition of cargo rockets and blasting resources around between planets -- and eventually fully automating it with circuit networks.

    Anyway that's my long spiel on Factorio's Space Exploration mod. I'm about 60 hours in to it after 2 weeks, it's consuming my free time, it's a long game, I've been enjoying it, and it seems like I have at least twice that amount of time to see most of what the mod has to offer.

    4 votes

  19. Comment on Cities Skylines 2 | Official announcement trailer in ~games

    an_angry_tiger
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    Well it's the announcement we've all been waiting for for years, and I couldn't be happier. No idea what they'll change about it yet, but C:S1 at this point is kind of collapsing under the weight...

    Well it's the announcement we've all been waiting for for years, and I couldn't be happier.

    No idea what they'll change about it yet, but C:S1 at this point is kind of collapsing under the weight of its DLCs and mods, can't wait for a new start with a fresh foundation.

    6 votes

  20. Comment on What’s something you’ve noticed about getting older? in ~talk

    an_angry_tiger
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    I've started realizing the finiteness of my life and the real need to be proactive in doing the things you want to do. Snowboarding for example. I learned when I was a young teen, didn't do much...

    I've started realizing the finiteness of my life and the real need to be proactive in doing the things you want to do.

    Snowboarding for example. I learned when I was a young teen, didn't do much of it for years, and then tried again a few years ago at the age of 30 or so, fell back in love with it and want to make it a regular part of my life.

    Snowboarding is something you can only do for a few months out of the year, and in those few months you need to plan ahead since any hill is going to be at least a few hours out of the way. Maybe I can keep doing it until I'm 65 or so, so that leaves me with 32 seasons I can go snowboarding, that's it. Every year I don't go out for that is one year I can't get back to go do it, it's over. Eventually the time will run out and my knees and legs won't be good enough to be able to do it anymore, and it's over, no more chances.

    Realizing that put a lot more pressure on me to be proactive in making plans to do it. Every hill is at least a couple hours out of the way, so I need to plan ahead and lock in times and manage transportation (book a bus, rent a car, etc.), block off a weekend, make a concerted effort, and go out and do it. If I don't make it happen it's not going to happen and eventually there won't be any more chances to make it happen.

    The same goes for anything in life. I only get maybe 50 more christmasses in me before I die, that's it. My nephews will only have so many birthdays before I die, my parents will have even fewer before they die. You have to savour the moments while they're here, because there's a finite supply of them. Once they're gone, they're gone, can't get more.

    7 votes