[...] [...] [...] This is very much in line with a comment that I made on Tildes a few days ago. I think it applies to all ages, actually, but younger children are disproportionately negatively...
The nation's pediatricians have come out with a strong statement in favor of bringing children back to the classroom this fall wherever and whenever they can do so safely. The American Academy of Pediatrics' guidance "strongly advocates that all policy considerations for the coming school year should start with a goal of having students physically present in school."
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The AAP argues that based on the nation's experience this spring, remote learning is likely to result in severe learning loss and increased social isolation. Social isolation, in turn, can breed serious social, emotional and health issues: "child and adolescent physical or sexual abuse, substance use, depression, and suicidal ideation." Furthermore, these impacts will be visited more severely on Black and brown children, as well as low-income children and those with learning disabilities.
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The guidance for returning to in-person schooling includes recommendations about physical distancing, cleaning and disinfection, hand-washing, and using outdoor spaces whenever possible.
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The guidelines do note that adult school staff are more at risk compared to young children and need to be able to distance from other adults as much as possible — no in-person faculty meetings, no class visits by parents. And they emphasize the need to make accommodations for students who are medically fragile or have special health care needs or disabilities.
This is very much in line with a comment that I made on Tildes a few days ago. I think it applies to all ages, actually, but younger children are disproportionately negatively affected by the limited social interaction of the quarantine. I have since become more certain of my opinion: it is our responsibility to ensure that students, especially young children, do not end up with a stunted social education because we were too focused on our own problems to consider theirs.
Honest question, as a non-parent: how? I agree with the goal, but how can this be achieved when the teachers and instructors (and their own families) are more vulnerable than their students? Even...
especially young children, do not end up with a stunted social education because we were too focused on our own problems to consider theirs
Honest question, as a non-parent: how? I agree with the goal, but how can this be achieved when the teachers and instructors (and their own families) are more vulnerable than their students? Even before the pandemic there was the trope of children in school being disease factories.
I'm not qualified enough to answer that question conclusively, but whatever the best option is, we have to think outside the box. Literally. The coronavirus is less likely to spread between...
Exemplary
I'm not qualified enough to answer that question conclusively, but whatever the best option is, we have to think outside the box. Literally. The coronavirus is less likely to spread between individuals who are outdoors than indoors, and I think that this is one of the keys to any serious nationwide solution to the pandemic. Ventilation is better when you aren't stuck in a small room with 30 other people, and being outside naturally offers more space. Most schools in the United States have some sort of open area for recreation—"open" relative to a classroom, whether this space is indoors or outdoors—such as a basketball gym or a football field. Some even have several; my (public) high school had a soccer/lacrosse field, baseball field, and two indoor basketball gyms (one too small to be of much use here, but another that could easily fit the whole school, even socially distancing). I don't think that's typical, but even clearing out a parking lot would be an option. The point is that we have to get creative; our number one step should be to invite students back to campus in spaces that are quantitatively safer than small classrooms wherever possible.
Obviously this is an incomplete solution, and there are also a number of challenging associated logistical details. Urban schools rarely have the space that their suburban or rural counterparts do, leaving already-underfunded inner-city districts with comparatively few options. Indoor gyms get loud very quickly, necessitating some sort of sound barriers and/or a limited number of students sent at any given time (perhaps an alternating A/B schedule). Some climates are also less or more suited for long-term outdoor presence; most students in suburban New York wouldn't particularly mind being in the open air until maybe October, November if it's warm, but there's no realistic way to hold school outdoors from December through March. Conversely, the winter is the time when most Texans would prefer to be outside (at least insofar as the heat is concerned; not sure about humidity!). Outdoor areas would need shelter from the weather (like large wedding tents), or else school couldn't be held on rainy days. When I was a high school sophomore (I think), we ate under one of these for several weeks at the beginning of the year while the cafeteria was undergoing renovations. It wasn't anything special, but it worked.
Any large-scale solutions would require a lot of creative thinking and also some amount of capital, but a certain amount of the latter would probably be saved by not running the air conditioning/heat in a large building during the months where it's bearable to be outside. I would expect the government to offer support, or at least hope that it would, especially for poorer districts. But as long as you have chairs, a whiteboard, and a large-ish tent, that's a perfectly acceptable way to learn. When I was in the Boy Scouts, the summer camp I went to had counselors teaching merit badges (often pretty academic ones, like environmental science, not all hands-on) in similar structures—these were definitely sturdier (and permanent), but still barebones; just a bit of wood on concrete (no walls) and a basic roof. Even on the wettest days, the actual educational area was fine. We didn't use a lot of paper. I'm certain that schools would be able to find a way to get electricity to a field adjacent to the building if that's required for a class or type of activity, charging personal laptops or whatever.
