40 votes

Is the United States in its Soviet Union era?

For the last 10-years or so, I've been much more interested in US history, it started because I wanted to be a more informed citizen, but continued because of how much recorded history differed from how I was taught. Then I started seeing how the lofty offerings of America, as an idea, had really never existed.

Like, when the rest of the world was watching the Soviet Union from the outside as it proudly proclaimed how amazing they were and everyone was kind of glancing at each other and whispering "They know we can see how it's going, right?" I wonder if the same is happening now, as countries watch US politics unfold. How close are we from a failure here or there to cascading failure?

I'm at a point of accumulated facts, doing my best to remove my personal bias, that I can't help but think we were arrogant to think we could keep a continent this large in one piece. The weight of national systems that can support a population this spread out is immense. The upkeep of infrastructure at this scale is a logistics nightmare. Passing any national laws has become the chore that just never gets done, we'll always get to it tomorrow. The people, Americans, can be amazing, but that's a truth of humanity, not nationality.

I'm sad to think I could be witnessing the end of something really impressive and inspiring, even if a lot of it was some makeup and nice lighting. Thoughts?

28 comments

  1. [2]
    koopa
    Link
    I really don’t see a Soviet style collapse coming at all. There’s nothing fundamentally wrong with American economy or society at large other than social media powered rage. The US is still the...

    I really don’t see a Soviet style collapse coming at all. There’s nothing fundamentally wrong with American economy or society at large other than social media powered rage. The US is still the richest country on earth and its only real economic problems are too much government debt. But that’s the kind of thing that takes a long time to become an issue and pretty much all the other rich democracies are in worse debt situations.

    Trump is a bad guy and a worse president but I would look towards the way authoritarianism has succeeded in the American system in the past for answers rather than the Soviet collapse. I think things like segregation, Jim Crow, the Chinese Exclusion Act etc are much more along the lines of what we would see in a potential breakdown of American liberal democracy. And we should look for guidance from the history of abolitionism, desegregation, and other anti-fascism traditions in America that ultimately won out in the past.

    46 votes
    1. Dr_Amazing
      Link Parent
      Yeah I think it will probably become a lot less fun to live in the states, but the government and economy will keep on chugging along.

      Yeah I think it will probably become a lot less fun to live in the states, but the government and economy will keep on chugging along.

      11 votes
  2. [12]
    snake_case
    Link
    The difference between us and the Soviet Union is that the rest of the world could watch that train wreck from their position of stability and not have to worry that the collapse of that country...

    The difference between us and the Soviet Union is that the rest of the world could watch that train wreck from their position of stability and not have to worry that the collapse of that country will take us all down too.

    The rest of the world isn’t doing that great either. I was reading something the other day that pretty much every incumbent got voted out across the board regardless of what side they were on politically. There are leaders out there worse than Elon, and they have a lot more power over their countries than Elon does.

    Things are bad, and a lot of the western countries are taking a second to watch this particular train wreck but even they have their own very serious problems to contend with.

    27 votes
    1. [10]
      Eji1700
      Link Parent
      Ummm....this is not very accurate and sorta kinda horribly insensitive to the many countries both in and outside the soviet union that were MASSIVELY affect by the fall of the soviet union. There...

      The difference between us and the Soviet Union is that the rest of the world could watch that train wreck from their position of stability and not have to worry that the collapse of that country will take us all down too.

      Ummm....this is not very accurate and sorta kinda horribly insensitive to the many countries both in and outside the soviet union that were MASSIVELY affect by the fall of the soviet union. There were massive ramifications for most of the countries on that side of the world and the soviets allies, it's just that yes the anglosphere/west/whatever you want to call it got to mostly watch from the sidelines

      30 votes
      1. [3]
        DefinitelyNotAFae
        Link Parent
        I mean the US was also constantly in and out of wars over communism that were indirect conflicts with the USSR, while continuously having nuclear bomb drills and never quite being sure if this...

        I mean the US was also constantly in and out of wars over communism that were indirect conflicts with the USSR, while continuously having nuclear bomb drills and never quite being sure if this conflict would turn out to be the one that resulted in mutually assured destruction. It certainly wasn't just sitting in the stands watching the show, and the attitude probably reflects more of being young during that time.

