A few years ago I started trying to improve myself. I quit drinking, quit smoking, and tried to start working on some of my bad habits like over eating. One of the hardest parts about changing...
A few years ago I started trying to improve myself. I quit drinking, quit smoking, and tried to start working on some of my bad habits like over eating. One of the hardest parts about changing yourself is realizing that the world stays the same, and that you have adjust your expectations of others.
I’d love to hear more on this. I’ve also steadily improved my health. First losing 60 lbs of fat, then eating healthier, then doing cardio regularly, then going mostly vegetarian, then...
I’d love to hear more on this. I’ve also steadily improved my health. First losing 60 lbs of fat, then eating healthier, then doing cardio regularly, then going mostly vegetarian, then weightlifting regularly. But I guess my friends are generally pretty healthy so I don’t feel much of a conflict. Are you friends and family heavy drinkers and smokers?
My friend group lost someone to a drug overdose a couple of years ago. It affected us all in different ways, I got sober, others have changed their lives in different ways. One example is that I...
My friend group lost someone to a drug overdose a couple of years ago. It affected us all in different ways, I got sober, others have changed their lives in different ways. One example is that I was able to quit smoking with relative ease, my wife has had a much more difficult time. It's not so much that my friend group are drug users or alcoholics, we all just liked to party, but I have to remind myself that we're all on our own journey and I can't judge others because they didn't handle the situation the same way that I did.
That’s really tough. Thank you for sharing. I don’t think I’ll ever quite understand what it’s like to quit smoking. I have a close friend who has been struggling with that for years. It is...
That’s really tough. Thank you for sharing.
I don’t think I’ll ever quite understand what it’s like to quit smoking. I have a close friend who has been struggling with that for years. It is clearly very hard for him to stop.
I read the article and still don't fully grasp it. My gist was that their experiment was basically a game theory setup that tested generosity vs. selfishness, and they found that generous (G)...
I read the article and still don't fully grasp it. My gist was that their experiment was basically a game theory setup that tested generosity vs. selfishness, and they found that generous (G) people prefer playing with other G people, and selfish (S) people prefer playing with other S people.
Generous
Selfish
Generous prefers
Yes
No
Selfish prefers
No
Yes ‼️
Which is counterintuitive, because I would think that G and S both prefer G, and neither prefer S.
Generous
Selfish
Generous prefers
Yes
No
Selfish prefers
Yes
No
So is the insight that people prefer people who they think share their same model of behavior and therefore can have predictable, stable interactions with?
I’m not sure it’s totally relevant to the article, but I’ve seen a similar phenomenon with my family playing boardgames, especially Catan. Some of us are generous and willing to trade more freely,...
I’m not sure it’s totally relevant to the article, but I’ve seen a similar phenomenon with my family playing boardgames, especially Catan. Some of us are generous and willing to trade more freely, but some of us are much more ruthlessly tactical and will refuse to trade (even if it’s for a significant advantage) with whoever is closest to victory. The generous traders don’t like the ruthless tactics because it feels mean when the game should be about fun. And the selfish players don’t like when people are generous with trades (even if they’re generous towards them) because they feel the game should be played strategically and with optimal decisions.
It’s not totally the same thing, but I’ve seen it enough that your expected outcome tables caught my attention in that way.
I wonder if moral envy explains a bit of this. Moral envy being envious of another's (usually higher) set of moral standards, the example here being generosity. The selfish is envious of the...
I wonder if moral envy explains a bit of this. Moral envy being envious of another's (usually higher) set of moral standards, the example here being generosity.
The selfish is envious of the generous's ability to be generous, and thus is repulsed by them.
I think what you proposed is also true, about predictability of behavior of someone more similar as you. I suggest there might be some suspicion, doubt towards the generous person by someone selfish. They don't understand how/why they would be generous, "there's gotta be a catch" type feeling involved, and rather not deal with the indebted-ness that can result from generosity. Those who are selfish probably don't want that burden of the obligation to give back.