The pandemic requires a full-scale structural re-evaluation of the whole educational system, from kindergarten to undergraduate and beyond. My suggestion wouldn't be to return to an identical form of schooling as the one we're familiar with, because that's clearly untenable. In addition to requiring mask usage among all students and teachers (for kids who have the ability), students could just electronically send their instructors what they write rather than handing in physical, potentially germy documents. Cafeterias would have to be something more like take-out. I'm not sure how shared equipment would work, but it would involve a lot of cleaning. Contract tracing could be employed where feasible, especially for staff. There are obviously other little issues too, but few of them are fundamentally unsolvable. In areas where case rates are on the decline and it's reasonably safe to be in a room with other people again, I'd have no problem with a more typical school day. That can't happen everywhere, though it's better if it happens in some places than absolutely nowhere in the United States. I also suspect quite strongly that students' mental health would improve a lot if they spent less time indoors, but that's a topic for another time.
If necessary, it wouldn't be the end of the world to transition to fully online school for the cold winter months, or in other situations where any sort of in-person learning is literally impossible. But that can't just be the default that we turn to. We've never had to deal with a pandemic in these circumstances before, so obviously ideas like the ones above are going to sound a bit crazy at first. But we need some sort of innovation right now, not an immediate return to the status quo. And I'm not even suggesting that this is the only potential solution; what I propose is naturally something that I can imagine, and someone with a different set of experiences could imagine a better alternative. The important part is not to prevent kids from openly interacting with each other in person for a straight year or more, and to actually sit down and think hard about ways to make this happen.
Younger children are aslo disproportionately not affected by SARS-CoV2, though there is still the problem of kids getting it at school and spreading it to elderly or immunocompromised family...
Younger children are aslo disproportionately not affected by SARS-CoV2, though there is still the problem of kids getting it at school and spreading it to elderly or immunocompromised family members at home.
I thought children could be affected. I remember back in May, New York reported about ~100 cases of children being affected. It's not super well understood what happens either according to this...
It's not super well understood what happens either according to this article from the Atlantic. To top it off, Oregon just reported that in the end of June, there were nearly as many cases in young children as there were in adults 80 or older.
I'm not talking about infection rates, I'm talking about the infection fatality rate. It varies significantly by age. Seniors make up the lions share of covid deaths despite the virus spreading...
I'm not talking about infection rates, I'm talking about the infection fatality rate. It varies significantly by age. Seniors make up the lions share of covid deaths despite the virus spreading rapidly among younger people. As of May 13, New Yorkers under 45 only accounted for 4% of covid-related deaths, and most of those were compounded by pre-existing conditions.
If you ask a random 8 year old to wash their hands, what do you think the odds of them complying is? You put 500+ kids in a building with adult staff (who likely don't have proper paid sick leave...
If you ask a random 8 year old to wash their hands, what do you think the odds of them complying is?
You put 500+ kids in a building with adult staff (who likely don't have proper paid sick leave and already have to buy their own supplies) and you have a recipe for disaster.
I live in an area where this system is already in place and the issue is actually the absolute opposite. They had to start handing out hand creams at schools and kindergartens and stop kids from...
I live in an area where this system is already in place and the issue is actually the absolute opposite. They had to start handing out hand creams at schools and kindergartens and stop kids from washing their hands as thoroughly. A lot of kids got dried, cracked skin and the risk of other infections just skyrocketed.
The issue is that they see on the news, the kids news, and get informed in school over and over how important hand washing is and kids tend to be a bit too enthusiastic about stuff and easily slide in to new routines.
If asked in a specific manner: very high, actually. Especially if supervised. It's already a biological disaster. Kids are very effective at transmitting diseases that they can be infected with....
If you ask a random 8 year old to wash their hands, what do you think the odds of them complying is?
If asked in a specific manner: very high, actually. Especially if supervised.
You put 500+ kids in a building with adult staff (who likely don't have proper paid sick leave and already have to buy their own supplies) and you have a recipe for disaster.
It's already a biological disaster. Kids are very effective at transmitting diseases that they can be infected with. This isn't exactly novel for anyone that deals with kids on a regular basis. I've had my fair share of kids (not my own) cough directly into my face. Even without the current threat, one learns strategies to avoid being a vector.
This is the key that will be missed by at least half the population: They aren't calling to send them back before the pandemic is over (or "because the pandemic is over").
This is the key that will be missed by at least half the population:
whenever they can do so safely
They aren't calling to send them back before the pandemic is over (or "because the pandemic is over").