        I didn't learn to duck and cover (we had tornado drills that were basically the same though) but I know I picked up a lot about the idea that if the nukes went off, "we" were a target because of "x" feature/resource/power plant/ something, and that we'd all be dead. There's no reason for 7 year old me to have any idea about any of that, even if it was all wrong.

        12 votes
        1. [2]
          Eji1700
          Link Parent
          Oh yeah I was just talking about the fall of the soviet union specifically, not the entire cold war (which even then yes there were effects for everyone), but like...multiple countries were...

          Oh yeah I was just talking about the fall of the soviet union specifically, not the entire cold war (which even then yes there were effects for everyone), but like...multiple countries were relying on alliances and trade with the soviet union when it fell. It wasn't a "sideline" event.

          7 votes
          1. DefinitelyNotAFae
            Link Parent
            I was definitely "yes and-ing" sorry if that didn't come through in the tone Agreed!

            I was definitely "yes and-ing" sorry if that didn't come through in the tone

            Agreed!

            4 votes
      2. [2]
        Weldawadyathink
        Link Parent
        Could you recommend some more resources for learning about this? I was under the same impression as the person you replied to, and I would love to educate myself further.

        Could you recommend some more resources for learning about this? I was under the same impression as the person you replied to, and I would love to educate myself further.

        1 vote
        1. Eji1700
          Link Parent
          I have nothing specific since it's stuff I went over years ago in college. In general at the bare minimum what was eastern europe at the time, and what would become eastern europe now had some...

          I have nothing specific since it's stuff I went over years ago in college. In general at the bare minimum what was eastern europe at the time, and what would become eastern europe now had some serious issues, ditto with some of their global allies who depended on the soviet union. Just about any history book or reading on the areas around the soviet union or allies with them ought to go over it.

      3. [4]
        snake_case
        Link Parent
        I think we can maybe reach a middle ground with “Less globally devastating than the first time Rome was sacked” And “More devastating than whatever the current civil wars are in Africa” Lots of us...

        I think we can maybe reach a middle ground with

        “Less globally devastating than the first time Rome was sacked”

        And

        “More devastating than whatever the current civil wars are in Africa”

        Lots of us were affected by the Soviet Union’s existence, but I remember the actual collapse being just a news piece. Long term I don’t think it changed our relationship with Russia much. I think the rise of the Soviet Union perhaps did more damage than the collapse of it.

        1 vote
        1. [3]
          stu2b50
          Link Parent
          Was that globally devastating? The first time Rome was sacked was in 390 BC. I'd assume you're talking about the Visigoth one in 410 AD, but even by then it was mostly symbolic. By then, the...

          “Less globally devastating than the first time Rome was sacked”

          Was that globally devastating? The first time Rome was sacked was in 390 BC. I'd assume you're talking about the Visigoth one in 410 AD, but even by then it was mostly symbolic. By then, the Italian provinces were an impoverished and ultimately unimportant, although historically significant, to the Roman administration.

          Certainly I doubt anyone in China, or India, or sub-saharan Africa, or most of Asia cared very much.

          3 votes
          1. [2]
            snake_case
            Link Parent
            The first time changed the tone of the whole empire and represented the new weakness of the empire, I use that one as the starting point of the collapse of the Roman Empire but many people use...

            The first time changed the tone of the whole empire and represented the new weakness of the empire, I use that one as the starting point of the collapse of the Roman Empire but many people use different starting points.

            I just define that moment because the collapse of the roman empire has no universally agreed definitive date, but the affect of it was eventually felt in the Asian empires.

            1. sparksbet
              Link Parent
              I think the idea that the sacking of Rome was even close to as globally impactful as the collapse of the Soviet Union is pretty ahistorical, much less any claim that it was more impactful. Unless...

              I think the idea that the sacking of Rome was even close to as globally impactful as the collapse of the Soviet Union is pretty ahistorical, much less any claim that it was more impactful. Unless instead of "globally" you actually mean "Italy".