I think it goes both ways. Both are repulsed by the other, but that does not necessarily mean there's envy either way. Some selfish people consider being selfish the right attitude, they may think...
I think it goes both ways. Both are repulsed by the other, but that does not necessarily mean there's envy either way. Some selfish people consider being selfish the right attitude, they may think of generous as "sucker" and another selfish as an equal adversary, and to them taking advantage of each others are just fair game. It's not usual but prioritizing self benefit is also a moral framework, one that to these people they are the superior.
I’d love for them to explore more of the idea of ‘toxic selflessness,’ where another person acts selfless, and any time you act in your own interests they identity you as a maverick, and people...
I’d love for them to explore more of the idea of ‘toxic selflessness,’ where another person acts selfless, and any time you act in your own interests they identity you as a maverick, and people can use this to pressure and manipulate others into fulfilling their interests (masquerading as the greater good) as a result of this attitude.
I had a mentor that would constantly reveal what a piece of shit he was through his opinions and prior actions when he was younger. Slowly over time, as I didn't affirm his actions as "normal" he...
I had a mentor that would constantly reveal what a piece of shit he was through his opinions and prior actions when he was younger.
Slowly over time, as I didn't affirm his actions as "normal" he began to hate me (I made sure not to seem judgemental, I just didn't "agree").
Ended up doing his best to fuck over my career in the end, not really a surprise.
I didn't think this extended both ways. I've definitely started to notice that the people with the most cynical view of politicians are usually kind of awful people. Politics is just the way I...
I didn't think this extended both ways. I've definitely started to notice that the people with the most cynical view of politicians are usually kind of awful people. Politics is just the way I notice it because people like to talk about it.
You reminded me of one of my favourite lines from one of my favourite musicals (into the woods). The witch calls the rest not good, not bad, just nice.
You reminded me of one of my favourite lines from one of my favourite musicals (into the woods). The witch calls the rest not good, not bad, just nice.
I’m not OP but I’ll have a crack at it: “Politics is just the way I notice (this phenomenon) because people like to talk about (politics)” Or to elaborate, OP comes across this concept (that...
I’m not OP but I’ll have a crack at it:
“Politics is just the way I notice (this phenomenon) because people like to talk about (politics)”
Or to elaborate, OP comes across this concept (that generous and selfish people prefer generous and selfish people respectively) most often when political discussions are happening, because that’s when people are more likely to share the types of opinions that OP uses to categorise them as generous or selfish.
Cynicism and skepticism aren't the same thing. I'm all for skepticism. That's just where I've noticed the connection between a person assuming others are selfish and being selfish themselves....
Cynicism and skepticism aren't the same thing. I'm all for skepticism.
Politics is just the way I notice it because people like to talk about it.
Could you rephrase that? It's not parsing for me.
That's just where I've noticed the connection between a person assuming others are selfish and being selfish themselves. Discussing politics can sometimes expose how selfish someone is and what they think of others all in the same conversation... and when politics is discussed people really start talking about it a lot.
I'll add that in my head I include little politics like small organizations not just national politics.
A few years ago I started trying to improve myself. I quit drinking, quit smoking, and tried to start working on some of my bad habits like over eating. One of the hardest parts about changing yourself is realizing that the world stays the same, and that you have adjust your expectations of others.
I’d love to hear more on this. I’ve also steadily improved my health. First losing 60 lbs of fat, then eating healthier, then doing cardio regularly, then going mostly vegetarian, then weightlifting regularly. But I guess my friends are generally pretty healthy so I don’t feel much of a conflict. Are you friends and family heavy drinkers and smokers?
My friend group lost someone to a drug overdose a couple of years ago. It affected us all in different ways, I got sober, others have changed their lives in different ways. One example is that I was able to quit smoking with relative ease, my wife has had a much more difficult time. It's not so much that my friend group are drug users or alcoholics, we all just liked to party, but I have to remind myself that we're all on our own journey and I can't judge others because they didn't handle the situation the same way that I did.
