8 votes

Help me understand how I feel about a particular style of watch

There's a type of watch that's very popular. It has a clean, clear, design. It's definitely a classic. I have mixed feelings about it because of the origins of the design.

The watch is big. I has a black dial with white numbers and index marks. At the 12 o'clock position there's a triangle. There's plenty of lume on the dial. They usually have a leather strap, and that strap often has two rivets.

Sometimes the dial has two index rings, the inner ring has hour markings and the outer ring has minute markings.

IWC makes the most well known example: https://www.iwc.com/en/watch-collections/pilot-watches/iw329301-big-pilots-watch-43.html

There are lots of homages:

https://whamond.com/products/laco-watch-pilot-original-heidelberg-39-862094?variant=20123598716982&currency=GBP&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=google+shopping&gclid=CjwKCAiAp7GcBhA0EiwA9U0mtgW5zl3U-UDVpOj2xzQugfY8gjG7C01nWLIjDNRRPNV9C5Ybim0tFRoCrtUQAvD_BwE

https://www.jurawatches.co.uk/products/laco-watch-pilot-basic-aachen-42-861690-2?utm_medium=PPC&utm_campaign=Shopping&variant=10940401025060&sfdr_ptcid=3694_524_461850736&sfdr_hash=d57409f84f1ff15872832c2e5817a3ae&gclid=CjwKCAiAp7GcBhA0EiwA9U0mtpzVPcdQyfLtQzP4-E5jrfi5c7FKYtNrpJD8SnV0DqRqgYthNF70PBoCXgcQAvD_BwE

https://shop.diywatch.club/products/new-arrival-diy-watchmaking-kit-f01-lite-vintage-pilot-watch-with-date?variant=42068938358997

https://www.watchshop.com/watches/mens-sekonda-aviator-watch-3347.pdp

https://mwcwatches.com/products/vintage-ww2-style-german-pilots-watch-1

This style of watch is called "B Uhr", or "B Uhren"and you get many results if you use that search term. It's German, and it's an abbreviation for "Beobachtungs-uhren" which means "observation watch".

My problem with the watch is that is that it was specifically designed for the Luftwaffe in WW2.

https://monochrome-watches.com/the-history-of-the-pilot-watch-part-five-b-uhr/

After the war other airforces, including the British RAF, started using very similar watches.

Most watch sellers do not celebrate the Nazi history of the watch. But some do: https://b-uhr.com/en/collection/b-uhr-luftwaffe-flieger-chronograph.html

So, I don't know how I feel about this watch. Can its clean design be appreciated when I know of its Nazi link? Can I separate the creator from the product?

15 comments

  1. [6]
    Odysseus
    Link
    If the design doesn't reflect or reinforce the abhorrent aspects of Nazi ideology, I don't see what the issue would be. It would be one thing to be fixated specifically on the exact design that...

    If the design doesn't reflect or reinforce the abhorrent aspects of Nazi ideology, I don't see what the issue would be. It would be one thing to be fixated specifically on the exact design that the luftwaffe used, but at this point, you're so many deviations removed from the original that I can't see why there would be any problem appreciating it.

    It's a fairly utilitarian design. I'm sure the other Air Forces copied the design precisely for it's practicality. Unless there's something about big watches with black faces and leather straps that's explicitly tied to Nazi symbolism that I'm unaware of, this feels almost like looking for a reason to dislike something.

    9 votes
    1. [5]
      teaearlgraycold
      Link Parent
      And there are other modern things that have strong Nazi ties. The VW Beetle (to be fair, no longer in production) was commissioned by Hitler.

      And there are other modern things that have strong Nazi ties. The VW Beetle (to be fair, no longer in production) was commissioned by Hitler.

      4 votes
      1. [4]
        lou
        Link Parent
        There is the New Beetle though.

        There is the New Beetle though.

        1 vote
        1. [2]
          teaearlgraycold
          Link Parent
          Just in time for Neo Nazis!

          Just in time for Neo Nazis!

          3 votes
          1. lou
            Link Parent
            I've been in one, with a skilled driver that was unconcerned with safety or the law. He might be on several drugs but I'm not sure. It felt like we crossed the entire city in 10 minutes. It was...

