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When is validation good/bad?
The recent topic about vote counts being removed has sprung up some discussion about the nature of validation. Given that the comments over there seem to address the idea in the context of Tildes specifically, I figured I'd create an offshoot thread for a more philosophical discussion of the question at large.
- When is validation a good or bad thing?
- Is seeking validation fundamentally a bad thing?
- Is receiving validation for something great you've done fundamentally a good thing?
- What is your own relationship like with validation?
- Should platforms structurally encourage/discourage/balance methods for validation?
I feel compelled to share Validation. It's almost as old as the internet now, but it does make a good point about positive feedback. It's such a good short that even youtube's comments can't suck in its presence, and maybe that's the lesson to take to heart here.
You are fantastic.
You shared such a wonderful video.
It was just perfect for this thread.
Great job!
Amazing!
This was great! Thank you for sharing. I appreciate its optimism.
Wow. Never saw that before.
I mean validation is baked in to just about every human interaction. You read body language, tone, etc all to get a sense of how you're being perceived and if what you say is in fact worthwhile/interesting. The most obnoxious people usually don't pickup on these ques or choose to ignore them.
That said, I like this change, at least as a temporary thing, the perspective change is refreshing. Having it as a reoccurring thing every once in a while would be nice, keep it intersting/fresh.
I mean I certainly like validation, as we all do, but I think ultimately the pursuit of validation on a discussion-focused website is a bad thing. It encourages people to only say the "right" thing, avoid controversy, post low-effort stuff, etc. Which is a very boring way to have a discussion.
FWIW, the validation I get here from seeing upvotes on my comments is different from the validation I get from reddit. On reddit it's trivial to get upvotes. On sites like tildes or HN, it takes a lot more effort and it feels like more of an accomplishment. 15 upvotes here is worth more than a hundred on reddit as far as I'm concerned.
I already kind of miss seeing upvotes. Without upvotes I have no way of knowing if anyone is even reading what I say unless they reply to it. But, maybe the lack of upvotes will encourage more comments and fix that problem.
That last part is my biggest hope. I can't speak for others, but now that I know voting won't get seen, I catch myself voting on something, realizing the poster won't see it, and writing a comment as well. Though I was already someone who would comment on posts so I don't know I'm the best example
A therapist once told me: there's no such thing as self-esteem (appreciation from yourself), only hetero-esteem (appreciation from others). Our self-appreciation is a product of the appreciation of others. Self-help tapes, mantras and prayers won't do any good: the only way really to build self-esteem is by doing worthy things. We can never change that, only find healthier ways to deal with it.
I believe that.
I constantly find myself seeking validation, every time I post a selfie, every time I link my friends to my creative endeavors--even as I realize I'm doing it I hate it and yet I still do it. It makes me constantly question my own motivations; am I doing <X> because I actually enjoy it, or because I'm status-hunting and want to signal that I do <X>, or because people tell me that I'm good at <X>?
It's exhausting and I wish I'd stop but to some degree I question whether I even have an internal locus for happiness or if it's all just status games. (I'm also probably more than a little burned out at work and that is exacerbating things.)
This is a really great point. I think some people see validation as coming after the fact from actions that they would have otherwise taken, while some prioritize validation before their actions and thus allow it to guide them. I also think there's a broad gray area between the two, as many of us probably lean one way or another depending on the situations and environments we're in. Furthermore, it can be very difficult to know our own motivations. Am I good at something because it's an innate skill, or because people encouraged me, or because I practiced at it because I genuinely enjoy it, or because I practiced at it because I wanted positive feedback from others? Self-reflection of that type is tough and often opaque. I feel that I'm a fairly secure person who appreciates but doesn't seek validation, but is that really true? I don't know. Maybe I'm just lying to myself.
That said, I don't know if you should be too hard on yourself. I question whether it's possible to even have social interaction without validation in the first place. At a very basic level, the idea that someone is interacting with you carries an implicit message that you are worth interacting with. Being seen/heard is more validating than being ignored.
Plus, I think there's genuine worth in being validated, and it isn't fundamentally hollow. For example, my dog validates me every single day I come home from work, and I return the favor. We're both better for it! That's not saying all validation is good (especially when you add in aspects of social comparison), but that it doesn't have to be a bad thing.
Like Schopenhauer said, everybody seeks to avoid disdain or humiliation and the validation from others. The wise man must distinguish between his own value and the value bestowed upon him externally. Vanity is the basis of the will for acknowledgment. Happiness is not to be sought by the recognition of others because it is ever changing and fluctuating.
I dislike upvotes; refreshing to see them gone. I think we need to break out of the accursed cycle of validation seeking in online communities. There's more to posting than just anticipating how others will react to you.