11 votes

Charlie Kirk's murder reveals a cultural sickness (Just Asking Questions podcast episode)

20 comments

  1. [18]
    unkz
    Link
    A bit understated. Kirk vehemently hated transgender people, publicly and clearly. https://www.advocate.com/politics/charlie-kirk-anti-lgbtq-quotes#rebelltitem5

    enraged by Kirk's supposed "hatred."

    A bit understated. Kirk vehemently hated transgender people, publicly and clearly.

    https://www.advocate.com/politics/charlie-kirk-anti-lgbtq-quotes#rebelltitem5

    Charlie Kirk declares that "the transgender thing happening in America" is "a throbbing middle finger to God" and then proceeds to deadname Lia Thomas and tell her "you're an abomination to God" while the congregation applauds.

    44 votes
    1. [5]
      DeaconBlue
      Link Parent
      I grew up in a church where that particular brand of hate spewing was (and is) common, but absolutely none of the people in the church consider it "hatred". They believe (and I genuinely think...

      I grew up in a church where that particular brand of hate spewing was (and is) common, but absolutely none of the people in the church consider it "hatred". They believe (and I genuinely think some of them believe it) that saying things like this is a way to show the church's version of "love".

      The logic is something like:

      • Person is doing The Thing that the community (read: church) does not like
      • Make the person feel shunned as much and as loudly as possible from the community for doing The Thing
      • Person stops doing The Thing because being alienated sucks
      • The community stops publicly berating them and invites them back into the community
      • Person joins the community and is able to get everlasting life in the glow of the deity

      I bet if you could ask Charlie Kirk, his response would be something like "I don't hate you, I hate your sins and want you to wash them away with the blood of Jesus" or something.

      That layer of internal logic redirection has been used for my entire lifetime in my hometown to try to get people to stop reading Harry Potter, or drinking alcohol, or being queer, or pick a thing. This brand of manipulation works really well in rural communities where there just aren't other groups of people to be around. If half of the town goes to the same church and you're put on public display, you can't go to the grocery store without being shunned because everywhere you go someone from the church is there.

      38 votes
      1. sparksbet
        Link Parent
        This is true of most conservative Christians who share Kirk's views, as I can attest from having grown up in that environment myself as well (though luckily not as isolated as I would've been in a...

        I bet if you could ask Charlie Kirk, his response would be something like "I don't hate you, I hate your sins and want you to wash them away with the blood of Jesus" or something.

        This is true of most conservative Christians who share Kirk's views, as I can attest from having grown up in that environment myself as well (though luckily not as isolated as I would've been in a rural community). But I think you're underestimating how inflammatory Kirk was more generally. I wouldn't necessarily bet against you on this, but I don't think it's as safe a bet as you think it is.

        (Also shoutout to my mom for accidentally being woke in advance by not letting me read Harry Potter as a kid lol)

        13 votes
      2. [2]
        raze2012
        Link Parent
        Seems to fall apart when that "sin" is the color of your skin. As is lately. Can't exactly suddenly become white.

        Seems to fall apart when that "sin" is the color of your skin. As is lately. Can't exactly suddenly become white.

        8 votes
        1. redwall_hp
          Link Parent
          Or not wanting to join a cult engaging in such abuse.

          Or not wanting to join a cult engaging in such abuse.

          8 votes
      3. dhcrazy333
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        Can confirm. Had a cousin who's side of the family became pretty religious while our side was not so religious. Growing up they would constantly try to put us down about how they didn't approve of...

        I bet if you could ask Charlie Kirk, his response would be something like "I don't hate you, I hate your sins and want you to wash them away with the blood of Jesus" or something.

        Can confirm. Had a cousin who's side of the family became pretty religious while our side was not so religious. Growing up they would constantly try to put us down about how they didn't approve of us or some of our actions. They would justify the prying and comments by saying "they cared about us and are just trying to save us". In their minds, they truly are doing the right thing by trying to get us to stop the "bad behavior" so we can go to heaven with them. They love us, they want us to make better choices so we can be saved.

        From a certain point of view, I get it. You see someone you actually care about doing some destructive behavior, you want to intervene so they don't ruin their lives. But there's a world of difference between someone potentially ruining their life through let's say, hard drug use or gambling addiction, vs. reading Harry Potter or playing Pokemon.

        Those who are in that religious mindset equate anything outside of that mindset as harmful and dangerous, and that's what they use to justify their actions. They also fail to understand the perspective from the opposite side. They never once consider how they would feel if someone from a different religious background started acting the same way towards them, belittling them, telling them their actions are terrible, etc. They would hand wave it off because in their mind they know with certainty that their worldview/religion is the correct one, so the person doing this to them is just misinformed. Basically a "it's ok when I do it because I'm actually right" situation.

        6 votes
    2. raze2012
      Link Parent
      The real culture sockness is being able to say "The Civil Rights act was a mistake" 60 years after its drafting and then the media is too spineless to say anything more than "supposed hatred"....

      The real culture sockness is being able to say "The Civil Rights act was a mistake" 60 years after its drafting and then the media is too spineless to say anything more than "supposed hatred".

      That same media swept the GOP messages under the rug while harping on reddit comments a Senate candidate made over a decade ago. Our "culture" was bought out by those who want to erase culture as a whole.

      18 votes
    3. [11]
      crulife
      Link Parent
      It's fascinating how people who are more-or-less on the same level intellectually and who essentially have access to the same information can form so many different opinions about the same person.

      It's fascinating how people who are more-or-less on the same level intellectually and who essentially have access to the same information can form so many different opinions about the same person.

