I was brusque with my family today
Most of my family members (notably everyone in the older generation) are variously xenophobic (very), transphobic (plenty) and racist (enough). They're openly right wing populist party voters. In family gatherings, or even in online messaging, I normally ignore them or try to divert the conversation away from their stupid political takes - even the ones who know I am pansexual are likely to say some nasty shit, showing (I believe) that they don't have a drop of respect for me or my gay brother. There is nothing I can ever convince them of, political or not, because (I believe) they will always treat my arguments with disdain, regardless of any reason or evidence. I don't think much better of their politics myself, since I find most of their constant complaining about entire classes of people they've never even interacted with incredibly tiresome, not to mention wholly inconsistent with their supposed christian values (I know, this situation sounds very american, even though I am not.)
I personally believe there is some value in some, but not all, arguments that are for restricting or reorganizing immigration at this time, mainly due to problems stemming from years of lazy policymaking, and in some right wing fiscal policy (we have some extremely expensive and inefficient government programmes right now - NOT health or education - and misguided protectionism of certain huge and mismanaged private companies), so we can usually meet on that common ground.
Today at a gathering an aunt decided out of the blue to loudly proclaim how happy she was that Donald Trump was elected in the US. Other relatives quickly agreed, after which they started a conversation about how a Trump presidency will be good for the economy. At this point I will just politely say I didn't understand what they were talking about (my thoughts weren't as kind at the time); we are not americans, and I have the notion that Trump is an isolationist who admires dictators and despises the EU and doesn't value us as allies; I am led to believe he wants to do things with regard to defense, tariffs, etc. that are unambiguously bad for us and will directly translate into a harder life and more danger for Europeans over the next few years.
A younger relative then said he was happy that we finally had "an insane dictator" on "our side". According to him, none of the crazy authoritarians in the world respected a man like Biden, but they were wary of Trump, since Trump is unpredictable. I remember hearing this argument eight years ago, but I'm not so sure of this. Historically, as I said, Trump seems to me to fawn over strongmen and demagogues leading other nations, while he hasn't exactly conveyed that he is "on our side". As far as I know, he's been suspiciously an enabler of Vladimir Putin, for instance.
So at this point I explained to my family that we weren't there to discuss politics and the politics conversation was to end immediately or I was going to start insulting people.
I'd like you all to tell me if I'm in the wrong here. Am I out of touch? Can you explain my family's perspective to me in a way that makes them sound less insane? This isn't some kind of bait. Just because I don't like Donald Trump (and neither do the majority of people in this community, AFAIK), I pride myself in being a fairly rational person. I can be convinced of things, as long as there's rationally constructed argument underpinning them. Maybe there's some value to their position?
Nothing you've said sounds wrong to me. I can at least see why Trump is appealing to a low-information American voter. I have no idea how "America First" can sound good to anyone who doesn't live in America.
Yeah... I agree. I'm really hoping someone will have an informative, sensible take on why these relatives of mine would be so keen on Trump. Or at least more sensible than "I like that he's crazy." I'm not that involved with american politics so there's a lot that I don't know; I was hoping Trump or his staff might actually have some kind of promise or macroeconomical effect that is beneficial for my otherwise craziness-starved family.
"I like that he's crazy", charitably interpreted means "I like how he doesn't have a clear line which enemies can tiptoe right up to without repercussion, and I'm hopeful that enemies will therefore be more broadly respectful of our rights as a result."
Think like Putin and his " crazy" threats to drop nukes - it's slowed down aid tremendously.
You’ve had amazing restraint with people who are unwilling to do the same for you. I have no real insight for you. People will always find a way to be right, ever moving the goalpost. At this point, goalpost has been moved so many times that I can no longer see the starting point. Watching my country hurtle to this fiery end breaks my heart. I see what fear has wrought and am sorry your family has decided to idolize it. Be safe.
Couldn't agree more and it brings this phrasing to mind that I have internalized this year (for other reasons):
"The more empathy you have for those that hurt you, the less empathy you have for yourself."
You're not in the wrong at all. I'd say you've been far too kind for too long about this, honestly.
Conservatives, and Trump supporters especially, are driven pretty much entirely by emotion and impulse, at least in regards to their sociopolitical beliefs. I think the authoritarian personality is coming into play here - for people with that mindset, anyone who is "disloyal" or questions their leader is subject to an intense emotional reaction. My family is pretty much entirely the same way, and even though at times they can be lead to think some things through logically, it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things - they didn't come to their viewpoints from reasoning or logical methods, and they therefore won't separate from their viewpoints via any reasoning or logical method.
You cannot reason someone out of a position that they did not reason themselves into. You have remarkable restraint and I'm frankly surprised at your willingness to even be in the same room as those people. Family or not.
If my family were that toxic, I would not socialize with them and I would tell them very bluntly why. I do not tolerate bigotry.