The US is currently seeing a massive spike in cases. Is there anywhere in the US where "they can do so safely"? If (as I suspect) the answer is no, then this could easily be interpreted as a push...
The US is currently seeing a massive spike in cases. Is there anywhere in the US where "they can do so safely"? If (as I suspect) the answer is no, then this could easily be interpreted as a push to get kids back to school even if it is not completely safe to do so.
To build on that...many (most?) USA public schools are both drastically underfunded and overcrowded. Even when I was a kid in the 90s, we were sitting at 30+ kids in a classroom space designed for...
To build on that...many (most?) USA public schools are both drastically underfunded and overcrowded. Even when I was a kid in the 90s, we were sitting at 30+ kids in a classroom space designed for 25. I'm seeing reports of 35+ being in that same sized space now.
I 100% agree that socialization of young children is extremely important. I'm thinking of trying to build a small local home-school community ( < 10 kids, all in same zip code) where it's easier to verify everyone is taking the distancing and cleanliness seriously.
Yeah, that's my worry. I'm not sure. It seems like in places like Maine, Vermont, and some counties in Michigan, Montana, etc., cases have dropped off significantly, at least according to this map.
Yeah, that's my worry.
Is there anywhere in the US where "they can do so safely"?
I'm not sure. It seems like in places like Maine, Vermont, and some counties in Michigan, Montana, etc., cases have dropped off significantly, at least according to this map.
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This is very much in line with a comment that I made on Tildes a few days ago. I think it applies to all ages, actually, but younger children are disproportionately negatively affected by the limited social interaction of the quarantine. I have since become more certain of my opinion: it is our responsibility to ensure that students, especially young children, do not end up with a stunted social education because we were too focused on our own problems to consider theirs.
Honest question, as a non-parent: how? I agree with the goal, but how can this be achieved when the teachers and instructors (and their own families) are more vulnerable than their students? Even before the pandemic there was the trope of children in school being disease factories.
I'm not qualified enough to answer that question conclusively, but whatever the best option is, we have to think outside the box. Literally. The coronavirus is less likely to spread between individuals who are outdoors than indoors, and I think that this is one of the keys to any serious nationwide solution to the pandemic. Ventilation is better when you aren't stuck in a small room with 30 other people, and being outside naturally offers more space. Most schools in the United States have some sort of open area for recreation—"open" relative to a classroom, whether this space is indoors or outdoors—such as a basketball gym or a football field. Some even have several; my (public) high school had a soccer/lacrosse field, baseball field, and two indoor basketball gyms (one too small to be of much use here, but another that could easily fit the whole school, even socially distancing). I don't think that's typical, but even clearing out a parking lot would be an option. The point is that we have to get creative; our number one step should be to invite students back to campus in spaces that are quantitatively safer than small classrooms wherever possible.
Obviously this is an incomplete solution, and there are also a number of challenging associated logistical details. Urban schools rarely have the space that their suburban or rural counterparts do, leaving already-underfunded inner-city districts with comparatively few options. Indoor gyms get loud very quickly, necessitating some sort of sound barriers and/or a limited number of students sent at any given time (perhaps an alternating A/B schedule). Some climates are also less or more suited for long-term outdoor presence; most students in suburban New York wouldn't particularly mind being in the open air until maybe October, November if it's warm, but there's no realistic way to hold school outdoors from December through March. Conversely, the winter is the time when most Texans would prefer to be outside (at least insofar as the heat is concerned; not sure about humidity!). Outdoor areas would need shelter from the weather (like large wedding tents), or else school couldn't be held on rainy days. When I was a high school sophomore (I think), we ate under one of these for several weeks at the beginning of the year while the cafeteria was undergoing renovations. It wasn't anything special, but it worked.
Any large-scale solutions would require a lot of creative thinking and also some amount of capital, but a certain amount of the latter would probably be saved by not running the air conditioning/heat in a large building during the months where it's bearable to be outside. I would expect the government to offer support, or at least hope that it would, especially for poorer districts. But as long as you have chairs, a whiteboard, and a large-ish tent, that's a perfectly acceptable way to learn. When I was in the Boy Scouts, the summer camp I went to had counselors teaching merit badges (often pretty academic ones, like environmental science, not all hands-on) in similar structures—these were definitely sturdier (and permanent), but still barebones; just a bit of wood on concrete (no walls) and a basic roof. Even on the wettest days, the actual educational area was fine. We didn't use a lot of paper. I'm certain that schools would be able to find a way to get electricity to a field adjacent to the building if that's required for a class or type of activity, charging personal laptops or whatever.