              1 vote
    2. [2]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. snake_case
        Link Parent
        I’m pretty sure Putin is worse than Trump

        I’m pretty sure Putin is worse than Trump

  3. Minithra
    Link
    Yup, I have very cynical expectations of the future. We've generally become too willing to keep trying to solve things peacefully via dialogue and established democratic processes, to the point...

    Yup, I have very cynical expectations of the future.

    We've generally become too willing to keep trying to solve things peacefully via dialogue and established democratic processes, to the point we've let things get too far, because the... I want to say other side, or enemy, because that's what I think of anti-democracy parties, never follows the same rules.

    I'm worried that our lines have gone so far back that things will get much worse and the collapse or conflict (if it ever happens, rather than most of the western world descending to idiocy) will have a much higher cost than if certain wastes of space had been disposed of some years ago.

    16 votes
  4. lou
    (edited )
    Link
    A more apt comparison would be to Italy in 1922 during the rise of Mussolini or Germany in 1933 when Adolf Hitler became chancelor. You may also compare the rise of Trump to several dictatorships...

    A more apt comparison would be to Italy in 1922 during the rise of Mussolini or Germany in 1933 when Adolf Hitler became chancelor.

    You may also compare the rise of Trump to several dictatorships during the previous and current centuries in Latin America.

    15 votes
  5. ChingShih
    Link
    There are certainly parallels between the US now and the Soviet Union. There are parallels between what's happening in the US and Europe and what was happening in the western nations in the 1920s...

    There are certainly parallels between the US now and the Soviet Union. There are parallels between what's happening in the US and Europe and what was happening in the western nations in the 1920s and 1930s. But I want to caution against drawing direct parallels and divining truths from what are, at best, our amateur interpretations of extremely complex circumstances that individuals really can't comprehend.

    I went to Rwanda a few years ago because I wanted to know more about the genocides that happened in 1994 in Burundi and Rwanda. The ethno-nationalist sentiment that was expressed there so violently feels very different than all the literature and film I've consumed on WW2, despite having a lot of commonalities, too. I could draw parallels between the initiation of a ethnically-prejudiced society run by paranoid leaders having their strings pulled by self-interested parties. I could mention the more than three decades of state-sponsored propaganda and fear-mongering that fueled divisions lasting generations among people who were literally ethnically the same, but put in different political categories.

    But that doesn't really help us in the present, because then people start to see the historical conclusion of the past as the only viable outcome of the future. We're in command of our future. Let's not sleep-walk into a nightmare.

    14 votes
  6. Notcoffeetable
    Link
    I recently listened to Anne Applebaum's Autocracy Inc. a fascinating read/listen that I recommend. The majority of chapters are about how current authoritarian leaders cooperate for their own...

    I recently listened to Anne Applebaum's Autocracy Inc. a fascinating read/listen that I recommend. The majority of chapters are about how current authoritarian leaders cooperate for their own enrichment. We are engaged in a conflict between the populations who desire representative governments and the rich who want to take leverage their amassed assets into political power with the goal of robbing as many national resources for themselves as possible.

    The reason that we see Trump befriending authoritarians is because he wants in on the personal enrichment scheme. Musk wants the same thing. The fascist tendencies we see are a feature of the march towards authoritarian control of public assets.

    I'm at a point of accumulated facts, doing my best to remove my personal bias, that I can't help but think we were arrogant to think we could keep a continent this large in one piece. The weight of national systems that can support a population this spread out is immense. The upkeep of infrastructure at this scale is a logistics nightmare. Passing any national laws has become the chore that just never gets done, we'll always get to it tomorrow.

    I don't think the land mass is the problem. The problem is a constitution that predates the internet by approximately 200 years. Our checks and balances operate at the speed of a horse.

    13 votes
  7. [2]
    stu2b50
    Link
    Why Soviet Union? It's not like the Soviet Union was a failed state its entire existence, nor is it the only state that's ever failed (if anything, that's the fate of all states, so far). Just...

    Why Soviet Union? It's not like the Soviet Union was a failed state its entire existence, nor is it the only state that's ever failed (if anything, that's the fate of all states, so far). Just seems odd to single it out.

    We'll have to see, but the US has never particularly been a paragon of anything. One of our most celebrated leaders famously suspended habeas corpus lol. You don't have to look very far in the past to see things just as egregious.