A valid position. You know, the weird thing is, my family has a lot of qualities. They generally get along. In most things, they're intelligent, knowledgeable, enterprising, kind, and charitable. They worked, or work, hard for their kids and each other; never had anything handed to them at all. They do nice things expecting nothing in return. They volunteer their time or money for strangers. They have lots of friends. And I certainly wouldn't want to distance myself for my various young nephews.
As you can imagine, that makes it even more infuriating (and sometimes, as today, frankly creepy) that their political opinions are so damn stupid.
People do be complicated haha.
Either way, sorry you have to deal with that, and good luck for future family gatherings.
I don't think I can add a whole lot that hasn't already been said. Your restraint up until this point has been remarkable, especially on account of you and your brother's identities being disregarded for so many years. Standing one's ground is admirable. I don't know that you could have done that in a different way than this. You were not wrong to say it.
I can relate a bit so I'll share an experience if that's okay.
I thankfully only have one family member who is that far to the right, my mom's cousin who thankfully lives on the other side of the planet. He visited one time 10 years ago over Christmas and spewed the most homophobic, racist nonsense I have ever heard in my entire life. Back then, I tried to remain as neutral as possible and tried to ask him questions about why he has these opinions (one of them is that homosexuals are unnatural and should all be sent to an island to live there for themselves*). Family wanted to keep the peace though and insisted that there just won't be political talk during family gatherings, birthdays, holidays, etc.
I have thought a lot about him since then though. I would in no way shape or form have the same restraint as I do now. I would not hold back, in any way, even if I am so overwhelmed that tears start flowing. I would keep going until everyone in the room - including the entire rest of my family who does not hold these opinions - were shamed into having a relationship with him.
Nobody seems to have given it a second thought that none of his four kids are in his life anymore. He hasn't had contact with them in decades - there's only one thing a father can do to his children that makes all of them cut him off, but for some reason this has remained unsaid, just like the homophobia and racism, all for "keeping the peace". I think it's because everyone in my family comes from a position of privilege. Solid middle if not upper middle class, cis, straight, white, etc.. nobody has really had anyone in their lives that wasn't all of those things too. So I get where they are coming from. I kind of understand it. They are not used to this type of thing..
I hope that I would say this even if I weren't queer, but I will not ever knowingly associate with someone like that ever again and I will not be quiet about it. Fuck keeping the peace. Make people feel bad for being shitty humans.
*remind anyone of anything?
I'm late to the thread... but wow, Trumpism among non Americans. I'm surprised and not surprised at the same time.
I think you answered your own question at the beginning of your post, you said they're racist, xenophobic, homophobic, etc.. Trump, and his supporters, loudly enable and glorify those perspectives in a world that has recently spent decades trying to phase them out.
To maybe state the obvious, the emotion at the heart of racism and xenophobia and friends is fear.
I think we're really talking about the basic appeal of authoritarian strongmen rather than Trump specifically and they invariably use fear and disillusionment to sell their message. Fear of the other (immigrants, deviants), fear of losing what we have, fear of lack of control and so on.
So it could be that what your family is feeling is fear.
Conservatives all over have good reason to feel that their worldview is under attack, it absolutely is. Has been for decades, the western world has been trying hard to get past bigotry. Trump and similar authoritarians (or fascists or dictators or just extreme right wing figureheads) give a voice to people who feel like their identity is under attack. It converts their insecurity into a feeling of strength.
Identity is tricky, it sits really close to self preservation and self preservation kicks in way before the forebrain gets a say. No doubt none of your xenophobic family members know that fear is what they're feeling, which means there's no reasoning that's going to happen, especially in a group setting. You're absolutely right to just avoid politics with them.
Also sorry you have to deal with that. Hateful family members suck.
I'm pretty sure you're right about fear. I've thought that myself.
Those negative traits are far from everything about them though and I don't remember it being this bad eight years ago (no one felt the need to bring the subject up like this). I do recall reading about pro-Trump marches in Japan, though, so I guess trumpism exists everywhere, sadly.
I didn't have any particular advice or thoughts to offer that haven't already been addressed by others, but I just read this and thought of you and your relationship with your family.
Please take your well-being and that of people you care about as your first priority, and let the rest go by.
Thanks. I read the whole thing.
Since I made this post I had two more social events. Both of these were just people from my generation (different each time). In both of them there were people happily parroting the stuff you'd expect (but not me). Oh, no, we hate Trump, of course. But how good it is that fanatical wokeism was finally defeated! Kamala wasn't a valid candidate because there were no primaries, and therefore Trump was the only choice. Something about Epstein too, and systemic corruption. And the economy again.
Someone else was almost yelling basically the same things I wrote above at one point, which shut down the conversation, but he didn't change anyone's minds. I couldn't muster the energy because you really can't use reason to defeat unfounded arguments.
This is getting ridiculous and tiresome. That guy really brings out the worst in everyone, doesn't he? My regard for some of my acquaintances is in freefall, and I wish they would just keep their stupid takes to themselves and talk about their kids like they used to until last month.
That was a very meaningful read. As someone else with a familial experience similar to OP, thank you for sharing it!