That’s really tough. Thank you for sharing.
I don’t think I’ll ever quite understand what it’s like to quit smoking. I have a close friend who has been struggling with that for years. It is clearly very hard for him to stop.
I read the article and still don't fully grasp it. My gist was that their experiment was basically a game theory setup that tested generosity vs. selfishness, and they found that generous (G) people prefer playing with other G people, and selfish (S) people prefer playing with other S people.
Which is counterintuitive, because I would think that G and S both prefer G, and neither prefer S.
So is the insight that people prefer people who they think share their same model of behavior and therefore can have predictable, stable interactions with?
I’m not sure it’s totally relevant to the article, but I’ve seen a similar phenomenon with my family playing boardgames, especially Catan. Some of us are generous and willing to trade more freely, but some of us are much more ruthlessly tactical and will refuse to trade (even if it’s for a significant advantage) with whoever is closest to victory. The generous traders don’t like the ruthless tactics because it feels mean when the game should be about fun. And the selfish players don’t like when people are generous with trades (even if they’re generous towards them) because they feel the game should be played strategically and with optimal decisions.
It’s not totally the same thing, but I’ve seen it enough that your expected outcome tables caught my attention in that way.
I wonder if moral envy explains a bit of this. Moral envy being envious of another's (usually higher) set of moral standards, the example here being generosity.
The selfish is envious of the generous's ability to be generous, and thus is repulsed by them.
I think what you proposed is also true, about predictability of behavior of someone more similar as you. I suggest there might be some suspicion, doubt towards the generous person by someone selfish. They don't understand how/why they would be generous, "there's gotta be a catch" type feeling involved, and rather not deal with the indebted-ness that can result from generosity. Those who are selfish probably don't want that burden of the obligation to give back.
I think it goes both ways. Both are repulsed by the other, but that does not necessarily mean there's envy either way. Some selfish people consider being selfish the right attitude, they may think of generous as "sucker" and another selfish as an equal adversary, and to them taking advantage of each others are just fair game. It's not usual but prioritizing self benefit is also a moral framework, one that to these people they are the superior.
I’d love for them to explore more of the idea of ‘toxic selflessness,’ where another person acts selfless, and any time you act in your own interests they identity you as a maverick, and people can use this to pressure and manipulate others into fulfilling their interests (masquerading as the greater good) as a result of this attitude.
I had a mentor that would constantly reveal what a piece of shit he was through his opinions and prior actions when he was younger.
Slowly over time, as I didn't affirm his actions as "normal" he began to hate me (I made sure not to seem judgemental, I just didn't "agree").
Ended up doing his best to fuck over my career in the end, not really a surprise.
Makes sense, that's the idea of the Golden Rule.
I didn't think this extended both ways. I've definitely started to notice that the people with the most cynical view of politicians are usually kind of awful people. Politics is just the way I notice it because people like to talk about it.
You reminded me of one of my favourite lines from one of my favourite musicals (into the woods). The witch calls the rest not good, not bad, just nice.
I’m not OP but I’ll have a crack at it:
“Politics is just the way I notice (this phenomenon) because people like to talk about (politics)”
Or to elaborate, OP comes across this concept (that generous and selfish people prefer generous and selfish people respectively) most often when political discussions are happening, because that’s when people are more likely to share the types of opinions that OP uses to categorise them as generous or selfish.
But now I’m putting words in their mouth…
Cynicism and skepticism aren't the same thing. I'm all for skepticism.
That's just where I've noticed the connection between a person assuming others are selfish and being selfish themselves. Discussing politics can sometimes expose how selfish someone is and what they think of others all in the same conversation... and when politics is discussed people really start talking about it a lot.
I'll add that in my head I include little politics like small organizations not just national politics.