    I'd note that the US government at one point jailed the leaders of the US Socialist Party for political reasons, causing Eugene V. Debs to infamously run for President from jail.

    At least we're not at that point yet!

    13 votes
    1. Eji1700
      Link Parent
      I think people also don't totally understand that there's LOTS of "functional" states that don't fail, but are far worse than the current US and can rival the Soviet Union at its worst. The things...

      I think people also don't totally understand that there's LOTS of "functional" states that don't fail, but are far worse than the current US and can rival the Soviet Union at its worst.

      The things that cause a state to fail (or change) are not 1 to 1 with the social issues people are worried about. The US absolutely could continue as an oligopoly and not "fail", at least not in any way relatable to the fall of the soviet union.

      10 votes
  8. [3]
    skybrian
    Link
    Nobody really knows the future, but one scenario I see as likely is that someone new will be elected in four years and everyone will try to forget about Trump as quickly as possible - including...

    Nobody really knows the future, but one scenario I see as likely is that someone new will be elected in four years and everyone will try to forget about Trump as quickly as possible - including many of those who voted for him.

    (Memories of the pandemic are a bit fuzzy already.)

    So no, I don't think a comparison to the Soviet empire makes all that much sense, or at least not yet, anyway. There has never been much of a tradition of democratic rule in Russia.

    8 votes
    1. [2]
      BeardyHat
      Link Parent
      Then maybe 20 years after that, articles and blogs "Is it time to reappraise the Trump Presidencies?" Yikes.

      Then maybe 20 years after that, articles and blogs "Is it time to reappraise the Trump Presidencies?"

      Yikes.

      6 votes
      1. an_angry_tiger
        Link Parent
        At least his body won't live long enough to transition in to the "aw ain't he a peaceful little painter guy" a la GWB. Or maybe it will in some kind of scifi horror, held together with duct tape...

        At least his body won't live long enough to transition in to the "aw ain't he a peaceful little painter guy" a la GWB.

        Or maybe it will in some kind of scifi horror, held together with duct tape and spite, I shudder to think of that future.

        2 votes
  9. [3]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. [2]
      public
      Link Parent
      Increasingly tempted to go rile up political discussions by posting how I’m openly hoping some Chinese agents offer me a briefcase of cash to sell out my fentanyl-addicted countrymen. Especially...

      except the Chinese are less likely to screw you over

      Increasingly tempted to go rile up political discussions by posting how I’m openly hoping some Chinese agents offer me a briefcase of cash to sell out my fentanyl-addicted countrymen. Especially since your point is right: Trump is exceptionally bad at selling out his underlings long before they’ve exhausted their usefulness.

      5 votes
      1. [2]
        Comment deleted by author
        Link Parent
        1. public
          Link Parent
          This could serve as an analogy for democracy vs. established dictatorship.

          This could serve as an analogy for democracy vs. established dictatorship.

          2 votes
  10. mordae
    Link
    In Czechia, if you ask people who lived through the late years of USSR, they all point out one single issue above all else. Sure they resent fake trials, media control, snooping, travel...

    In Czechia, if you ask people who lived through the late years of USSR, they all point out one single issue above all else. Sure they resent fake trials, media control, snooping, travel restrictions and all that totalitarian crap, but when you ask "How come there was not enough toilet paper and working fridges?" the reply always ends up being:

    Nobody felt motivated to work.

    People in general felt that giving their best at whatever job they held was not important.

    Now compare this to current US or even general western situation.

    4 votes
  11. [2]
    bkimmel
    Link
    OMG I am so happy to hear someone else say this. My wife is sick of me pointing at everything over the last 5 or 6 years and shouting "Look! It's late-stage Soviet Union!!!" ad nauseum. Once you...

    OMG I am so happy to hear someone else say this. My wife is sick of me pointing at everything over the last 5 or 6 years and shouting "Look! It's late-stage Soviet Union!!!" ad nauseum. Once you see it, you can't unsee it. Thank you for making me feel less alone in this.

    I've tried to find good books about the end of the SU, haven't really found any I'm really happy with yet.

    3 votes