            I've been in one, with a skilled driver that was unconcerned with safety or the law. He might be on several drugs but I'm not sure. It felt like we crossed the entire city in 10 minutes. It was fun, but I might have died. Decent sports car.

            1 vote
  2. NaraVara
    (edited )
    Link
    In the US these watches are generally sold under the more generic name “Pilots watch” to avoid the association. That’s a bigger category than just this though, but this is probably the most...

    In the US these watches are generally sold under the more generic name “Pilots watch” to avoid the association. That’s a bigger category than just this though, but this is probably the most classic design. Sometimes they’ll call it a “flieger” if they want to nod at its origins without celebrating it.

    If it makes you feel better, you can think of it as looting the cultural artifacts of a vanquished enemy. Sort of like the officer’s katana my buddy has that his grandfather accepted in WWII when a Japanese officer surrendered to him.

    I suppose one small blessing is that modern fascists have trended towards garish and tacky aesthetic tastes instead of sharp and modern ones, so our grandkids won’t have this problem.

    5 votes
  3. NoblePath
    Link
    Modernism aesthetics are not specifically associated with fascism, regardless of origin. Much communist propaganda also has very appealing modern design as well, especially out of poland. I drive...

    Modernism aesthetics are not specifically associated with fascism, regardless of origin. Much communist propaganda also has very appealing modern design as well, especially out of poland.

    I drive a vw, a brand whose origins are clearly steeped in nazi culture, but i love it and i am unaware of any current fascism inherent in its design.

    That last example, though, is another matter. That’s disturbing to me. I once read a book by a commander of the luftwaffe. It was a clinical assessment of strategic failures, but extremely creepy. A guy at that level had to be on mission with hitler, and to so cleanly distill away any human empathy from his analysis was abhorrent.

    5 votes
  4. wervenyt
    (edited )
    Link
    In terms of where we draw the lines of acceptability, wearing fliegers is probably on the safe side. Hugo Boss is still a major brand name, as is VW, and those businesses are more problematic for...

    In terms of where we draw the lines of acceptability, wearing fliegers is probably on the safe side. Hugo Boss is still a major brand name, as is VW, and those businesses are more problematic for their current actions than their affiliations in WWII. The trace of 'fascism' to be found in the B-Uhr design language is really more in line with Bauhaus and grotesque architecture than the mock-traditionalist stuff of Nationalism. They're minimal, not severe.

    4 votes
  5. [5]
    lou
    Link
    I looked at the image. Unless you're in a room full of WII historians with a fashion sense, I don't think you'll get in any trouble. No offense to WWII historians, but that is not a large group....

    My problem with the watch is that is that it was specifically designed for the Luftwaffe in WW2

    I looked at the image. Unless you're in a room full of WII historians with a fashion sense, I don't think you'll get in any trouble. No offense to WWII historians, but that is not a large group.

    Personally, I wouldn't even think about it. But you're gonna wear it on your body, and if there's a chance you're not gonna use it out of embarrassment, maybe you shouldn't buy it.

    3 votes
    1. [4]
      NaraVara
      Link Parent
      Watch nerds will know.

      Watch nerds will know.

      1 vote
      1. [3]
        lou
        Link Parent
        Maybe. But will they disapprove of?

        Maybe. But will they disapprove of?

        3 votes
        1. [2]
          AugustusFerdinand
          Link Parent
          And does their (or anyone's) opinion matter at all to the wearer?

          And does their (or anyone's) opinion matter at all to the wearer?

          2 votes
          1. lou
            Link Parent
            That is very personal. To me, in that particular regard, very little. But it seems that it does matter to OP.

            That is very personal. To me, in that particular regard, very little. But it seems that it does matter to OP.

            1 vote
  6. silfilim
    Link
    The same question can be applied to the horrible things the creator did. Different lines of thinking will land on different answers, but it feels internally self-consistent to adopt the same line...

    Can I separate the creator from the product?

    The same question can be applied to the horrible things the creator did. Different lines of thinking will land on different answers, but it feels internally self-consistent to adopt the same line of thinking for good and bad outcomes.

    If you say that the direct intention behind the action is what matters, the watch may be acceptable and the horrible things may not be.

    3 votes