      3 votes
      1. [3]
        donn
        Link Parent
        Well, people's access to information is somewhat selective but that said I do believe there is an intense effort from right-leaning media to downplay positions he was quite explicit about and...

        Well, people's access to information is somewhat selective but that said I do believe there is an intense effort from right-leaning media to downplay positions he was quite explicit about and proud of.

        15 votes
        1. [2]
          crulife
          Link Parent
          Reason is libertarian. Ezra Klein (who I picked here because he famously wrote an article about this) is center-left, Freddie deBoer (the guest in this podcast episode) is a Marxist. It's possible...

          Reason is libertarian. Ezra Klein (who I picked here because he famously wrote an article about this) is center-left, Freddie deBoer (the guest in this podcast episode) is a Marxist. It's possible though the deBoer did not exactly downplay Kirk's positions in this episode, but rather talked about the toxic online culture that contributed to Kirk's murder.

          3 votes
          1. rosco
            Link Parent
            I always hear Ezra Klein is center-left. But any policy he discusses outside of identity politics is center-right. I'd say he is a conservative who is ok with queer BIPOC folks as long as they are...

            I always hear Ezra Klein is center-left. But any policy he discusses outside of identity politics is center-right. I'd say he is a conservative who is ok with queer BIPOC folks as long as they are wealthy.

            9 votes
      2. [7]
        unkz
        Link Parent
        It's perhaps easier to understand when you contextualize it from Liz Wolfe's perspective, which is a person who would: rather homeschool her children rather than allow them to go to a school that...

        It's perhaps easier to understand when you contextualize it from Liz Wolfe's perspective, which is a person who would:

        • rather homeschool her children rather than allow them to go to a school that provides LGBTQ materials in the classroom source
        • says banning trans kids from the bathrooms of their gender is "what most New York parents want—especially the parents of young girls" source
        • platforms anti-trans activists like Jesse Singhal source

        I wouldn't say she is at the same level of anti-trans hysteria that Kirk was, but she's fairly sympathetic to his side.

        11 votes
        1. [6]
          crulife
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          Which is regarded as evil in some religious sense, I suppose?

          but she's fairly sympathetic to his side.

          Which is regarded as evil in some religious sense, I suppose?

          1. [4]
            TemulentTeatotaler
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            Good rhetoric and rationalizations require intelligence. Finding your position is different from supporting your position. The strongest abolitionist and pro-slavery voices both used scripture. I...

            Good rhetoric and rationalizations require intelligence. Finding your position is different from supporting your position. The strongest abolitionist and pro-slavery voices both used scripture. I can't claim to know all their motives, but a good guess would be having an economy built on chatel slavery has most doing it from self-interest instead of religion/ideology.

            By pointing out that Liz Wolfe probably shares the same positions about trans people as Charlie Kirk slipping in a "supposed" is expected. It waters down what is pretty blatant hate in calling trans people "an abomination to God", making her view more palatable. The same with "rampant celebration and dehumanization of a father and husband who was killed for the words he spoke."

            I haven't listened to the podcast and couldn't find a transcript. Did they bring up his support of Jack Posobiec (at least neo-nazi-curious), or the movie-length plug of Unhumans?

            ...it lauds Franco and Pinochet, and claims that "The book argues that leftists don’t deserve the status of human beings – that they are, as the title says, unhumans – and that they are waging a shadow war against all that is good and decent, which will end in apocalyptic slaughter if they are not stopped"

            It seems like that would be relevant to a Marxist guest.

            9 votes
            1. boxer_dogs_dance
              Link Parent
              Just noting that denying human status to a group of people is one of the stages of behavior that leads to genocide. Ten Stages of Genocide

              Just noting that denying human status to a group of people is one of the stages of behavior that leads to genocide. Ten Stages of Genocide

              16 votes
            2. [2]
              crulife
              Link Parent
              No, this is the first time I've seen or heard that name.

              I haven't listened to the podcast and couldn't find a transcript. Did they bring up his support of Jack Posobiec (at least neo-nazi-curious), or the movie-length plug of Unhumans?

              No, this is the first time I've seen or heard that name.

              2 votes
              1. TemulentTeatotaler
                Link Parent
                He's been a contributor, guest, and host for TPUSA for years. If you've seen eulogy-ish pieces for Kirk odds are he wrote them or is at least referenced.

                He's been a contributor, guest, and host for TPUSA for years. If you've seen eulogy-ish pieces for Kirk odds are he wrote them or is at least referenced.

                7 votes
          2. unkz
            Link Parent
            Sorry, what do you mean?

            Sorry, what do you mean?

  2. borntyping
    Link
    This seems exactly the perspective you might expect from a podcast named "Just Asking Questions" on a site named "Reason".

    This seems exactly the perspective you might expect from a podcast named "Just Asking Questions" on a site named "Reason".

    13 votes
  3. crulife
    Link
    In the final episode of Reason's Just Asking Questions, Liz Wolfe and Zach Weissmuller talk with Freddie deBoer (who is an American Marxist author) about Charlie Kirk and cultural sickness. It's...

    In the final episode of Reason's Just Asking Questions, Liz Wolfe and Zach Weissmuller talk with Freddie deBoer (who is an American Marxist author) about Charlie Kirk and cultural sickness.

    It's somewhat US-specific, but in many ways touches topics that are rising everywhere in the West at least. I thought the talk was quite interesting, with some kind of polar opposites on the same table talking quite sensibly. Brought a bit of hope to me at least.

    DeBoer's website is https://fredrikdeboer.com/

    5 votes