The pandemic requires a full-scale structural re-evaluation of the whole educational system, from kindergarten to undergraduate and beyond. My suggestion wouldn't be to return to an identical form of schooling as the one we're familiar with, because that's clearly untenable. In addition to requiring mask usage among all students and teachers (for kids who have the ability), students could just electronically send their instructors what they write rather than handing in physical, potentially germy documents. Cafeterias would have to be something more like take-out. I'm not sure how shared equipment would work, but it would involve a lot of cleaning. Contract tracing could be employed where feasible, especially for staff. There are obviously other little issues too, but few of them are fundamentally unsolvable. In areas where case rates are on the decline and it's reasonably safe to be in a room with other people again, I'd have no problem with a more typical school day. That can't happen everywhere, though it's better if it happens in some places than absolutely nowhere in the United States. I also suspect quite strongly that students' mental health would improve a lot if they spent less time indoors, but that's a topic for another time.
If necessary, it wouldn't be the end of the world to transition to fully online school for the cold winter months, or in other situations where any sort of in-person learning is literally impossible. But that can't just be the default that we turn to. We've never had to deal with a pandemic in these circumstances before, so obviously ideas like the ones above are going to sound a bit crazy at first. But we need some sort of innovation right now, not an immediate return to the status quo. And I'm not even suggesting that this is the only potential solution; what I propose is naturally something that I can imagine, and someone with a different set of experiences could imagine a better alternative. The important part is not to prevent kids from openly interacting with each other in person for a straight year or more, and to actually sit down and think hard about ways to make this happen.
Younger children are aslo disproportionately not affected by SARS-CoV2, though there is still the problem of kids getting it at school and spreading it to elderly or immunocompromised family members at home.
I thought children could be affected. I remember back in May, New York reported about ~100 cases of children being affected.
It's not super well understood what happens either according to this article from the Atlantic. To top it off, Oregon just reported that in the end of June, there were nearly as many cases in young children as there were in adults 80 or older.
I'm not talking about infection rates, I'm talking about the infection fatality rate. It varies significantly by age. Seniors make up the lions share of covid deaths despite the virus spreading rapidly among younger people. As of May 13, New Yorkers under 45 only accounted for 4% of covid-related deaths, and most of those were compounded by pre-existing conditions.
The scary thing for me (fit 36yo male) isn't the risk of mortality but the risk of permanent organ damage from the micro clots that get formed.
There seems to be a lot more to this disease than fatal/not fatal. Is there any data yet on long term respiratory problems for survivors by age?
Is there? Last I heard this is not true, assuming preventative measures like hand washing and changing clothes is followed.
If you ask a random 8 year old to wash their hands, what do you think the odds of them complying is?
You put 500+ kids in a building with adult staff (who likely don't have proper paid sick leave and already have to buy their own supplies) and you have a recipe for disaster.
I live in an area where this system is already in place and the issue is actually the absolute opposite. They had to start handing out hand creams at schools and kindergartens and stop kids from washing their hands as thoroughly. A lot of kids got dried, cracked skin and the risk of other infections just skyrocketed.
The issue is that they see on the news, the kids news, and get informed in school over and over how important hand washing is and kids tend to be a bit too enthusiastic about stuff and easily slide in to new routines.
If asked in a specific manner: very high, actually. Especially if supervised.
It's already a biological disaster. Kids are very effective at transmitting diseases that they can be infected with. This isn't exactly novel for anyone that deals with kids on a regular basis. I've had my fair share of kids (not my own) cough directly into my face. Even without the current threat, one learns strategies to avoid being a vector.
This is the key that will be missed by at least half the population:
They aren't calling to send them back before the pandemic is over (or "because the pandemic is over").
The US is currently seeing a massive spike in cases. Is there anywhere in the US where "they can do so safely"? If (as I suspect) the answer is no, then this could easily be interpreted as a push to get kids back to school even if it is not completely safe to do so.
To build on that...many (most?) USA public schools are both drastically underfunded and overcrowded. Even when I was a kid in the 90s, we were sitting at 30+ kids in a classroom space designed for 25. I'm seeing reports of 35+ being in that same sized space now.
I 100% agree that socialization of young children is extremely important. I'm thinking of trying to build a small local home-school community ( < 10 kids, all in same zip code) where it's easier to verify everyone is taking the distancing and cleanliness seriously.
Yeah, that's my worry.
I'm not sure. It seems like in places like Maine, Vermont, and some counties in Michigan, Montana, etc., cases have dropped off significantly, at least according to this map.
We here in Massachusetts and the northeast in general are doing pretty well, at least relatively speaking.